There are rumours that the editor, Kath Viner, is a TERF, though she hasn’t made her own views clear. The Guardian has given columns to a lot of professional anti-trans commentators, such as Hadley Freeman, Julie Bindel and Suzanne Moore.
For casual readers, please observe the nasty nature of these personal attacks, and please note that the viewpoint of the person expressing them is NOT shared by everyone on the left.
Given it’s position as a mostly progressive/liberal paper their line on transgender topics is weirdly backwards. And it’s not just commenters. It does match the overall atmosphere in the UK in general, but it’s extremely jarring when looking at it from the outside.
Thanks for that. It is odd how these radical feminist views have gone so far that they loop back around to the far right. And yes it’s surprising that the Guardian is giving them a platform. I wonder why it does? Is it just the paper has always supported feminism, but the feminists that write their articles have become more radicalised over time?
I really don’t understand how these radical feminists think that transgender rights are somehow eroding women’s rights. Every trans person I know just wants to get on with their lives, they don’t have some agenda. If you wrote an article about how gay rights are causing some issue it would be considered right-wing. So why is it different for trans rights? Crazy
From what I can tell, they don’t have “a line”. They are generally supportive of trans right and folks and they also acknowledge that there is debate over how some vulnerable women would still like spaces free both from men and from women who transitioned and were previously men. This is a difficult subject and I don’t think the paper is transphobic to carry the discussion. It’s what happens when the rights of two vulnerable communities collide.
I’m not going to “debate you bro”. Build your own opinion, read the articles I linked, try to find an argument.
Try to find good faith. Then maybe there can be a conversation.
What OP described is exactly how TERFs phrase their fight against trans people in public. I’m not going to engage with those arguments, because they either come from ignorance (which I’m not energetic enough to combat today) or from a place of bad faith “discussions”.
I read the articles you linked, and that was the conclusion I drew. I’m not sure its helpful to accuse me of reaching them through either ‘ignorance’ or ‘bad faith’. I have empathy for the difficulties of the trans community, but I also have empathy for women who have suffered abuse.
I’m honestly not sure how to square that circle yet. But I don’t think shutting down a conversation with ‘the paper is transphobic, full stop’ is great.
With your self-righteous attitude and allergy to contradiction you are literally proving the arguments of the far right. You are part of the reason the left cannot win elections any more. You are not helping anyone or anything.
I think my position on that was made clear enough by my original post and my reply.
You might have been asking in entirely good faith, but the issue is that this “oh, can you please explain your point of view to me” approach is so extremely frequently presented in bad faith and costs so much energy from those who care about topics like this.
Ok. Your first linked article is taking issue with the Guardian for saying “If a lesbian only desires same-sex dates that’s not bigotry, it’s her right”.
Your position is that you disagree with the Guardian here?
The journalists. The Guardian has been shockingly bad when it comes to transphobia, to the point where the writers for the US edition has publicly criticized the UK edition.
The Equality Act allows for single-sex services to exclude trans people where this is “a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim”, such as in rape support services
What the fuck, trans people are 4x as likely to be victims of violent crimes and twice as likely to be victims of sexual violence than cis people, that’s a terrible fucking law
It seems to be both conscious and coordinate and does fit into the overall climate of the UK in general being quite openly transphobic (yes, that’s a generalization, I know).
Just look at some of the crap that J. K. Rowling sprouts which doesn’t seem to reduce her darling status.
I’m not aware of the situation - are the journalists transphobic or the commenters?
There are rumours that the editor, Kath Viner, is a TERF, though she hasn’t made her own views clear. The Guardian has given columns to a lot of professional anti-trans commentators, such as Hadley Freeman, Julie Bindel and Suzanne Moore.
For casual readers, please observe the nasty nature of these personal attacks, and please note that the viewpoint of the person expressing them is NOT shared by everyone on the left.
Given it’s position as a mostly progressive/liberal paper their line on transgender topics is weirdly backwards. And it’s not just commenters. It does match the overall atmosphere in the UK in general, but it’s extremely jarring when looking at it from the outside.
And so that it’s not just a “I told you so”:
Thanks for that. It is odd how these radical feminist views have gone so far that they loop back around to the far right. And yes it’s surprising that the Guardian is giving them a platform. I wonder why it does? Is it just the paper has always supported feminism, but the feminists that write their articles have become more radicalised over time?
I really don’t understand how these radical feminists think that transgender rights are somehow eroding women’s rights. Every trans person I know just wants to get on with their lives, they don’t have some agenda. If you wrote an article about how gay rights are causing some issue it would be considered right-wing. So why is it different for trans rights? Crazy
From what I can tell, they don’t have “a line”. They are generally supportive of trans right and folks and they also acknowledge that there is debate over how some vulnerable women would still like spaces free both from men and from women who transitioned and were previously men. This is a difficult subject and I don’t think the paper is transphobic to carry the discussion. It’s what happens when the rights of two vulnerable communities collide.
Feel free to have that opinion.
Is their opinion incorrect? I’d be interested to hear a counterpoint.
No.
I’m not going to “debate you bro”. Build your own opinion, read the articles I linked, try to find an argument.
Try to find good faith. Then maybe there can be a conversation.
What OP described is exactly how TERFs phrase their fight against trans people in public. I’m not going to engage with those arguments, because they either come from ignorance (which I’m not energetic enough to combat today) or from a place of bad faith “discussions”.
I read the articles you linked, and that was the conclusion I drew. I’m not sure its helpful to accuse me of reaching them through either ‘ignorance’ or ‘bad faith’. I have empathy for the difficulties of the trans community, but I also have empathy for women who have suffered abuse.
I’m honestly not sure how to square that circle yet. But I don’t think shutting down a conversation with ‘the paper is transphobic, full stop’ is great.
With your self-righteous attitude and allergy to contradiction you are literally proving the arguments of the far right. You are part of the reason the left cannot win elections any more. You are not helping anyone or anything.
Oof. Wasn’t asking for a debate, simply asked your perspective.
You know I’m not “HeartyBeast”, right?
I think my position on that was made clear enough by my original post and my reply.
You might have been asking in entirely good faith, but the issue is that this “oh, can you please explain your point of view to me” approach is so extremely frequently presented in bad faith and costs so much energy from those who care about topics like this.
Ok. Your first linked article is taking issue with the Guardian for saying “If a lesbian only desires same-sex dates that’s not bigotry, it’s her right”.
Your position is that you disagree with the Guardian here?
The journalists. The Guardian has been shockingly bad when it comes to transphobia, to the point where the writers for the US edition has publicly criticized the UK edition.
That’s weird. Is it a conscious, coordinated decision or is it a case of several writers being transphobic?
There is an “official” editorial: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/17/the-guardian-view-on-the-gender-recognition-act-where-rights-collide
What the fuck, trans people are 4x as likely to be victims of violent crimes and twice as likely to be victims of sexual violence than cis people, that’s a terrible fucking law
It seems to be both conscious and coordinate and does fit into the overall climate of the UK in general being quite openly transphobic (yes, that’s a generalization, I know).
Just look at some of the crap that J. K. Rowling sprouts which doesn’t seem to reduce her darling status.