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We are not sustainable And neither is any other device maker. This industry is full of “feel good” messaging, but generates 50 million metric tons of e-waste each year. We believe the best way to reduce environmental impact is to create products that last longer, meaning fewer new ones need to be made. Instead of operating on feels, we operate on data and actions. With funding from Intel, we commissioned Fraunhofer IZM to do a detailed life cycle analysis (LCA) on Framework Laptop 13 to help us understand where we are today and where we can continue to improve. Check out our thoughts on reducing environmental impact and download the LCA report here…
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(Almost) Everything is greenwashing because ultimately that’s what consumers want. They don’t really care about making something more environmentally friendly, they simply want to feel better with false claims and splashy marketing.
The whole environmental angle that FW are taking seems OK, but if they are too expensive or don’t make a good product or fall behind the competition, then it simply won’t work. I just found out my old laptop shit the bed, so I would absolutely take a serious look at what FW offers.
One of the things I absolutely hate about their marketing material is this idea that you can buy a module that adds a X port or Y connector to the laptop. Just build those ports into the goddamn laptop from the get go. Every extra module you add, every extra seam on the chassis, every extra cable there is, is an extra failure point in thw product and for something that is mobile, that’s not a great thing. I like the repairability angle they are pushing, but if all the extra modules introduce more failures then you won’t have happy customers.
I’ll tell you what Framework’s IO modules truly are: Dongles.
They plug into USB-C ports on the mainboard, just like the bundle of IO dongles a Mac user has to lug around. But in Framework’s case, they’re “inboard.” They snap into the chassis of the Laptop to present the form factor of a built-in port. So unlike pigtail form factor dongles that stick out of the machine, you can leave them plugged in while the laptop is in your bag.
And because the module is supported by the chassis, that relieves the strain on the USB-C port itself, so if you drop the laptop with something plugged into a module, it might break the module but not the mainboard. Modules are cheaper and easier to replace than the mainboard.
Having used the expansion modules on my framework. I’m kind of in love with them. They remove all cable stress from the motherboard. Because of the modularity, I can just plug in an external disk to boot off of, if I want to run Windows, or a special operating system, and pull the disc out seamlessly through the expansion port.
I didn’t think I’d like them, but I really do. The modularity is undersold, day-to-day driving it’s great. No complaints about them whatsoever.
I think one criticism that Louis Rossman has that I agree with is more ports. I get that the modularity makes it so you can swap things in and out easily but I wish I could have way more ports like my thinkpad.
These laptops look extremely affordable and I like how modular they are. The next time I need to replace my laptop I’ll probably go with Framework.
When i ordered mine, they didnt have a US version. So i ordered a German model, and a keyboard (the German Model was overstock and discounted). And just swapped the keyboard.
It took about 30 minutes and probably 100 screws but it was simple.
My laptop is 4 years old at this point. I spent $2400 on it before I wanted something future proof, and while it’s still plenty fast with it’s 10th gen Intel processor and 32gb ram, knowing that I could drop $500 and upgrade to the latest AMD or Intel chip makes me wish I could have held out another year and gotten the framework.
Given that we’ve more or less peaked in terms of non-gaming performance I probably won’t be buying another laptop until this one dies but my next laptop will be a framework without question as well.
There will certainly be things that make both games and non-games faster. We’re not at the limit of packaging density yet, and a lot of non-gaming workloads can take more advantage of multiple cores. Games tend to only take advantage of the number of cores available to them in whatever the latest generation of consoles have.
That said, laptops tend to get bounded by their ability to get rid of heat more than anything else. My Framework (an Intel 1280P) underclocks itself to 3GHz under sustained loads (from a max of 4.8GHz). Top end CPU is a bit of a waste with the amount of space it could possibly use to cool itself.
I like Framework and pre-ordered a F16 as soon as I heard pre-orders were open.
Overall, they seem to be doing the right things for long-term ownership and repairability. As new hardware manufacturers, they’re going to have a couple issues, just like their rechargeable bios battery design, but they’ve handled them well.
I would like them to open source their schematics, but they have contractual obligations preventing them from doing so, so making the schematics open after signing an NDA is a fair middle ground, and more than any other company will do. So kudos for that
I personally own a framework, and worked with them to fix a charging issue, and they did all the right things, professional, no issues at all.
One small issue that people seem to have, is their unwillingness to talk about core boot or libre boot, but that’s a small thing.
They are a startup, so you always have to question what revenue streams they’re envisioning long-term.
They’re my kind of crazy: I hope they succeed, at least I hope they start industry trend for repairability and long-term ownership.
I should add, no matter how much I agree with the company, I won’t do pre-orders. I know framework is my kind of crazy, I can’t encourage anybody to do a pre-order either.
I bought my framework from in stock series 13s.
There’s too much risk tying up capital for months, plus you lose your credit card protections, when it’s been over 30 days. If I buy an in stock unit, have it delivered, and it’s terrible, worst case scenario I do a credit card charge back. I’d lose that capability if I do a pre-order 345 months out.
It would be amazing if they succeeded. Would be nice to be able to grab the motherboard of your old laptop and recycle it into a home server type device, sell your display to someone that can easily use it for personal projects, etc.
If they do it right their old boards could be used for the kind of stuff people buy raspberry pi’s for as well.
That is already being done right now.
You can fashion your old Mainboard into a home server. For example by using their case made in collaboration with I think CooperMaster but you can also 3D print it yourself.
The displays are just standard eDP connectors. So anyone could use that as well with a cheap board.
Yeah, I saw hobbyists are doing it already, but it you could use mass produced cases to fit them in any form factor it opens up the possibility for long term use of motherboards that would end up scrapped otherwise.
100% agreed. If they could come up with some GPL3 framework foundation, that open source to schematic designs, after I don’t know 5 years. So the designs are older, but it’s open, so that people can fashion all of their devices into completely reusable modules. I’d love that.
They’re doing a reasonable job by open sourcing their interfaces, which is good.
One small issue that people seem to have, is their unwillingness to talk about core boot or libre boot, but that’s a small thing.
It’s a major issue for me - currently I’m keeping my old x230 alive, but eventually that’ll have to be replaced.
I’m running it with heads, which allows me to do secure boot under my control. I don’t really want to have my main notebook without that nowadays.
I don’t like any of the current notebook keyboards, so it’ll be a “build yourself” project anyway - and the framework mainboard would be nice as they keep the dimensions stable, even though I’m not a fan of some other hardware choices.
My impression of the GitHub discussion on core boot, was that it’s on their backlog. But one of the bug submitters was very vocal, would a commitments, and basically got the developers to close the issue kind of emotionally.
I think it’s something they want to do, long-term, but they’re not actively working on it.
Out of curiosity what are the other hardware issues?
Out of curiosity what are the other hardware issues?
I’m generally not a friend of their USB-C expansion modules - which is mainly due to lots of experience trying to expand older notebooks with USB stuff. USB is not designed for devices to keep a state over suspends, so depending on what kind of hardware you plug in you get interesting results. This may be better with current spec (at least I hope they fixed some of that stuff when they worked on USB-C docking), but given how much I’ve seen fail I don’t feel comfortable to fully rely on that.
I’d have preferred to have a few more mPCIe-slots (I think they just have one for the WLan module), and more storage slots (which I think they finally fixed with the latest mainboard version with two NVME slots). Also what they’ve done about the connection for the separate graphics card might solve my complaints about lack of mPCIe-slots.
If we not only look at the mainboard, but the complete notebook - I don’t like the keyboard, the screen, the case in general, and the fixed battery - but unfortunately all those are bad on pretty much any notebook younger than 10 years.
From linux perspective which is better, Framework or System76?
I have been looking to upgrade my laptop (i5-8250U) with something decent. I don’t game, so dont require heavy graphics that draws too much power.
My experience with Linux on my Framework has been pretty good but admittedly not perfect. If you want an idea you can check out the Arch Wiki’s Framework page. Personally I think the repairability and upgradability of Framework outweighs the marginal increased Linux support you get with System76 (assuming they have no issues), but Linux isn’t as big a priority for Framework as it is for System76.
System76 is a bit strange. Their laptops are more expensive than other windows brands, while offering Linux. I’m not sure if it’s really worth going with them, as a lot of other laptops ca work with Linux. Tho maybe I missed something about their laptops.
Framework I think I saw some Poole saying it has some issues running Linux with some component incompatibilities. Tho you may want to do more research, maybe even opening some reddit threads and dodging useless comments.
I honestly dont mind paying a bit premium to System76 if they have good quality and better support for Linux.
I have grown tired of the cheap hinges that have been plaguing laptops.
Yeah… I’m not sure about the quality being really better than competition. Tho maybe Linux support may be better depending on what components different laptops use.
I’m 90% sure all of System76’s offerings are rebadged Clevo laptops.
The system76 system at least assures you that it will work with Linux. There are some stories here and there about some laptop part not working beacuse of lack of support for Linux. Other than that i see no reason at all and likely any other laptop will work with linux as well , its just not as certain.
For Linux support alone, System76 is better, because Framework’s resolution is a bit awkward, whether it’s 13" or 16".
Will have to dig about this. One of my primary reasons I want to upgrade is my laptop has a shitty 720p (1344x768) resolution.
I am looking for an absolute gorgeous display for my next laptop since I have the money to spare.
I have toyed with the thought of framework laptops a few times. But the pricing is just too high. I rather buy used company laptops ~3 years afterwards and get way cheaper high quality laptop. Plus, buying used is pretty much always better than buying new in an environmental sense.
I say we celebrate their successes! Don’t let perfection be the enemy of progress; the fact that they’re trying to do something about sustainability is far more than can be said for most laptop manufacturers, and the more the industry sees them succeed, the more it will follow suite.
They’ve even went beyond what they promised iirc rather than delivering the bare minimum
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A modem!? Does your ThinkPad also have an IR blaster? 🤣
I feel like the modem held on in laptops far too long. By the Windows 95 era, most modems were just weird sound cards that put most of the work onto the CPU to convert the data into sounds. They were dirt cheap, so laptop manufacturers could keep them there for the hell of it.
Oh god I forgot those existed. They were always terrible, even for modem technology. I remember having to help my mom’s friend with her Emachine with one of those and the drivers were a trainwreck.
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Check what facts? No model number was provided. The ThinkPad spans decades. We don’t even know if this is an IBM era or Lenovo era Thinkpad.
That it has e-SATA would put it in the Lenovo-era, possibly one of the models that still had the IBM badging.
For the humor-impaired, there were also ThinkPads with an IrDA port too.
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Or they were making a joke about ridiculous things that engineers were putting in all kinds of random devices for a while there and you got huffy about it.
We don’t know your life or what you know. And not all of us are memorizing old laptop models or care enough to look them up.
Conversation can be light and fun and not all pedantic technical documents like we’ve all been replaced by machines already
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It’s not okay to make ironic comments damaging my post’s credibility.
By someone trying to make a casual joke to make conversation? Holy moly dude, tell me you don’t get much socializing in with less words next time.
It’s not useful for most, but for some it’s irreplaceable. Just like the old serial port. For most people it feels archaic, but for industrial use it’s as present as USB is. ThinkPads cater to a huge audience, consisting mostly of technical people.
It’s unfortunate that the Framework modules aren’t quite big enough. They can’t put two USB-A ports side by side on one module, and there apparently isn’t enough room for the USB hub electronics, anyway. Just a bit wider and they’d make it.
Still the best laptop I’ve owned.
To be fair, all these ports put together can’t match a single USB-4 in bandwidth. And I get they are pretty useful to avoid dongles, but I bet your ThinkPad (with that many ports I’m guessing a W or T, maybe 30 series?) weights more than a framework and a competent USB-C hub.
(But I love the ergonomics of old ThinkPads, that’s why my x201 gets almost as much use as my T480)
I am not in the market for a new laptop at the moment, but my next one is very likely to be a Framework. At least if they decide to add Nordic keyboard and support shipping to Denmark.
Last I checked some months ago they haven’t entered the EU market and don’t have near term plans to :(
They also don’t recommend importing as that kind of defeats the purpose seeing as you’ll be unable to easily source parts or even get support, maintenance or warranty
They are active in some EU countries
I know. That is partly why I don’t intend to buy one before they support the EU.
Yeah that’s my attitude as well. I have no need for a laptop at the moment. It’s a want, but I have bigger expenses to worry about at the moment. In a year or two when I feel like it’s time I’ll likely go with them.
The number one problem of modern appliance is indeed longevity I’d say. The so called “planned obsolescence” is probably what mainly drives or consumption of electronics and, accordingly, our production of e-waste. But Framework might just be saying that for green washing purposes.
They don’t have the specs that I want, so… Not for me.
Are components replacable, repairable and upgradable because that is a pretty major thing in extending the lifetime of a device
That’s their whole deal. The computer is designed to be repairable by the end user as a first principle. It’s easy to disassemble, easy to replace or swap components, and they have a store where you can buy replacement or upgrade parts.
Yes they are
yes, that’s their whole selling point
The entire laptop is user serviceable, including replacing the Motherboard/CPU with a newer model, or even switching between Intel and AMD now. New 16in model will have upgradable discrete GPU.
I’ve never used one of their computers or even seen one in the flesh, but from what I’ve seen they look cool and I will consider them next time I need a new laptop. But for now I’ll reduce e-waste by using my old Acer Chromebook with Linux until it kicks the bucket.
This should be the mandatory way for all computing. Hell, all products
I contacted them about putting the Sipeed Lichee Pi 4A RISC-V SoM in… but they seemed unenthusiastic…
Not everyone is riding the hyperbole in tech.
