Buddy, half your comment history is whining about non-voters costing Harris the election, and you’re gonna turn around and say, “less people voted for Bernie, deal with it?” Bernie had the entire party lined up to block him; name another candidate the party has done that to. Meanwhile, Harris had a level playing field with Trump and he wiped the floor with her.
Face it- if she can’t win an election then that’s on her. And this is coming from someone who voted for her in 2024. People seriously need to wake up and either start voting en masse in the general elections or realize that America is just not that moderate.
or realize that America is just not that moderate.
I think we can look at the House of Representatives for a better representation of how moderate/progressive the electorate is. Where a statewide or national election requires a lot of money, a single district is much more accessible for a candidate with a smaller staff to campaign in.
I think the real crux of our problem is the distance between how people feel about individual progressive policies vs how they feel about progressive people who espouse all those policies. The right has been very successful at linking the culture war issues to progressives and demonizing them as SJWs, to distract from actual policy proposals.
I don’t think that’s entirely correct. If what you were saying about progressive politicians were true, Bernie Sanders would not be the most popular politician in the country. I think the real problem is that the Democrats are no longer credible messengers of a working class message. I think that’s why Dan Osborne won by not only running as an independent, but flat out rejecting the local Democrats endorsement.
Also, it’s important to remember that it was the centrists who pivoted towards culture war issues when they no longer had a progressive economic message they could run on. As Hillary Clinton said during the 2016 primary:
If we broke up the big banks tomorrow…would that end racism? Would that end sexism? Would that end discrimination against the LGBT community? Would that make people feel more welcoming to immigrants overnight?
Bernie is the most popular politician in the country? Regardless though, what popularity he has does not extend to all people who espouse progressive ideas, so other factors are at play.
I also don’t see that as a pivot as much as a slow march towards equal rights that dems have been fighting for for decades. And even so, it does not have much to do with the messaging strategy employed by the right. We’re not fighting against facts, we’re fighting against a messaging framework that paints progressive people as bad while ignoring the content of progressive policy proposals.
Yeah, Bernie is routinely ranked the most popular politician in America. I think it’s also worth noting that, while conservative messaging is very good at making figures like AOC seem radical or extreme, it does the same to centrist figures like Pelosi or Obama; Republicans convinced themselves that Obama was a communist for continuing Bush’s bank bailouts and implementing Mitt Romney’s Healthcare plan. No matter what the Democrats do, the Republicans will paint them as radical leftists, so they might as well go for bold, popular policy agendas like Medicare for All or a $20 minimum wage rather than small incremental changes that voters don’t understand or care about.
No matter what the Democrats do, the Republicans will paint them as radical leftists, so they might as well go for bold, popular policy agendas like Medicare for All or a $20 minimum wage rather than small incremental changes that voters don’t understand or care about.
It is non-voters. Whether they’re left leaning or center or whatever really doesn’t matter. They’re going to get it one way or the other. They had a chance to drive the car more left but decided it wasn’t worth showing up so now it’s going full speed right wing back to the 50s and worse.
Congrats?
I mean, you’re basically making my point. People who don’t vote decide the election with their inaction. Whether it was not coming out for Bernie or not coming out for Kamala, it’s the same thing.
So yes, thank you for proving my point better than I could. I appreciate the assist.
Bonus- Bernie finished behind Kamala in Vermont. So let’s not act like progressivism is some silver bullet here.
Buddy, you’re proving mine. If Bernie’s loss in the primary is proof that Americans aren’t that progressive, then Harris and Hillary’s losses in the general prove that Americans aren’t that centrist. You can’t have it both ways.
So that would mean that the majority of the electorate is far-right, which would make no sense given how strongly progressive ballot measures overperformed against the Harris campaign, or why Bernie polled more favorably against Trump than Clinton or Biden. Somehow, Americans would have disliked centrist and progressive politicians and like far-right politicians, but for some reason prefer progressive policies, and also favor the most high profile progressive in the Senate…or, Occam’s Razor, people prefer progressives, but the Democrats keep rat-fucking them in the primaries in favor of centrists.
I’m sorry, but I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make here. Harris ran to the center, Trump ran to the far-right. If people who consider themselves moderate or centrist voted for him, that just indicates that even people who think of themselves as being in the middle politically aren’t interested in the Democrats centrism anymore. Anyway, I’m not trying to be a jerk, I’m just not sure where you’re coming from here.
I used to think that, but really he won the center voter. He appealed on jobs, and inflation, and manufacturing, and all those things that are center. He really did get the center voter.
We can bemoan that people should be smarter to see through the BS (and I think most people on lemmy can see through it), but people aren’t and Trump won the center voter.
Trump did a better job appealing to the center than Harris did. Harris relied on the left showing up for abortion rights and for democracy, and they didn’t show up.
I used to think that, but really he won the center voter. He appealed on jobs, and inflation, and manufacturing, and all those things that are center. He really did get the center voter.
It sounds like you’re just making up justifications for the party not moving to the left in the future.
I used to think that, but really he won the center voter. He appealed on jobs, and inflation, and manufacturing, and all those things that are center. He really did get the center voter.
These aren’t centrist issues, these are just…issues. Like, jobs isn’t left, right, or center. It’s just something that matters to people. But trying to solve it by deporting 13 million people is far right.
You know you remind me of a conversation I had with someone else. I told him that I wanted environmental policy, but that environmental platforms didn’t win elections. He couldn’t comprehend separating those out. To him you had to think that environmental policy was good and think it won elections. Or if you said environmental policy didn’t win elections, well to him that meant you personally didn’t want environmental policies. He had to group those two together. He was literally unable to separate them out. Well that’s exactly like you, just on different issues.
It makes perfect sense when you realize places like Missouri and Florida voted for abortion rights yet also voted for Republicans and trump all over too.
And again, there’s no big magical force keeping progressives out of winning primaries. They just don’t. So again, my point, either people aren’t that progressive or progressives fucking suck at voting. Either way, same result.
Moreover, we’ll use your metric of progressive policies winning over Harris and analyze why she won more over Bernie himself. Must mean people are more moderate right?
And again, if that’s the case, then centrists are even suckier at voting, because they keep fucking losing even harder. And it still doesn’t explain when progressive preform so much better in elections where Democrats can’t put their thumb on the scales for centrists.
Buddy, half your comment history is whining about non-voters costing Harris the election, and you’re gonna turn around and say, “less people voted for Bernie, deal with it?” Bernie had the entire party lined up to block him; name another candidate the party has done that to. Meanwhile, Harris had a level playing field with Trump and he wiped the floor with her.
Face it- if she can’t win an election then that’s on her. And this is coming from someone who voted for her in 2024. People seriously need to wake up and either start voting en masse in the general elections or realize that America is just not that moderate.
I think we can look at the House of Representatives for a better representation of how moderate/progressive the electorate is. Where a statewide or national election requires a lot of money, a single district is much more accessible for a candidate with a smaller staff to campaign in.
I think the real crux of our problem is the distance between how people feel about individual progressive policies vs how they feel about progressive people who espouse all those policies. The right has been very successful at linking the culture war issues to progressives and demonizing them as SJWs, to distract from actual policy proposals.
I don’t think that’s entirely correct. If what you were saying about progressive politicians were true, Bernie Sanders would not be the most popular politician in the country. I think the real problem is that the Democrats are no longer credible messengers of a working class message. I think that’s why Dan Osborne won by not only running as an independent, but flat out rejecting the local Democrats endorsement.
Also, it’s important to remember that it was the centrists who pivoted towards culture war issues when they no longer had a progressive economic message they could run on. As Hillary Clinton said during the 2016 primary:
Bernie is the most popular politician in the country? Regardless though, what popularity he has does not extend to all people who espouse progressive ideas, so other factors are at play.
I also don’t see that as a pivot as much as a slow march towards equal rights that dems have been fighting for for decades. And even so, it does not have much to do with the messaging strategy employed by the right. We’re not fighting against facts, we’re fighting against a messaging framework that paints progressive people as bad while ignoring the content of progressive policy proposals.
Yeah, Bernie is routinely ranked the most popular politician in America. I think it’s also worth noting that, while conservative messaging is very good at making figures like AOC seem radical or extreme, it does the same to centrist figures like Pelosi or Obama; Republicans convinced themselves that Obama was a communist for continuing Bush’s bank bailouts and implementing Mitt Romney’s Healthcare plan. No matter what the Democrats do, the Republicans will paint them as radical leftists, so they might as well go for bold, popular policy agendas like Medicare for All or a $20 minimum wage rather than small incremental changes that voters don’t understand or care about.
But that assumes they want to.
Sure, as long as we ignore that the Democratic Party protects centrists and actively opposes progressives in primaries.
It is non-voters. Whether they’re left leaning or center or whatever really doesn’t matter. They’re going to get it one way or the other. They had a chance to drive the car more left but decided it wasn’t worth showing up so now it’s going full speed right wing back to the 50s and worse.
Congrats?
I mean, you’re basically making my point. People who don’t vote decide the election with their inaction. Whether it was not coming out for Bernie or not coming out for Kamala, it’s the same thing.
So yes, thank you for proving my point better than I could. I appreciate the assist.
Bonus- Bernie finished behind Kamala in Vermont. So let’s not act like progressivism is some silver bullet here.
Buddy, you’re proving mine. If Bernie’s loss in the primary is proof that Americans aren’t that progressive, then Harris and Hillary’s losses in the general prove that Americans aren’t that centrist. You can’t have it both ways.
So that would mean that the majority of the electorate is far-right, which would make no sense given how strongly progressive ballot measures overperformed against the Harris campaign, or why Bernie polled more favorably against Trump than Clinton or Biden. Somehow, Americans would have disliked centrist and progressive politicians and like far-right politicians, but for some reason prefer progressive policies, and also favor the most high profile progressive in the Senate…or, Occam’s Razor, people prefer progressives, but the Democrats keep rat-fucking them in the primaries in favor of centrists.
Expect Trump took the center voters. I think we all see through him, but the center voter loves him for economy and jobs.
I’m sorry, but I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make here. Harris ran to the center, Trump ran to the far-right. If people who consider themselves moderate or centrist voted for him, that just indicates that even people who think of themselves as being in the middle politically aren’t interested in the Democrats centrism anymore. Anyway, I’m not trying to be a jerk, I’m just not sure where you’re coming from here.
I used to think that, but really he won the center voter. He appealed on jobs, and inflation, and manufacturing, and all those things that are center. He really did get the center voter.
We can bemoan that people should be smarter to see through the BS (and I think most people on lemmy can see through it), but people aren’t and Trump won the center voter.
Trump did a better job appealing to the center than Harris did. Harris relied on the left showing up for abortion rights and for democracy, and they didn’t show up.
It sounds like you’re just making up justifications for the party not moving to the left in the future.
These aren’t centrist issues, these are just…issues. Like, jobs isn’t left, right, or center. It’s just something that matters to people. But trying to solve it by deporting 13 million people is far right.
Clearly the answer is to run to the right of Trump. It’s not like you don’t want to.
Lol still on your strawman huh.
You know you remind me of a conversation I had with someone else. I told him that I wanted environmental policy, but that environmental platforms didn’t win elections. He couldn’t comprehend separating those out. To him you had to think that environmental policy was good and think it won elections. Or if you said environmental policy didn’t win elections, well to him that meant you personally didn’t want environmental policies. He had to group those two together. He was literally unable to separate them out. Well that’s exactly like you, just on different issues.
Do tell, then. What wins elections? How do you intend to rephrase “just move to the right”?
No response huh! Just (effectively) more strawman. Well think about it. At least try to break that “AND” operator you insist on other people.
What, in your estimation, can Democrats do to win elections, and how does it differ from “just move to the right”?
It makes perfect sense when you realize places like Missouri and Florida voted for abortion rights yet also voted for Republicans and trump all over too.
And again, there’s no big magical force keeping progressives out of winning primaries. They just don’t. So again, my point, either people aren’t that progressive or progressives fucking suck at voting. Either way, same result.
Moreover, we’ll use your metric of progressive policies winning over Harris and analyze why she won more over Bernie himself. Must mean people are more moderate right?
And again, if that’s the case, then centrists are even suckier at voting, because they keep fucking losing even harder. And it still doesn’t explain when progressive preform so much better in elections where Democrats can’t put their thumb on the scales for centrists.