Sounds like another industry in dire need of competition. Makes sense that they’re fighting tooth and nail to keep a deathgrip on what they’ve still got (for now).
There’s plenty of competition; the problem isn’t the proprietary firmware, it’s the expensive parts. You can still fix 99% of a machine yourself, you might have to get a tech out to put a CANbus ID into the computer so a new part that you put on works.
But it still comes down to the fact that the competition don’t make as good/productive of a machine, and parts availability, even if they are expensive, is key. I’ve paid $1000 for a part I could make myself on a mill, but it would take me a day and I’d lose $100,000 of lost production on that machine because rain is coming.
That’s fair, there’s definitely more to it than just having the capability when you’re also dealing with weather and other factors that impact your deadlines. I’m not a fan of equipment manufacturers who exploit their stranglehold on their customers even though I see why it happens.
I don’t think anyone’s suggesting that right-to-repair replaces repair options from the OEM, but it’s a critical option to have in a functional product support ecosystem and Deer’s trying to cut it out entirely.
This is probably the first time I’ve made a comment like this on a thread about Deere that hasn’t been downvoted into the basement. People don’t want to hear about what the ground truth of this situation is, they want to hate a company that they haven’t ever actually dealt with.
Don’t get me wrong, I would like to see Deere stop some of their practices, particularly using opensource software like Linux to power their devices and then selling them at steep prices to farmers that sometimes barely have enough money to fix a tire on one of these machines. But the “unrepairability” of Deere equipement is massively misunderstood by most of these armchair warriors, including Rossman.
On the plus side, the uproar has given us the ability to go buy a diagnostic computer from Deere now for the low, low prices of $26,000. It takes a lot of $100 tech visits to make that pay.
There is competition - New Holland, Massey Ferguson, Case IH, etc… The problem is that despite all the anti-consumer nonsense John Deere still tops the lists as the best option.
Deere has the most massive dealer network in the U.S./Canada. So when looking for a part farmers have an easier time finding them. In other places of the world the competition is much more fierce and they don’t compete as well.
As for quality of equipment, Deere makes stuff about average. It’s not terrible but it’s not great.
Other companies have specialized in some things and make vastly better equipment.
New Holland/Massey F has the best swathers and bailers.
I wouldn’t trade our 569 for anything else. We’ve had Case and Heston balers, they’re kinda meh and break way more often than if seen on our Deere’s. As for the rest, well parts availability is king.
Deere has the most massive dealer network in the U.S./Canada. So when looking for a part farmers have an easier time finding them.
I have no doubt that this is caused at least partly by the decline of keeping spare parts on the shelf in a warehouse, something most companies did before everyone shifted to ‘just in time’ inventory management because it saved money up front.
But as it turns out ‘just in time’ doesnt work so great when a farmer needs a part right this moment since it relies on ordering then shipping only whats needed.
It probably made Deere’s dealer network look pretty good by comparison since they (presumably) stock parts that another farm store down the road doesnt carry.>
There’s also legislation ( at least in Canada) that requires a manufacturer to have parts for machines less than a decade old to be readily available. A “machine down” order is 3 days or they can explain to the ag minister why they can’t comply.
I’ll move my goalposts a bit then. The industry needs more significant competition for that top spot. It’s not an area I know much about though, just what I’ve picked up from discussions like this about how they respond when people get the crazy idea that they own the equipment they paid for.
query because I am not a farmer: Is Deere tops because they make products that are superior / better bang-for-buck, or is it just hometown advantage of no shipping/delivery overhead, tarrifs/taxes/import fees etc?
Honestly I don’t know. All three I listed are American or have American production facilities (New Holland was founded in PA, and still has a facility there, but is owned by an Italian company).
Sounds like another industry in dire need of competition. Makes sense that they’re fighting tooth and nail to keep a deathgrip on what they’ve still got (for now).
There’s plenty of competition; the problem isn’t the proprietary firmware, it’s the expensive parts. You can still fix 99% of a machine yourself, you might have to get a tech out to put a CANbus ID into the computer so a new part that you put on works.
But it still comes down to the fact that the competition don’t make as good/productive of a machine, and parts availability, even if they are expensive, is key. I’ve paid $1000 for a part I could make myself on a mill, but it would take me a day and I’d lose $100,000 of lost production on that machine because rain is coming.
That’s fair, there’s definitely more to it than just having the capability when you’re also dealing with weather and other factors that impact your deadlines. I’m not a fan of equipment manufacturers who exploit their stranglehold on their customers even though I see why it happens.
I don’t think anyone’s suggesting that right-to-repair replaces repair options from the OEM, but it’s a critical option to have in a functional product support ecosystem and Deer’s trying to cut it out entirely.
Very interesting to hear a user’s perspective.
This is probably the first time I’ve made a comment like this on a thread about Deere that hasn’t been downvoted into the basement. People don’t want to hear about what the ground truth of this situation is, they want to hate a company that they haven’t ever actually dealt with.
Don’t get me wrong, I would like to see Deere stop some of their practices, particularly using opensource software like Linux to power their devices and then selling them at steep prices to farmers that sometimes barely have enough money to fix a tire on one of these machines. But the “unrepairability” of Deere equipement is massively misunderstood by most of these armchair warriors, including Rossman.
On the plus side, the uproar has given us the ability to go buy a diagnostic computer from Deere now for the low, low prices of $26,000. It takes a lot of $100 tech visits to make that pay.
There is competition - New Holland, Massey Ferguson, Case IH, etc… The problem is that despite all the anti-consumer nonsense John Deere still tops the lists as the best option.
Deere has the most massive dealer network in the U.S./Canada. So when looking for a part farmers have an easier time finding them. In other places of the world the competition is much more fierce and they don’t compete as well.
As for quality of equipment, Deere makes stuff about average. It’s not terrible but it’s not great.
Other companies have specialized in some things and make vastly better equipment.
New Holland/Massey F has the best swathers and bailers.
Kubota has the best small tractors.
CLAAS has the best choppers and combines.
I wouldn’t trade our 569 for anything else. We’ve had Case and Heston balers, they’re kinda meh and break way more often than if seen on our Deere’s. As for the rest, well parts availability is king.
I have no doubt that this is caused at least partly by the decline of keeping spare parts on the shelf in a warehouse, something most companies did before everyone shifted to ‘just in time’ inventory management because it saved money up front.
But as it turns out ‘just in time’ doesnt work so great when a farmer needs a part right this moment since it relies on ordering then shipping only whats needed.
It probably made Deere’s dealer network look pretty good by comparison since they (presumably) stock parts that another farm store down the road doesnt carry.>
There’s also legislation ( at least in Canada) that requires a manufacturer to have parts for machines less than a decade old to be readily available. A “machine down” order is 3 days or they can explain to the ag minister why they can’t comply.
I’ll move my goalposts a bit then. The industry needs more significant competition for that top spot. It’s not an area I know much about though, just what I’ve picked up from discussions like this about how they respond when people get the crazy idea that they own the equipment they paid for.
query because I am not a farmer: Is Deere tops because they make products that are superior / better bang-for-buck, or is it just hometown advantage of no shipping/delivery overhead, tarrifs/taxes/import fees etc?
Honestly I don’t know. All three I listed are American or have American production facilities (New Holland was founded in PA, and still has a facility there, but is owned by an Italian company).