Hello I just created this Account for this Question. Is it okay to support Israel in the middle east conflict? I’m from Europe and have no ties at all to any Side. Its just that I lean more to the Side of Israel then any other. Is this okay? Is it up to debate which Side is to support or is one of them clearly in the Wrong? (Like Russia is in the Wrong attacking Ukraine or Germany attacking Polland 1939).
EDIT: For clarification: Im talking about their Settlements and their military campaigns NOT about their government.
If this Post is too political please remove and I’m deeply sorry for that.
No.
they’re both absolutely awful pieces of shit.
but here are my thoughts:
- They’re both awful religious theocracies that want to exterminate the other side
- Israel tends to leave citizens from other countries in peace, whereas Hamas has shown no mercy to germans or british citizens they’ve captured
- Israeli soldiers don’t rape and parade prisoners
- Israel has however been brutalizing Palestinians, with evidence of individual soldiers killing Palestinian children at random. It doesn’t seem to be Doctrine though. Israel also has Apartheid Structures discriminating against Palestinians
- The People captured by Hamas mostly were in a Zone that the UN has declared to be illegally occupied by Israel
- There are Reports of Hamas Fighters going around and rounding up civilians for mass-executions
So yeah, it is a really really complicated Situation with no clear good or bad side. My personal stance on this is:
- I hope the Israeli Military can free the hostages taken by Hamas and bring the Perpetrators of the Massacres we hear about to justice (if the Reports of the Massacres are true)
- I am afraid that the hard-line anti-Palestinian Government of Israel will use this as an excuse to terrorize Palestinians and make them suffer
- I hope that in the End the internationally recognized and agreed-upon borders will be restored. I do hope however, that it will not happen as a Consequence of this military action, as it would embolden the use of Terrorism, Massacres and Hostage-Taking as a negotiation Tactic.
It’s not complicated. One side is doing a genocide, the other is resisting it. Screw everyone saying this is a complicated issue, it’s not.
You’re right. There’s zero Jewish representation in the Arab world while Arabs make up about 20% of the Israeli population (and hold positions of power within the country). Israel is a tolerant society while saud, Qatar, etc. are largely intolerant of Jewish existence (they genocided their own Jewish populations).
You said they’re both pieces of shit and then went on to outline how one group doesn’t commit the atrocities of the other group, and generally just wants to exist. They’re not the same.
When Isreal openly advocates for Jews of other nationalities to come illegally occupy land that has supposedly been set aside for Palestinians they’re doing so to displace and replace them. How many resolutions about Palestine have been vetoed by only the US and Isreal with the rest of the world unilaterally telling Israel to cut it out? Shit, this one is from 7 years ago and was one of 18(!!!) similar resolutions against Isreal that year…
What Isreal is doing is genocide. I don’t for a minute condone all the methods Hamas is employing, but what’s happening is a predictable response from an increasingly desperate people
Morally, it’s a complicated situation.
Geopolitically, Israel probably has the support of most Western nations simply due to the fact that they engage in diplomacy and have proper decorem, with a government system that is a relatively modern system despite political leanings.
Additionally, Israel has a better human rights record DOMESTICALLY than Palestine and the Gaza region. It’s still dominated by religion, terrorist leaders, and its own population’s semi-justified bitterness. Freedom of expression and freedom of press is heavily restricted, just like any other Islamic religious state in the middle east.
The sole responsibility of the escalation and subsequent destabilization of the region lies with Hamas. The sole responsibility of the withdrawal of Palestinian aid from countries like Austria, lies with Hamas.
And with all the videos popping up over the treatment and killing of Israeli civilians, it’s hard for the Western world, and especially Western governments to garner the sympathy for the Palestinian people that they had 1 week ago.
Both sidesing isn’t correct, whataboutism isn’t correct, blindly supporting either side isn’t correct, supporting efforts to contain the conflict is correct. The best way to do that is to monitor Israel’s progress in containing Hamas.
We know that Hamas hides in schools and civilian buildings, using their own civilians as a shield. That’s a warcrime it itself. So it’s going to be messy as hell.
The US sent the USS Gerald Ford into the Mediterranean as a deterrent. If any country starts to try to 3rd party the conflict, oh shit oh fuck WW1 vibes. That’s how tender this situation is.
And with 1 other active conflict in the world, this is shaky ground.
It’s been a long time since I’ve read such a sensible comment from this situation.
To OP, I don’t know how to put it, but I feel there’s no real side to pick, expect for zealots and fanatics. A colonizing oppressive state is 150% wrong. Execution of civilians and exploiting your people misery to lead them to a theocratic disaster is 150% wrong.
I’m from a both jew and muslim family and… I’m glad they feel the same way.
Israel bombed some building in Palestine. The whole towers were flattened. That’s a war crime. Just because you do it with a fighter jet doesn’t make it more humane.
The apartheid is also a slow murder. I’d be interested to see statistics for all the people who died because of the blocus and the apartheid.
They are both wrong and they are both right. Up until this past week, I tended to be more sympathetic towards Palestine. Unfortunately, the most recent terrorist attack by Hamas was against more than just Israel or its military. It was a terrorist attack at a music festival, and Hamas attacked citizens of multiple nations.
It’s a lot easier to support Israel right now. It sounds like they’re about to commit their own atrocities though, so you might have to flip your position tomorrow.
Both sides suck. Any more elaboration is likely to piss off a lot of people, so let’s keep it simple.
Both suck for different reasons.
But also both are doing damage on different scales…
The whole thing sucks.
Problem is Hamas is Israel’s own creation. They funnelled them money.
Israel responded by blowing up mosques and apartment buildings. They cut off power to everything, including hospitals. They’re blockading to prevent any supplies from entering Gaza. Both sides are committing war crimes and intentionally targeting civilians. Nobody is right here. Supporting either side is encouraging a religious war.
The problem is hamas hides amongst the population, knowing that if Israel hits them, civilians will die too, further fanning the flames.
Those dead civilians obviously radicalize survivors, adding to the ranks. The uninvolved civilians have no power to remove hamas from their space, so their fate is coupled.
This is no comment on the demolitions or other general brutality Israel has been up to, just a discussion on how hamas operates
That’s mostly because of logistics, they have much less resources, Israel is supported majorly by the US, Israel has stuff like the Iron Dome. If Palestine/Hamas would set up any dedicated posts, they’d simply be bombed to oblivion, and that would be that. If they want to fight, being covert about it is their literal only choice.
Still shitty of course, but I’m pretty sure they don’t want to do it if there were any better alternatives to keep the fight up.
The other Problem is that Israel is using Civilians as Settlers to establish a Claim in illegally occupied territories (determined so by the UN, not me)
just to be very clear: fuck Hamas and all the shit they did, and i hope that they pay very very heavily for all the atrocities they’ve committed. But i just wanted to show you, that noone in the Region really takes international law seriously
Why do you support them?
Why support them without disclosing reasons?
Isn’t it reasoning that would make it OK or not OK?
Im talking about their Settlements and their military campaigns NOT about their government.
What does that even mean? Both of those are inherently political and driven from government. I don’t see how you can separate them.
Here’s the thing, at the core of it, neither the people living in the israelian part nor the ones living in the palestinian one are really at fault here. The general public in general has no time for petty politics, being to busy to make a life. What you really want to blame are the agitators, the people who make it their life to create issues where there are none.
The majority of the population on both sides just want to live their own life in peace and they are not allowed to. So if you want to side wkth someone, side with them.
Blame the politicians who promote discord and occupation, blame the guerillas who attack innocent civilians, blame the religious proponents who spread hatred and bile. And plead with the general public to stop being such a bunch of pussies and actually put a stop to all the warmongering for everyone’s sake. Which is something we should all do, everywhere. But we won’t because we’re all pussies as well.
We’re not pussies; we’re poor.
By the way we trash talk on the internet, i’d say we’re pretty rich… in spirit.
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its like supporting russia, but more mainstream
I would recommend reading history if you’re thinking about supporting one side vs another. I personally think Israel has the ability to end this tomorrow if they choose, but I don’t support the violence coming from Hamas.
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Israeli people and Palestinian people both have a legitimate claim to live in the land surrounding Jerusalem. Palestinians are mostly muslim, and there are other muslim places to live. Israeli people are mostly jewish, and there are no other jewish places to live. That said, religion isn’t ethnicity. Palestinians may be the same religion as other muslims, but they’re not the same race. Just like black americans are mostly christian, but that doesn’t mean they’re the same race as white americans. Israeli people can’t be guaranteed fair treatment elsewhere. Palestinian people have a right to live in their homes.
Israeli and Palestianian people both have a valid and important need to live in the holy land. So the simple solution is, they should both live there. That’s a solution supported by a lot of Isreali and Palestinian people. But it’s not a solution supported by the government of Israel. The government of Israel wants political control over the whole region, and to be able to legally and systemically put jews first.
I don’t think the correct answer is “support” or “don’t support”, because that’s too broad. I think the correct answer is to support the people’s rights, and support the government’s desire for safety for its people, but not to support the government’s treatment of palestinians.
So you’re saying disband both governments, replace with an international peace keeping force. That actually makes sense.
Also a lot of both Jews and Arabs just hate the other side so it’s not really the govt problem here.
I don’t think religion is just a justification for owning any land. That’s kind of a backwards take. Regressive, really.
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Which part?
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That’s a solution supported by a lot of Isreali and Palestinian people. But it’s not a solution supported by the government of Israel. The government of Israel wants political control over the whole region, and to be able to legally and systemically put jews first.
Bro/sis you took the words off my tongue.
Nonbinary sib.
there are no other Jewish places to live
This is such a weird stance. What even is this position that is nonchalantly thrown into the argument as if it even matters.
It’s the position of zionists. I threw it in for completeness, and added a counterargument. If you want me to explain their position more thoroughly, zionists believe that Jewish safety can only be guaranteed by Jewish independence. In any democracy, minorities are only protected as long as the majority vote for their interests. Zionists desire a state with a jewish majority, to guarantee safety. I don’t believe in states because I’m an anarchist, but I empathise with wanting the protection of a state.
In the United States, I find the Zionist argument to mostly be a racist Christian push to remove Jews from the US.
I recognize that people may believe it without that racism… But it’s just a crazy argument to me… And I think the way you originally presented it is the way that is normalized by extreme Christian organizations in the US which is why I called it out.
I like to fight against my opponent’s strongest position. If I were to ignore my opponent’s best arguments, then those I educate could change their minds later when they run into those arguments. If I acknowledge their best argument and refute it, then there’s nothing more they can do in the debate. OP didn’t know the first thing about Israel when I made that first comment. They ought to know why Israel thinks it’s in the right. If I say Israel are bad and don’t explain why they’re being bad, then I’m not properly educating OP. Every hateful or evil group in the world has some kind of reason they think they’re in the right. Understanding these reasons is essential.
Excellent.
This conflict is so old now that it is absolutely safe to say: both sides are somewhat right and somewhat wrong.
Having said that, and because we are in such a special sub here: if you support Israel, you get entitled for Jewish heaven later! :-)
If you are comfortable with your understanding of the situation and arguing for whichever side you choose to support instead of just refusing to hear anything to the contrary then support whoever you want.
Just know this isn’t like a sports team where there’s only superficial differences. It’s also ok to say I’m not informed enough to take one side or the other, or maybe only lean one way. You can point to unethical behavior on both sides, but I think it’s not unreasonable for people to hold one side more at blame than the other. Look into the history of the region and the ongoing discussion.
Thanks for being perhaps the only comment here trying to be helpful to those who aren’t deeply familiar with the conflict.
I think an important emphasis here is that people shouldn’t accept explanations of the situation that make things easy to understand.
It’s also ok to support neither or to say it’s too complicated to pick a side.
This conflict is so ridiculously complicated.
There’s a pretty big asymmetry between the shit the Illegal Occupation of Palestine does, and the limited resistance attempts of Hamas.
Also, Hamas would have never existed if their people weren’t constantly under genocide, so fuck everyone here both-sidesing this.
You are attempting to make a notoriously difficult and nuanced conflict into a simplistic black-and-white issue with your useless and insulting virtue signaling. So, what can one say to your comment? Fuck you, too, I guess? Grow up. There are two sides here, each with their legitimate interests and concerns. Geopolitics is hard, dumb-ass.
You ever wonder what it would be like if you had self-esteem & were proud of your values instead of complaining about others having virtues?
“Lets have some nuance” people on their way to defend nazi war criminals
psaltery
noun
an ancient and medieval musical instrument like a dulcimer but played by plucking the strings with the fingers or a plectrum.
yeah idk what happened there chief.
Also Hamas was empowered by the Israeli state by the distruction of secular opposition.
Not disimilar to how the US armed the Taliban & created a power vacuum for them to fill
But whatabout the US??
It’s an apt comparison, there aren’t many examples so on the nose about deliberately destabilizing secular groups and Islamist groups filling the power vacuum, only to become a more violent threat.
If you want you could compare it to the allied powers starving the Spanish Republic of resources, enabling the rise of the Nazis, but it’s a bit of a stretch.
Sure, but so what? Nobody was talking about the US here.
Ok do you understand what an analogue is?
Perhaps Lemmy needs a “translate to simple English feature for you”
🤦♀️
