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But what will boebert do while jerking off dudes at movie theaters?
So many things wrong with this. First thing that pops to mind is that Sunak thinks we actually pay attention to these age restrictions.
A show of hands, who here has smoked before it was legal for you to do so? How about drank alcoholic beverages?
The second thing, how much interest does Sunak have in tobacco alternatives? Probably a lot, considering how much he’s pushing it…
E: autocorrect mishaps.
Ah yes, because making drugs illegal has worked so well in the past.
Setting age limits on substance use is a little different from criminalizing possession/use. In the case of smoking, it has helped reduce rates. This is something backed by people working in public health, who also support decriminalization for possession and bringing in safe consumption sites. It’s all about finding the right approach for an issue.
I’d rather focus on calling out the OTHER bad stuff his government is doing, instead of turning this one partisan based on which party introduced it
Raising age limits on smoking has not reduced rates, making tobacco use taboo in society and knowing how dangerous it is for you has. In the US like 9% use any form of tobacco (which it’s more likely around 7% or less because they include people who have smoked in their lives and quit as well). At this point no one is really smoking… going after tobacco still is just stupid.
It’s more like 18-19% in the US.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10168602/#:~:text=In 2021%2C an estimated 46,hookah)*%20(0.9%25).
Edit: not sure why the link got all fucky but it still works, somehow.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1717/Tobacco-Smoking.aspx
%11…not 18-19% at all.
That’s smoking, not tobacco products use. Vaping, for instance, is its own category.
Tobacco use includes more options, so the numbers will be higher
Not really, cigar and pipe tobacco smokers are a rounding error against the population…nasal snuff users even less. Vaping is only added to pad the numbers. Let’s get real here, cigarette smokers are what is being effected, not other forms of tobacco use which are basically non existent.
By “pad the numbers” you mean “accurately reflect reality?”
I am aware that cigarette smokers are who is affected by this policy but that is not the discussion at hand.
Also raising age limits did reduce smoking rates, but also neither here nor there as this policy is not strictly about raising age to purchase but effectively forming a generational cutoff.
Sunak is really reaching here, to say the least, but the data is the data. It’s not worth trying to ignore reality.
reports from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found people who started smoking before age 21 are more likely to have a high nicotine dependence, and raising the age to buy tobacco to 21 impacts the sale of such products.
found average monthly cigarette sales in Hawaii dropped about 4.4% following the new law. California sales declined 11.7%, and mainland sales dropped 10.6%.
It’s not really an age limit when you’ll never reach it, it’s just gradual criminalization.
That’s not true. It’s a ban on the sale not possession or consumption. The end user is not being criminalized.
Theoretically there’s nothing stopping from importation (barring implementation of another law).
But this isn’t am age limit, its using an age limit as a hack to basically grandfather in a smoking ban. It is about finding the right approach, and this ain’t it.
Why isn’t this it?
For the same reason prohibition of alcohol didn’t work, for the same reason the drug war didn’t work, for the same reason prescription requirements for medically useful narcotics doesn’t work. It doesn’t matter what the law is, people will make their own choices, and if the things are available, legally or not, people that want to use them will use them.
Look at the US. For all it’s faults, it has handled smoking very very well. The younger generation basically doesn’t smoke cigarettes. They’re not banned from it for life, they just were informed about it and so they find it disgusting and don’t really do it. You can’t even really get a date anymore with someone if you smoke cigarettes and you’re under like 40.
This really varies by state, based on the smoking policies. In Republican led states, smoking policies have led to shorter life spans.
Whilst I agree with you in that I don’t think this is an optimal approach, at the same time I’m curious as to whether this would create a significant black market for cigarettes.
Anybody already addicted will continue to have access. Anyone not addicted has to overcome the barrier of acquiring it illicitly, which works in tandem with education about the harm it does.
Considering how bulky cigarettes are compared to most other drugs, I wonder whether most dealers would carry around loads of cigarettes - particularly if they’d be at risk of being prosecuted for having them (which I don’t think is the case here, though).
However, it would probably increase the rate at which weed is cut with tobacco as it increases the addictiveness and ensures customer dependency for the dealers.
I got my first cigarette from a uda (local gang) dealer. So yes there would be a black market for cigs
Making things easily available increases their rates of use
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28850065/
ASH surveys showed a rise in the prevalence of ever use of e-cigarettes from 7% (2016) to 11% (2017) but prevalence of regular use did not change remaining at 1%. In summary, surveys across the UK show a consistent pattern: most e-cigarette experimentation does not turn into regular use, and levels of regular use in young people who have never smoked remain very low.
Except it doesn’t. Vapes are super easy for kids to get, yet somehow they don’t stick with it.
reports from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found people who started smoking before age 21 are more likely to have a high nicotine dependence, and raising the age to buy tobacco to 21 impacts the sale of such products.
found average monthly cigarette sales in Hawaii dropped about 4.4% following the new law. California sales declined 11.7%, and mainland sales dropped 10.6%.
Read the article for fucks sake.
They’re not making the drug illegal, just cigarettes. People who want nicotine still have other options.
It’s like how no one goes out of their way to make/sell pure ethanol, because you can still buy beer or vodka.
That’s still prohibition… it’s flat out dumb. A kid isn’t smoking a $10 cigar…
I loathe Sunak, his political party and their ideals… but this is pretty good actually Maybe he’ll manage to do a single worthwhile thing
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Broken clock right twice a day type of deal with Sunak
One problem: most smokers start as teens, all while it’s forbidden to sell kids the cancer sticks.
Addition: I would punish the selling of tobbaco products to kids even more, including the ability of suing the adults for damages in the future (If it won’t cause a cobra problem later on), and also give the ability to non-smoking workers to sue their employers if they give smokers more breaks.
I think New Zealand implemented a similar measure some years back, it should probably be good to see how well it works there. Hopefully this doesn’t create a black market for tobacco.
Yes we did. Have not heard anything about it since… so it’s probably working as intended.
We’re currently freaking out about vape shops springing up every ten feet.
My first cig was illegally imported and sold by a dealer involved with gangs. All its done is make people get tobacco from their dealer rather than the guy outside the shop.
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Yeah, honestly I think it would make more sense to increase the age at which it’s legal to sell to 25 (under the justification that supposedly that’s when your brain has finished developing), and then allow it from there on to prevent it becoming a way to support illegal activity.
They change their main supplier
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My first cigarette at the ripe old age of 13 was illegally imported. I very much doubt it worked where you live and in reality teens just went more underground with their smoking.
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Yeah but the 18 year old buys for the 15 year old-- brothers, sisters, upperclassmen, etc.
The more that gap becomes larger, the less likely they have social interaction and access. How many 40 year olds buy for 15 year olds today? In 20 something years, 40 year olds will be the youngest purchasers.
also give the ability to non-smoking workers to sue their employers if they give smokers more breaks.
Yeah, one of the best bits of WFH is that I can take as many breaks as my nicotine obsessed colleagues.
And where does teens get the idea to smoke from? Is it from grandpa that coughs louder than a jet engine? Or is it the older cooler teens who got the idea from older teens, who got the…
You get the point.
I smoked as a teen because some of my friends did, they smoked because some of their friends did. And you don’t have to look very far to find the 18-20 year olds who provided them.
Luckily, I never smoked much and mostly kept it to social smoking which made it very easy for me to quit once I grew up and developed some brain-cells that enjoyed co-operating with eachother.
My 13-year-old daughter already has friends who vape. That’s how insidious it is and how deeply embedded in the public consciousness nicotine-based products are.
Most kids aren’t vaping anything with nicotine in it. Most are vaping 0mg juices and trying to look cool blowing clouds. Nicotine isn’t a super addictive chemical, it’s about as addictive as caffeine. Smoking cigarettes and vaping are habit forming, it’s why almost all smoking cessation forms fail multiple times for people.
Thanks, troll, for mixing valid points with blatant bullshit.
Also caffeine is neurotoxin.
https://www.rsph.org.uk/about-us/news/nicotine--no-more-harmful-to-health-than-caffeine-.html
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100713144920.htm
I mean I can back up my claims. This isn’t rocket science. Most kids in the smoking years (50-00s) started smoking to look cool and older…hell there are even studies that show most people hate it at first.
https://www.rsph.org.uk/about-us/news/nicotine--no-more-harmful-to-health-than-caffeine-.html
I didn’t compare harm, I was saying that caffeine is very useful neurotoxin. Meanwhile nicotine is completely useless at best.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/phe-publishes-independent-expert-e-cigarettes-evidence-review
there is much public misunderstanding about nicotine (less than 10% of adults understand that most of the harms to health from smoking are not caused by nicotine)
https://www.rsph.org.uk/about-us/news/nicotine--no-more-harmful-to-health-than-caffeine-.html
Tobacco contains nicotine along with many other chemicals, but nicotine by itself is fairly harmless.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/nicotine-the-wonder-drug
Studies by Quik and others involving rats, mice and nonhuman primates have since found similar effects. In short, by driving dopamine, nicotine appeared to ease the tremors and tics caused by Parkinson’s, and even the movement disorder induced by the major Parkinson’s drug.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8078469/
Nicotine for Alzheimer’s disease
Want me to go on?
Nicotine isn’t the harmful drug the anti-tobacco groups have you believing.
there is much public misunderstanding about nicotine (less than 10% of adults understand that most of the harms to health from smoking are not caused by nicotine)
Soooo? We were talking specifically about nicotine and caffeine, not smoking and drinking coffee. Burning organic compunds is very nasty ofc. Again “it is useless at best”.
Tobacco contains nicotine along with many other chemicals, but nicotine by itself is fairly harmless.
See. Useless at best.
Nicotine is highly addictive. Nice try Mr. Big Tobacco.
That isn’t true, Elf bars and Lost Marys are so easy for kids to get hold of and it is 100% what they’re using.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28850065/
ASH surveys showed a rise in the prevalence of ever use of e-cigarettes from 7% (2016) to 11% (2017) but prevalence of regular use did not change remaining at 1%. In summary, surveys across the UK show a consistent pattern: most e-cigarette experimentation does not turn into regular use, and levels of regular use in young people who have never smoked remain very low.
That data is 6 years out of date and times have massively changed. Seriously, just go walk down the street after the kids have finished school for the day and your eyes will be opened.
This report is from 2 years ago so still out of date, but you can see the change that happened just in the 4 years between this and the one you linked:
Under half (43.0%) of 11 to 18 year olds who were current and former vapers reported always using vaping products that contained nicotine – 17.3% reported always using nicotine-free products. Three out of five (61.3%) 16 to 19 year olds who had vaped in the past 30 days used nicotine in their current product – 17.3% said their product did not contain nicotine.
Over half (58.2%) of 16 to 19 year olds who had vaped in the past 30 days did not feel addicted to vaping but 38.5% said they felt a little or very addicted.
Just under a fifth (18.4%) of current vapers aged 11 to 18 reported experiencing urges to vape almost all the time or all the time.
More 11 to 18 year olds who had tried vaping said they had:…
tried a vaping product and never tried smoking (28.9%)
What evidence do you have that this is not detrimental to their health and development? Because as far as I know, no major studies have been done.
Are you asking if nicotine is bad for you or ???
I just quit vaping like a week or two ago and it was fucking miserable for a week straight. Caffeine isn’t nearly as bad when I’ve quit that, but nicotine withdrawals are fucking horrible and they feel like they last forever.
I quit caffeine and it took me 2 weeks of shakes and fevers to get over it. The withdrawals were horrible. I smoke cigars and pipe tobacco regularly and quit every winter with no issues.
Congrats on quitting. That took a lot of determination, I’m sure.
nicotine is incredibly addictive - and it’s very hard to break. and no, caffeine is less addictive. Much less addictive.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100713144920.htm
https://www.rsph.org.uk/about-us/news/nicotine--no-more-harmful-to-health-than-caffeine-.html
Nicotine is not incredibly addictive, the habit of smoking is. It’s why NRT have basically a 95% failure rate.
Habits forming actions like biting your nails, are also incredibly hard to stop and their is no underlying drug there.
The who nicotine is bad for you and causes cancer is also bullshit. The bad science that was used against smoking and still used today was done for the public good. It’s why a lot of studies are starting to come out that, nicotine isn’t what’s the issue…the inhalation of smoke and the habit of doing so are.
Sorry but no. habits generally take weeks to months to form. that smoking becomes habitual certainly makes quitting harder. there is no doubt there. but, if smoking was far less addictive, it would be far less likely to ever develop as a habit. Remember, that nicotine from smoking (or vaping) starts affecting your brain essentially instantly, creating a dopamine hit, as well as the other affects. it is that which makes nicotine addictive. not some random associated habits that developed over weeks or months.
Also your sources aren’t very good. In the first, there’s no direct link to the studies in question, but based entirely on what was said int he article… I’m doubting very much they took into consideration the use of alternatives by flight attendants- patches and gums are extremely common among FA’s that smoke; specifically to manage the cravings while they’re forbidden from smoking. And from what I can tell with a quick search (I’m far from authoritative here,) snuff has been used as an alternative to smoking on shabbat… from pretty much the first time it was brought to Europe, so I would have to assume patches are also a viable method of controlling cravings there as well.
In any case, nobody really says that nicotine causes cancer. At least, no one even remotely honest.
tobacco use causes cancer. As RSPH notes:
Nicotine is harmful in cigarettes largely because it is combined with other damaging chemicals such as tar and arsenic,
however it goes on to be wrong about one thing:
Electronic cigarettes and Nicotine Replacement Therapy (gum, lozenges, and patches) contain nicotine but don’t contain the harmful substances found in cigarettes.
vapes frequently contain toxic chemicals. many are frequently contaminants from extraction; some are added as flavoring or turn into toxic chemicals because of being vaporized, which changes chemical structures. (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
Nobody really knows for sure what the long term impacts of vaping is- even if the vape juice is just water; we don’t really know if it’s safe or not. One thing people do know is that Nicotine is addictive, and that you keep saying it’s ‘not that bad’ makes me think maybe you’re trying to justify something. I don’t care if you smoke or vape. nobody here does. But I do care that you’re spreading misinformation about things.
Talk to any one whose tried quitting both caffeine and nicotine. there’s really no comparison between the two; and saying there’s not is patent bullshit.
Why do you think nicotine is not very addictive? I saw several studies that called it a highly addictive substance (for example this review about e-cigarettes). By the way, the review is overall very interesting and worth reading.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100713144920.htm
Nicotine is about as addictive as caffeine. It sucks but the habit is what causes people to stay addicted. It’s why nicotine replacement treatments don’t work, and why vaping has a way higher success rate of getting people to stop than anything pharma companies have come up with.
links single paper supporting point amongst the hundreds that refute it
paper is written by a guy on the payroll of a tobacco company
Lmfao.
The review study I linked says vaping doesn’t have higher success rate when it comes to stopping.
Nicotine is on the same level of addictiveness as heroin and cocaine lol.
That sounds like some D.A.R.E. bullshit. If that’s the case then I’d be perfectly fine trying heroin once because I won’t get addicted to it. I’ve tried nicotine a few times, now, and I have less than zero interest in trying it again. You can make your point without being hyperbolic
You probably wouldn’t get addicted to heroin on the first try… Have you never taken opiate painkillers? Were you immediately addicted after your first dose? Sounds like DARE failed you as well.
You do not get the same high with nicotine as you do with heroin. It’s a bullshit lie told to kids to keep them from smoking. So many of you seem to have swallowed this crap hook line and sinker.
Most kids aren’t vaping anything with nicotine in it. Most are vaping 0mg juices and trying to look cool blowing clouds. Nicotine isn’t a super addictive chemical, it’s about as addictive as caffeine.
Yes the same FDA who pushes for NRT…the same NRT that have people failing to quit…and committing suicide while on them…also no where in your link does it show what mg kids are vaping.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28850065/
ASH surveys showed a rise in the prevalence of ever use of e-cigarettes from 7% (2016) to 11% (2017) but prevalence of regular use did not change remaining at 1%. In summary, surveys across the UK show a consistent pattern: most e-cigarette experimentation does not turn into regular use, and levels of regular use in young people who have never smoked remain very low.
1% is what your looking at for kids that get addicted to vaping…
Yeah, but then ultimately it becomes illegal for everyone to own them. Meaning shops cant sell them.
Then comes the black-market.
Black market of dead souls.
Great goal but like with all other narcotics, wouldn’t this just create a huge black market and thus massively fund criminal organizations?
That’s gonna work splendidly since underage people would never dare to smoke!
Ehhhhhh, you make it permanently harder for a generation and eventually, barring a political change, you need to find an 80 year old to boot cigarettes for you from that one shop down the road that still caters to a rapidly shrinking audience.
Not to say that this is a good idea or one with which but long-term, it could work. (Or at least reduce smoking to a relatively minor few.)
It’s a nice theory but it does sort of forget that other countries exist - the black marketeers will just smuggle tobacco in. They’re also going to be guaranteed a market of younger immigrants who’ve gotten addicted in another country.
Sure, at first, absolutely, though even then you are raising the cost of smokes, not just financially but convenience, potential customer base (not everyone has the connections or would feel comfortable buying on the resale market) etc.
Long run, sure, smokers will probably always exist. But at the point where it’s awkward to smoke in public you’ve probably cut down on a good percentage of smoking at all.
Eventually stores will just stop selling them. Why stock cigarette when you only sell 10 packs a month.
I think it’s a great idea. People will create a black market for them, but it will be really small and die out.
It’s not like you really get anything from it like you do from alcohol or other drugs.
This is a woefully ignorant take
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People will create a black market for them, but it will be really small and die out.
There’s already a black market for tobacco, and it will just grow in size not shrink. You can buy 50g for like £5 on DNMs.
Yeah, the risk is that if the black market becomes large enough, it will mean youths will have easier access to cheaper cigarettes than the current situation (with the added issue of cigarettes being entirely unregulated, meaning they’re going to put God knows what in them).
It’s not like you really get anything from it like you do from alcohol or other drugs.
Similar ehhhhhh as earlier.
There are moments when a cigarette gives you an amazing or just right, feeling, for lack of a better word. In reality you’re just sating a self inflicted addiction, but it can feel great to do so.
I don’t think it’s a good trade, that’s why I no longer smoke, but I understand the simple pleasure. Even if in the long, medium, heck, often even short term that pleasure has stupid costs.
It’s still gonna slowly reduce use. And that’s better than nothing.
Or do it like Germany: make vaping extremely expensive so people go back to smoking. Stupid.
We must save people from themselves! Don’t let them make any decisions since they could make bad ones!
I think this is deeply illiberal. There are some cases where bans make sense like the XXL Bully dog ban that has been mooted. But I don’t think the government should be able to decide what an adult puts in their own body.
My dad was an oncologist for years and he said that one of the reasons we’re having trouble in the NHS is that people have stopped smoking. Unfortunately if you are stricken with lung cancer then your prognosis is not good - and while this is a tragedy - you potentially could end up costing much more money in terms of social care and hospital visits if you carry on to live to a later age but get stricken with a more complex degenerative disease.
This is disappointing. Honestly I has found Sunak to be a relief on the whole after our previous few Prime Ministers, probably on par with Therasa May. In my opinion this is a cynical attempt to steal a policy that Labour’s Wes Streeting was going to announce soon in order to take the wind out of his sails.
From someone who has smoked and quit, I was really blind sided by how addictive nicotine was. People talk about adults and what they put in there body but nicotine really is a different monster
Imagine turning 18 (or whatever the smoking age is in the UK) and starting to smoke during the year this rule takes effect. Then, every year from that point forward, you’d have to wait for your birthday to start smoking again.
I don’t know if that’s feasible given that adults are adults after all. But maybe just restrict the sale of cigarettes and make it so burdensome to sell them in shops so most don’t even bother. And do the same for vapes. Vapes are ridiculously easy to buy so stick them in the same locked cabinet that other nicotine products go in and ban all advertising and signage.
