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Or, how about we let people put whatever they want into their own body?
Tell that to all the smokers trying to quit who wish their younger self had not started in the first place.
Vape for the same effect. I don’t want to choke on what you’re putting in your body.
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So if some can’t enjoy something responsibly, no one can?
Wtf is 3rd hand smoke?
The theory that when you smoke, the nicotine binds to surfaces the smoke touches, causing cancer to anyone who comes near surfaces that nicotine has touched.
It was a “truth” run around in the 80s as we were discovering the nature of radiation, so lots of war on drug “research” papers got published functionally saying nicotine and radiation are the same thing.
I mean, nicotine does saturate things when you smoke in an enclosed area. It’s impossible to paint over the stained walls of a smoker’s house without chemically stripping them first, because all the accumulated tar will just seep through the paint and leave brown stains. There’s no way that shit’s healthy.
You mistake the word “nicotine” for the word “tar”.
2 wildly different concepts.
And thank you captain I have something to add for observing that tobacco is less healthy that a carrot.
I meant for me. I’m not sure if you were talking about people or real estate.
Can’t tell if you are joking or just that stupid.
Because of the children, won’t someone think of the children?!
They already aren’t allowed to smoke!
But parents are allowed to expose them to the smoke.
Do we need to ban everything that a shitty parent might not be able to keep away from their kids?
Why not expand the definition of child abuse to include these things instead of punishing people who are never around kids?
Why not expand the definition of child abuse to include these things instead of punishing people who are never around kids?
That sounds like a great idea, but it’s going to be impossible to enforce.
Normally I’d agree, but cigarettes in particular are a product that is designed to be as addictive as possible with a laundry list of negative health impacts and virtually zero positive ones. Combine that with the fact that you aren’t just putting it in your body but the body of anyone within breathing distance of you, there’s a strong case to be made for banning them outright.
Put it another way, if cigarettes are legal then marijuana, LSD, MDMA, and a whole host of other drugs should be legal too.
Put it another way, if cigarettes are legal then marijuana, LSD, MDMA, and a whole host of other drugs should be legal too.
Yes. Yes they should.
Fuck prohibition.
Prohibition=Oppression.
Maybe they could just regulate what they put in them instead? Good tobacco is pretty tasty and not insanely addictive. Why not just basically put them in legacy mode?
They’ve already hit a crazy stride with vapes. Maybe they could do a 5-10 year plan where the clean it up while also gaining the foothold that they have with younger people?
Good tobacco is … not insanely addictive
Nah, nicotine is very addictive by itself. But yes, the additives make it even worse.
I agree though, it’s disappointing that governments don’t have better labeling regulations on “sinful” products. Alcohol: why not require a list of ingredients and calories? Cigarettes: same thing, show what it has been processed with, etc? Like how the EU used to require showing how much tar and nicotine each cigarette contained, but realized all the producers started to fake the testing machines by designing holes in the filters (like “light” cigs) where the user’s lips would otherwise cover when smoking.
Bruh, you know tobacco is a plant. Right?
Alcohol needs so much work to be made.
Tobacco is a plant.
Just like weed.
So’s hemlock, what’s your point?
That noone “made it” the way it is, and if dudes gonna smoke a plant, let dude smoke a plant.
Cigarettes != tobacco. Tobacco is an ingredient in cigarettes, and not the only one, not by a long shot. Literally dozens of additives are included in cigarettes, many of which are designed to make them more addictive.
Secondly, modern tobacco absolutely was “made” the way it is, first through selective breeding and then genetic modification to (among other things) increase Nicotine content. Much in the same way that modern weed is far stronger than the stuff grown 50 years ago, so too is tobacco.
Combine that with the fact that you aren’t just putting it in your body but the body of anyone within breathing distance of you,
That’s part of responsible use. I’m ok with only letting smokers smoke in specialty ventilated & filtered areas. Easy for me to say, I don’t smoke. But if any adult wants to make an informed decision to, that should be their choice.
Put it another way, if cigarettes are legal then marijuana, LSD, MDMA, and a whole host of other drugs should be legal too.
I emphatically agree.
Fuck you.
I spent half my life legally smoking tobacco and illegally smoking weed.
I moved a quarter of a country away for the mental health of legally smoking tobacco and legally smoking weed.
I WILL NOT be dragged back into a life where one of my vices give me crippling fear of imprisonment.
Get off your fucking high horse. Mind your own fucking business. Stop asserting your will over others. Live your own fucking life. Let me live my fucking life.
Seriously.
Stop.
Just stop.
Prohibition is horse shit.
Stop supporting prohibition.
I’m glad I live in a country with universal healthcare. Your point is made completely erroneous by the fact that everyone’s taxes are paying for your cancer treatment. This “fuck you i’ll do what i want” mentality is literally antisocial conservative garbage.
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Leave it to Lemmyists to downvote a comment saying that you shouldn’t be allowed to force other people to breathe poisonous smoke.
Come to Colorado! If it’s worth legalization, we are all about it.
(One of my post-legalization projects…)
There’s already too many people in Colorado.
I don’t think this person means criminalize use of cigarettes to be fair.
They would criminalize tobacco production and smuggling and there would 100*% be a black market.
Think of it more like a safety standard - prevent the sales of variations doing the most harm to public health
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Banning drugs or alcohol has never worked. The demand will still be there. People will turn to the black market instead if it gets banned.
Yeah, which is why illegal drugs have more users than legal drugs (alcohol and tobacco). Except they don’t.
Their argument was that banning cigarettes wouldn’t eliminate their use, only drive people to continue doing it through other methods.
What does your comment have to do with that…? Nobody said there would somehow be more users than before, just that people would continue doing it…
My argument is that since illegal drugs have significantly fewer users, prohibition does reduce usage.
The same number of people, as a percentage, smoke marijuana as smoke cigarettes. Marijuana use is federally illegal and illegal in most states.
So no, it really doesn’t reduce usage. Price and perceived risk are the two factors that reduce usage the most.
I don’t know about the USA, but I see tobacco smokers every day and very rarely see marijuana smokers.
Most people smoking weed aren’t just doing it out in the open like tobacco users
That logic doesn’t flow, though. You need to compare number of current illegal users vs number of users before it was illegal.
Have you heard of the US prohibition on alcohol? It’s a pretty famous counterexample to your argument showing that it absolutely does not reduce usage.
There is a whole arc in the Battlestar Galactica reboot series that masterfully illustrates this topic.
It aint racist my guy. The chemical processes involved in menthol cigarettes increase the carcinogenic properties of the cig.
Yes, no shit cigs are bad. Menthol cigs are the worst offenders.
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna42237299
Edit: lol stay mad
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Ok, I’ll bite. Why is banning only menthols racist?
Black people tend to primarily smoke menthol, disproportionate to other races. I’m too lazy to link, but you can Google it and find studies pretty easily.
It’s why this same prohibition measure has failed in many legislative bodies many times.
Because African American smokers tend to favor menthol over other types of cigarettes.
“In the 1950s, less than 10% of Black smokers used menthol cigarettes. Today, after decades of tobacco industry targeting, that number is 85%. Menthol cigarettes continue to be heavily advertised, widely available and priced cheaper in Black communities."
https://www.tobaccofreekids.org/what-we-do/industry-watch/menthol-report
Because it’s doing the most harm to the most harmed demographic?
This apparently is an objectionable point to bring up… not sure if your downvotes are the “all or nothing” aspect, or the spotlighting of the blatant racist aspect, but it seems people don’t want to see this at face value :/
I’m with you though. The selective targeting is wrong. Equal ban or no ban is the right position to take IMHO.
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I down voted it because I don’t think the government should ban substances. Not cigarettes, not alcohol, not marijuana, not psychedelics, and probably not a bunch of other drugs too. The government’s job is not to play mommy and daddy for a nation of adults. Our citizens are entirely too eager to strip away their own liberty these days.
I agree with that.
The specific ban in question on this particular post isn’t a general matter though… it’s targeting minorities…
That kinda makes it a moot point in my opinion on wether or not prohibition is appropriate in general, because regardless of where you fall on the matter of bans or liberties, the specificity of the intended targets is wildly inappropriate, because it’s racist/homophobic, so I kinda disregarded the last point they made entirely :)
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Canada has outright banned the sale of menthol cigarettes. You cannot buy them in Canada.
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Even in “Indian reserve”?
Yes. Indian Tobacco do not have a menthol option.
They should have just banned all cigarettes, stinky discusting things!
Already banned where I live.
They now sell cigarettes with hollow filters in which a separately sold tiny filter fits, which is infused with menthol.
Sue Dillion needs to make some calls
Good
So I totally forgot about this but, they banned them in Illinois and they just… They’re still there, no one around me has stopped selling them
There’s a story every couple years that the FDA has banned them. But I guess I never see the follow up where it doesn’t work.
They’ve already banned menthol in California and it did nothing. Alternatives are already being marketed and sold and some of the better ones recreate the exact same effect but cost $1.20 more per pack at the low end. To put it simply, this is dumb as fuck.
The point is to make cigarettes as expensive and unappealing as possible.
That’s not in anyone’s own interests. Smokers have to pay more, tobacco industry gets more money. Literally a lose-lose. Dumb. As. Fuck.
What do you mean? The more people have to pay in order to smoke the less people will smoke.
There’s a reason why people tend to hit rock bottom before they finally kick their drug addiction. If they don’t have the means, they will attempt to find it. Your logic is flawed, and only serves to disproportionately impair the poor while bolstering the very industry you fight.
I don’t fight, and I am pretty sure the focus is too reduce new users. How the fuck do you hit rock bottom solely on nicotine?
How the fuck do you hit rock bottom solely on nicotine?
Tobacco, the main ingredient in cigarettes, is more addictive than meth. If you can imagine somebody hitting rock bottom on meth then it should be easy enough to wrap your head around it. Especially when cigarettes contain added chemicals to make it more addictive than tobacco alone.
Also, I would be inclined towards believing that the habit is mostly spread through peers. Price as a barrier to entry wouldn’t be effective at preventing peer pressure if they’re your first supplier.
I call bullshit on that. Not to meantion the danger of meth is the physically damage it causes starting from the very first dose.
To clarify, the addictiveness of nicotine ≠ the addictiveness of tobacco. Even aside from the additives used by the tobacco industry, tobacco naturally contains an array of MAO inhibitors and other compounds that work in harmony with nicotine causing it to be far more addictive than nicotine itself. Pure nicotine is much farther down the scale of addictiveness, classed as a “weak reinforcer” in studies.
If you are interested in the subject, I highly recommend reading the studies and posts by Maryka Quik, director of the Neurodegenerative Diseases Program at SRI International. I first found out about her in an interesting article published in Scientific American — LINK.
This is effectively a Pigouvian tax, and will absolutely keep some people from smoking.
Also higher prices do not necessarily mean the industry is making more money. Far more likely, given the saturation of competition, that they simply cost more to make.
Thanks for your opinion.
This is not an expression of an opinion. These are statements of fact. As in our other discussion, I am simply explaining things to you.
You not liking these facts does not make them less true.
Then where’s your data?
Would you like a citation on what Pigouvian taxes are, how the cigarette industry is flooded with competition, or that putting further regulations on products makes them more expensive to produce?
I assumed you could Google any of these but I can do it for you. Fair warning, you’ll be getting a “let me Google that for you” link.
Not one of these facts is even remotely controversial so my mind is a bit boggled that you’d even try to contest any of them
Don’t forget a lot of the cost of a pack of smokes is often more due to taxation than the cost of the product, even if you include things likes all the overhead for marketing and legal and shit.
Yeah that’s because of aforementioned Pigouvian taxes. The entire point is pricing some people out of purchasing them.
AKA bankrupting the disadvantaged that have developed a drug dependence like a complete tyrant.
Did you know that tobacco is the third most addictive substance on the planet?
My dad quit when his cigarette of choice became $80/carton.
It’s not lose lose if it’s causing people to quit.
Hooray for your dad, but one anecdotal claim is hardly a proven method.
Okay so here we are speculating about this, but there’s data on this isn’t there? Is it not the case that countries who tax tobacco more have all but eliminated it? I’m not well versed on the subject, but I think it’s a bit silly to just pull this out of your ass as if it were fact. Here’s a link to an ncbi article that talks about it. I’m sure there’s plenty more out there to show one way or the other, so I’m interested to know whether you have anything to back up your stance.
Sure, and I agree that this should be approached with scepticism and not blind bias.
I’m basing this off tobacco being the third most addictive substance on the planet.
Being that dependent on a substance suggests that practical decision-making and rational thinking, such as adding motivation to quit through price, is certainly not going to be the most effective way to reduce dependency while also further harming those that fail to break their dependency.
Edit: Also I just want to point out, again, that I was never referring to tax. From what I saw there’s not enough conclusive data for me to form an opinion one way or the other on the effectiveness of increasing tobacco tax . All of my comments are about this ridiculously assanine ban, or the increased prices that come as a result of this ban.
That’s not how capitalism works. If the tobacco industry could raise prices and get more money today, they would. Since they haven’t, you have to assume that any increased taxes or burden on them will reduce their profits.
Yes, it might increase prices to the end consumer, because the demand curve will change when the costs change. But that doesn’t mean the tobacco industry is making any more money. If it did, they would already charge more.
Wrong. Prohibition increases demand.
Edit: Based off some replies, I think a lot of people are forgetting some rudimentary aspects of the concept of “demand”, so allow me to help:
Demand is an economic concept that relates to a consumer’s desire to purchase goods and services and willingness to pay a specific price for them.
When supply decreases, the price of the good increases. Inversely, when the supply of the good increases, the price falls
putting a tax on something is not the same as prohibiting it.
Go ahead and look at the post title
go ahead and look at the comment you were replying to
Prohibition has no net effect on demand, it simply enables black markets. Alcohol use after Prohibition was not higher than pre-prohibition, but did rise to the same levels fairly quickly.
Incorrect. Prohibition decreases supply. Supply and demand have an inverse relationship. This is economics 101.
There exists no accurate data of consumption during prohibition because it was a black market.
Supply and demand do not have an inverse relationship. Demand exists, and when supply exceeds demand, prices fall. When supply does not meet demand, prices rise. You understand they are related but forgot the actual curve on the graph. Supply and demand can both be low, for instance, as is the case with mega yachts. Supply and demand have no direct effect on one another, though low supply does tend to encourage firms to increase supply to try to compete and meet the demand.
Data during prohibition is irrelevant to this specific discussion, because your claim is that demand goes up when goods are prohibited, which is false, as I showed with my link
I don’t believe you have actually taken Econ 101, given the things Ive seen you say here.
Don’t ban them, tax them.
This way smokers have to pay more so the demand will decrease, tobacco industry gets less money, and the economic burden on public health and environment can be financed with the additional tax income.
Addicts will always find a way to justify their addiction. Price of smokes goes up? Welp, looks like Ol Johnny Blacklungs is going to buy less food this month.
So we shouldn’t tax cigarettes then? It sounds like you’ve identified that addiction can quickly become a public health crisis if wealth inequality could cause addicts to choose their vice over food. We could fund programs to help addicts get help, but we would need to raise tax revenue.
If the government insists on high rates of taxation for the reason that the product has a high potential for harm, then shouldn’t the use of that tax revenue be mostly, if not entirely, re-directed towards harm reduction programs around that substance or product? How can anyone possibly argue any other use for that revenue? When the revenue generated by ‘sin taxes’ is used for other unrelated purposes, they are effectively exploiting the users by recognizing that they will continue to be a source of revenue because the product is habit forming or addictive. The last time I checked on the revenue generated by tobacco taxes, only ~11% was spent on harm-reduction programs related to tobacco use and the remaining 89% was just paying for other government projects totally unrelated to tobacco.
To suggest that the solution is to further raise the taxation rates rather than properly allocating the current revenue is immoral and illogical IMHO.
“According to the American Lung Association, the use of menthol cigarettes is highest among Black, brown and LGBTQ+ communities. Medical groups like the American Lung Association have long advocated for menthol cigarettes to be banned because they can make it easier to start smoking and disproportionately affect minority communities.”
Gonna save the minorities from the opression of racism and homophobia by specifically targeting them with a ban.
I’ve never really understood references to “the left eating itself” until I hit that paragraph. The absolute irony of the anti racist/homophobe sentiment being so overtly racist/homophobic kinda made the light bulb come on.
This adverse thing is adverse, so in order to reduce adversity among minorities, we’ll target the specific option they tend towards… to reduce discrimination against them, by discriminating their specific choice. Discriminating against them… to reduce discrimination…
And then you publish that shit? That’s kinda fucked IMHO.
It’s racist to ban menthols? “The left eating itself”? Go touch grass.
Okay, I’m touching grass. Now what? It’s not doing anything and is boring.
Menthol cigarettes are what are consumed by teens as well. Banning the sale of them is a restriction on teen smoking.
what a wanker take on it, cigarettes should be banned period, they do nothing good for anyoneand are an absolute blight for public health. Any step in making cigarettes worse for accessibility, as marginal as it is, is a step in the right the right direction. People who smoked in France had the same take when they upped the cigarette prices “ooooh it won’t stop the poor people smoking blah blah” “they’re just doing it for the money they don’t care about poor people it will just hurt the common man more”. Welll cookie it turns out that 10€ has forced a lot of people to stop and greatly reduced young people who start smoking in the first place. Granted now people have shifted to vaping but compared to cigarettes they’re heaven. You can’t even compare vaping to smoking.
So it’s totally fine to target minorities with a ban if it means forward progress in disincentivising tobacco use? I disagree on the ends justifying the means in this case.
No arguments at all on the merits of reducing tobacco use, just an objection to throwing minorities under the bus in pursuit of it. I would not actually object to taxation as a means. I wouldn’t object to an outright ban even. My objection is to the specificity to minorities… that’s not cricket…
Yes it is in the case of tobacco usage.
imagine a situation women drank more alcohol than men and then the government banned alcohol for everyone. So you would consider this bad because it’s immoral to impose any kind of ban on women?
So what then? Ban it for the rich, the middle class and white people and let the people at risk smoke themselves to death ?
Where are your morals in this ? Put down your ideologies for one second and be pragmatic.
If they banned all alcohol for everyone, its indiscriminate, and I would not consider it to be discrimination (I’d consider it a bad idea based on the obvious). In your example, a ban on wine, but not whiskey, with the publicly stated intention of reducing alcohol intake among women, would be the equivalent, and I’d absolutely consider that misogynistic. In the case of a wine ban, yes, it would be immoral to impose that ban, because it would be targeted at women specifically.
They aren’t banning cigarettes. They’re banning menthols, and the publicly stated intent is to affect use of cigarettes among minorities. The policy is specifically intended to affect a demographic. Not because I say so, or because I think it does… it’s what they’re citing as the basis of the policy… they published it as such.
The pragmatic solution is to ban cigarettes. That would still affect the minorities disparately, but it’s no longer an inherently racist proposal at that point, because it’s about tobacco use period, not just the tobacco use specific to the minorities.
Well agreed that they should ban all cigarettes. in the end this is a half arsed solution that they came up with to “help” minorities.
But to be honest, I’ve seen too many people die to tobacco. I don’t care if the proposal is racist or not. Anything that can merely annoy a smoker’s smoking habits for me is a step in the right direction.
That’s the tiny hill I’m willing to die on.
I’d agree with you if it was a blanket ban on cigarettes, but it isn’t. It’s targeted.
Huh I mean I get what you’re saying but can’t we just take this potential win? I’m a cancer survivor and it just seems weird to complain about legislation that will reduce cancer. Menthol cigarettes just make it easier to get cancer than plain ones. That’s how I see this. Just because minorities and lgbtq are more likely to use them doesn’t mean it’s racist.
Menthol cigarettes just make it easier to get cancer than plain ones.
Were you a smoker, and did you ever smoke menthols? Menthols give a bit different feeling, but I wouldn’t say it’s that much “easier” to smoke.
The EU did the same thing to ban menthols a couple years ago, and yet I can still go to the store and buy cigarettes with menthol taste. These new fake-menthols surprisingly feel even smoother to smoke than classic menthols, but it’s still not a big difference compared to unflavored cigarettes IMO.
Nah, this ban accomplishes absolutely nothing except producing more expensive alternatives that do the exact same thing.
I’m glad you survived your battle, but this ban would only serve to disproportionately affect the poor.
Ahh thanks for sharing. You’re probably right then. And thanks :)
You’re both very welcome and a class act. It’s no small feat to kick cancer’s ass. Lol
Thanks so much! All thanks to my anonymous stem cell donor via BeTheMatch! Other treatments didn’t work before that and this person saved my life.
How do menthols make it easier to get cancer than regular smokes? Genuinely asking btw
Menthol makes it easier to start smoking, to continue being a smoker for longer than the person would have done otherwise, and to smoke more, because it makes smoking less irritating and tastes better. You are correct in that the menthol molecule itself is not a carcinogen.
No it doesn’t. It’s purely a preference. There are tons of smokers who can’t stand menthols but love regular cigarettes. I even know someone who smokes menthols because he said it makes people less likely to bum cigarettes off of him.
I even know someone who smokes menthols because he said it makes people less likely to bum cigarettes off of him.
That’s why I switched to menthols back when I smoked. That, and I just liked them more. I didn’t like the ultra menthol ones like Kools or Benson & Hedges, but Marlboro Milds were just about perfect, and the amount of “Oh…those are menthol? Nevermind” was the cherry on top.
Yeah this is what I meant!
Do you have a source for these claims? No one is smoking cigarettes for the taste, nor is “bad taste” a common reason for anyone to quit. Smoking is both a chemical addiction (nicotine and such) and a psychological habit (place and timing, having something in the mouth, forced breathing exercises, etc).
If we really wanted to hinder big tobacco, they’d start requiring producers to document all their ingredients, additives, and processing methods.
Exactly. It’s all about money & control and it always has been. If they wanted to get people to stop smoking, they’d mandate that the tobacco companies remove all of the chemicals from cigarettes that make the nicotine a free base form to increase their addictive properties.
You mean vaping lmao? They be wanting to ban that even more lmao
Nic Salts are the free base equivalent of cigarettes for the vaping world, but I agree that it’s a lot less harmful. The government would endorse vaping if they truly wanted to end smoking, since it has an incredibly high success rate as a smoking cessation device, like orders of magnitude higher than any other form. All of the other cessation methods (which are owned by the tobacco companies BTW), have a max success rate of about 3.5%. Vaping has a success rate of almost 70%! So yeah, their opposition to vaping makes my point even more clear.
It’s my body; I get to decide what goes in it. Poison or not. This isn’t a win at all.
No you don’t lmao the FDA is kind of the authority here. There’s nothing on store shelves that you can choose or not choose to put in your body that wasn’t already cleared by the FDA. You have an illusion of choice.
I just wish it was banned in public because I choose to not put poison in my body, yet I have to inhale everyone else’s poison that they are ingesting near me. In public and in cars is where I wish it was banned. There’s nothing worse than being stuck behind someone in traffic that is smoking and you have nowhere to go and nothing to do except inhale that shit.
I have to say, pot is getting like that too. While I support that it’s now decriminalized (where I live), now it’s becoming a nuisance. I shouldn’t have to breathe second hand smoke regardless of what you’re smoking
I got bad news for you… cigarette smoke is the least of your worries when stuck in traffic. You’re inhaling exhauste fumes from every car near you…
Oh man if only there were laws in place to attempt to help mitigate that risk… placing the responsibility on the car owners to ensure their cars meet emissions regulations to reduce the impact upon third parties.
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Also my opinion, and the outcome of prohibition would suggest that society at large generally believes this as well.
…with an obvious exception for minorities…
Which was my point. Apparently the politics of it, and decades of anti tobacco propaganda (and I dont intend the normally negative connotation the word has, it just is what it is) have made this acceptable somehow… for an obviously racial/homophobic exception to just be openly declared and apparently acceptable… it’s kinda weird to me.
LOL @ everyone in the comments
“bAnNiNg MeNtHoLs Is RaCiSt!”
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What how
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So if we ban minorities from the logging industry, that’s the opposite of racism? It’s the deadliest occupation on earth…
Fisherman, truck drivers, roofers… ban minorities from all of it to save their lives, because that’s the opposite of racism.
See the flaw in the logic here? Targeting a demographic is, by the simplest definition, an act of racism. Equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. Banning minorities from entire industries would be to their ultimate benefit, and is obviously racist. Like Jim Crow obvious.
Your point is very problematical.
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The bigot continues to spread misinformation and bigotry.
