I’m simply asking this question because of Lemmygrad.ml existing, and that there isn’t a far-right equivalent of it yet. If Lemmygrad has any standing for its right to exist under free speech, where is the line drawn for other extremist political ideologies? If Holodomor skepticism is allowed, then what stops Holocaust skepticism? (as it is generally accepted the Holodomor was man-made). I’m simply wondering what gives far-left politics a right to promote such extremist views in the Fediverse, when their far-right counterparts would be Defederated in minutes.
Isn’t Truth Social (Trump’s thing) technically part of the fediverse, since it runs on Mastodon? I don’t know if they’re a far-right equivalent of lemmygrad since I haven’t spent time on either but it seems like a fair parallel.
Personally I’m not a fan of eager defederation. I’m skeptical of the benefits of deplatforming and I think that casual use of the banhammer, even if the subjects deserve it, is corrosive to our own ability to think clearly.
I keep seeing these posts about whether something should be “allowed”, and keep asking myself how people could so fundamentally misunderstand the fediverse when I’ve only been here a month and can see this is a silly question.
How are you going to stop an open source, federated community from having instances where far right or far left stuff happens? You can’t. All you can do is decide who you federate with on the instance you own. So join an instance who is careful about its membership and defererates instances that have far right or left activity. That’s all you can do.
There is no “king of the fediverse” making decrees about what is/is not allowed.
I mean, how scary is the far left? They want to feed too many hungry kids? Make healthcare affordable? Respect basic human rights? It seems disingenuous to compare the left to the right, I mean one side is too nice and the other wants to tear down democracy.
Damned communists wanting everybody to (checks notes) live in reasonable comfort, without fear of destitution and homelessness
This reads like such flame-bait/rage-bait, sigh… but I will respond under the assumption you are a confused newbie to Lemmy and give you some slack.
Lemmy and many Fediverse apps are set up so that it is not possible to banish/censor an instance from the entire network, besides methods to take the server offline itself including DMCA/DDoS/lawsuits/government seizure etc., so lemmygrad will continue to “exist” just as much as exploding-heads, Gab, Truthsocial and other far-right sites will.
Keep in mind: Many major instances (including beehaw) are already de-federated from lemmygrad. Constant CCP and СССР propaganda gets tiring quickly.
As much as an instance owner is given a right to unfettered speech, they and other instande owners also have the right to control what speech from others they want on the platform. Being blunt here, right-wing instances being immediately de-federated is an indication that many instance owners don’t want the diarrhea of extreme rhetoric pouring in, so the best course of action for those users would be to find their own toilet.
If you explicitly define what far-left and far-right means, you could probably have a straightforward answer. You mention holodomor skepticism and holocaust skepticism as some kind of far-left and far-right examples (unless I am misreading your comment), but I personally am not sure exactly what the holodomor was. I assume it was some genocide-level event perpetuated by the USSR, but I am not at all sure. Maybe my internet experience is in some kind of enclave composed of SF literature discussions, 8-bit computers and King of the Hill clips, but I really don’t run across holodomor skepticism at all.
Of course, I know what holocaust skepticism is (the denial that millions of Jews [and a whole bunch of gays and Christians and Roma peoples) were systematically killed by the German regime during WW2, as directed by Hitler), but that’s only because the types of people who would embrace (or worse) holocaust skepticism are feeling more emboldened by the current political climate.
Personally, I define far-left and far-right as being ‘armed militants’ and/or ‘large groups of people calling for the eradication of one or more types of people.’ ‘Types of people’, in this case, means ‘people who are born with a certain characteristic that is not changeable, such as race or sexuality’ Currently, we have armed militants protesting libraries (libraries, of all places!) but I have yet to see an armed militant demanding government-funded healthcare or seizing the means of production. Therefore, you will have to forgive me if I don’t buy into the ‘both sides’ equivalence that your post requires the reader to hold.
When the far-left becomes as bad as the far-right, we can (and should!) talk. Until then, miss me with that shit.
I personally am not sure exactly what the holodomor was. I assume it was some genocide-level event perpetuated by the USSR
The Holodomor was a man-made famine in Soviet Ukraine; there is some argument as to whether the intent was to kill off Ukrainians to stifle their independence movement at the time, or if the greater USSR just didn’t care about them at all.
Regardless, most of the crops grown in Ukraine at the time were shipped out to other parts of the USSR, leaving little to eat in Ukraine, and causing millions of deaths. Total death count is also iffy, but certainly rivals the Holocaust.
Compare the Irish potato famine, where Britain enforced export of potatoes from Ireland despite widespread Irish famine. Same thing, larger scale.
Lemmy is a federated platform run by instance owners. Owners have full power regarding moderating their servers including delegating that power to others. The owners can decide which other owners are censored through defederation. Lemmy, by design, is not free from political struggle. Lemmy handles power better than platforms like Reddit where server ownership is centralized.
Denying crimes against humanity is foul. Owners decide which ideas are promoted and which are denying history through federation with owners. Spaces for denying crimes against humanity will continue to exist. I would like to be in those spaces as a thorn to remind others of their awful ideas and possibly present better ideas.
Under present conditions someone must own the hardware to run the server. The owner cannot reasonably allow all content. Constituents of an instance place trust in the owner to censor in a transparent and responsible manner. Those same constituents can leave an instance for violating trust with regard to censorship. Freedom of association is an important component of Lemmy.
Far right and far left are a spectrum. I describe myself as an anarchist which is considered far left. As an anarchist, I see the fediverse as a possibility space for democratic control and power distribution over horizontally aligned hierarchies. I am excited for the possibilities to end domination heirarchies. My political alignment is tangent to the systems for power established by Lemmy.
Well said, all of it.
There’s nothing the Fediverse as a whole can do to prevent extremism, by design; what we can do is choose not to interact with it, or to interact antagonistically with it
I’m gonna be annoying and I know it, but I really hate that people equate the far left and the far right. What does the far left want? Destroy capitalism. What does the far right want? Kill all queer people and then some. For some people, the opposite of Nazism is Communism when these barely have anything to do with each other.
The far left can be annoying, sure. But in the end, the vast majority of them are not actively trying to justify mass murder. That’s a key difference. Also, one has dramatically more influence then the other. So the question should be:
Should the far right be an allowed part of Lemmy’s fediverse?
Which is a misunderstanding of the fediverse I think. We can’t forbid them to be anywhere on an open source and defedrated platform. We can however, ask if they should be tolerated? And that’s up to the various servers to decide.
Beehaw already has a stance on it, though: No. Hence the recent defederation. And I agree. Fuck Nazis.
This is my stance on it too. People like to treat today’s political environment as two sides of a coin diametrically opposed, but that’s not how political ideology works, it’s more nuance than that, like a sphere. I get why American’s do it with a two-party system, but that doesn’t mean you’re all in on one or another, people are more nuance than that too. People who run with this mentality that there are only two sides to politics often fall into the mistake of equating to two as equal sides as you said. It makes it hard to acknowledge the difference of the extremes and their intentions.
Though I think the biggest reason people are less tolerant the alt right is because there are more reasons outside of politics to be against the alt right. Outside of politics, alt lefties usually get into arguments with economist and capitalist because extreme leftist have intensions to change the economic landscape. Whether for better or worse is precisely what they’re arguing about. There’s also the more fringe alt left (tankies I believe) who will get in a tussle with historians and survivors alike, but their conversations chill out once they realize no one’s condoning anything (usually, idk all you tankies).
Meanwhile the alt right targets specific freedoms enshrined by the US constitution and the Human Bill of Rights. The alt right wants a say in who you marry, whether or not you should adopt, religious rule you should abide by, who should/shouldn’t get to vote, whether the vote should be decided by the people or legislator (you now Democracy and all), your identity, your medical decisions, your family planning, your education, and the very books you read. There’s a desire to snub out individuality if it doesn’t abide by the alt rights idea of “normal.” All of these stances directly invade individual rights of many people and their ability to pursue their respective happiness. While there’s political reasons to speak out against these stances, there’s also moral obligation and the simple instinct of survival pushing back on these perspectives. This creates a large group of people who not only disagree, but whose existence is literally threaten, there’s no room for tolerance when lives and freedom are on the line. The reason alt right has a tough time is because most Americans still hold age-old American values of liberty, life, and the pursuit of happiness.
Do not tolerate the intolerant!
We should tolerate every ideology and political flavour as long as its supporters are not actively attacking or suppressing other views and especially targeting vulnerable people. The goal should be to create a welcoming place of free speech for all and this requires to eliminate those who do not support this goal or actively work against it - namely fascists (and that includes more than just the old and alt right).
Anti-fascism ist necessary action against those that claim freedom of speech but abuse it for ideological warfare with the ultimate goal of abolition of free speech.
Just asking a question, huh? Second one of these threads I’ve seen in my feed today.
Neocons testing the waters, to see how far their hatespeech will get them.
The premise is that it’s up to the admins of each instance to choose. Inherently in the design, nothing is globally allowed or not. And the less-preferable ideas will appear to fewer people because they will be defederated more often.
Fwiw, lemmygrad is defederated from many instances.
I don’t understand what argument you’re making. I was about to say you’re welcome to make your own instance and federate or defederate with whoever you want, but then I noticed you’re on beehaw. They already have defederated with lemmygrad. So what’s the problem?
Btw, MLs suck but let’s not pretend they’re the same or as bad as Nazis. That’s a false equivalence.
Politically speaking, the lemmy/fediverse would make a great PolySci thesus. There is no practical universal governance other than sharing the ActivityPub protocol. It is an interesting experiment in how humans behave. Each instance is like a country.
Fuck the far right in all venues and platforms.
You cannot stop someone from downloading a software to open their own instance. What you can do is to block bad actors/cut federation with them. Which is what most instances do with both alt-right/nazi and tankie instances.
I always laugh at the term “far left” or “left extremism.” Like oh no stop it with all the equality and rights. No no anything but those.
The victims of the Holodomor were not treated as equals by their killers.
Left and right aren’t authoritarian or libertarian. The soviets were authoritarian and that’s why that happened. There’s no case to be made for equality and sharing resources to be a bad thing that could lead to something like that. It’s a problem with the implementation mainly the concentration of power that allowed authoritarianism. On the far right you have racism and suppression of “others” which clearly can lead to a nasty place very quickly.
The idea that the U.S.S.R. was socialist or communist, or that it’s controlling party was working to make it so, was propaganda that was convenient for both the U.S. (which was already deep in the throws of reaction against the left, and pretty much had been since its inception, and wanted to use it against its budding Cold-War enemy) and the U.S.S.R. (where leftist ideas were popular, so the government pretending to embody it was helpful to the state). It wasn’t. It was just a very widely-spread and useful authoritarian lie.
