Title. Mainly asking for the library side, but PC cafe is also interesting to ask about.
Mainly since Windows 11 is 64-bit only, and it seems Windows 12 is going to subscription based on top of that, neither of which public libraries can afford tossing out computers and paying more in subscription fees than they make with overdue books.
My local library is only open for 2 days a week, due to a lack of funds for hiring more staff in the area. They use older Dell all in ones, and that just makes me think if they don’t have the money for being open 5 days a week, they don’t have the money to buy 4 new computers for the space.
Not even getting into the bigger libraries part of that system or the ones nearby. Some have 8 computers in groups, with 4 stations of groups.
So I was just wondering, if anyone has started or is aware of a Library/Public Computer focused linux-based OS? Perhaps one that allows immutable systems, and the library card system backed most use to enable end user access. Perhaps that’s a config file tucked away somewhere.
And I guess the PC cafe OS is interesting, simply due to the fact that Linux gaming has been making huge strides, and PC cafes are still popular in Japan, Korea, and China.
EDIT: I am not in control or assistance to the library, just looking if there’s a potential solution to libraries like mine. If I could give links to a library computer manager, or if I could give upstream bug reports to people making such software.
NixOS is immutable and highly reproducible, with the ability to rebuild identical systems with a declarative configuration file–including installed packages.
So in the case of multiple public computers, you would only need to create/maintain one configuration file that defines all of the user profiles, permissions, restrictions, settings, software packages, you name it.
It would without a doubt be what i’d choose for a fleet of public library computers. Extremely reliable and easy to setup to prevent tampering or misuse.
I wouldn’t. Relying on a cookie-cutter distro like NixOS is a recipe for disaster in the long run, IMO. I mean, sure, you could set it all up exactly how you want, but the next person coming in to replace you may not be familiar with NixOS. And there’s no guarantee you’d be around to train them - in my circles we call this the “getting run over by the bus” problem. More importantly, organisations need to be able to get reliable support - support from an actual organization they can count on, when shit hits the fan.
Choose an industry standard, well-supported distro like Debian/Fedora/OpenSUSE (or immutable variants like Fedora Silverblue/openSUSE MicroOS) deploy it using Kickstart/Preseed/Cobbler, and configure/maintain it using Ansible. If you’ve got large number of users to manage, use a centralized user/identity management system like FreeIPA or JumpCloid.
Don’t go for cookie-cutter distros unless you want to be their IT person forever.
What does “cookie-cutter” mean in this context?
It means DIY/hobbyist/niche.
If the config file is well documented, you don’t need to worry too much about that bus. And it isn’t several user accounts, it’s a computer that needs to be accessible to nearly everybody. Like said in other comments, a script to destroy everything on logout, and then add a configuration to logout on idle.
That’s not the point though, the point is about support.
The main issue is with cookie cutter distros like this is, things break, and when that happens, getting support can be a PITA. In fact I experienced this myself on more than a couple of occasions. Most recently, I ran a
nix-channel --updatewhich then brokenixos-rebuild switch. I couldn’t figure it out, asked online and they said nothing was wrong with my config, so I ended up restoring to a previous snapshot. This was just a VM btw so not a big deal, but I’d never run NixOS as my main, never mind putting it on user-facing machines in a public organization.The library won’t be able to find someone to support a random OS like “NixOS”. Just imagine putting out a job advert for that. Actually, they probably won’t be hiring a dedicated IT person in the first place, so they’ll reach out to some MSP and it’s highly unlikely they’ll be able to find some company willing to support it.
Just because you’re good and familiar with some obscure piece of technology doesn’t mean that it’s the right choice for an organization - because that’s how you build up technical debt. This sort of stuff happens all the time, I work for a MSP and often come across some adhoc DIY thing built by some random employee who left the company ages ago and now no one knows how it works, so they never maintained the thing and everyone’s scared to touch it lest it breaks something.
@queue
nixos with the surf display manager https://search.nixos.org/options?channel=23.05&show=services.xserver.desktopManager.surf-display.enable&from=0&size=50&sort=relevance&type=packages&query=surfservices.xserver.desktopManager.surf-display.enable = true; services.xserver.desktopManager.surf-display.defaultWwwUri = "https://yourlibrary.com/internalzone";and you should be set. Depends of course on whether you want them to be able to run programs and stuff…
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I agree that this is a good choice. But I doubt library staff will have the technical background to set this up. But if some local volunteer could do it, it would be a good option.
Anything would work; people don’t
There are people that think Linux is all terminal based and refuse to use it because of that
You people jump on wild rumors like crazy. Windows isn’t going to be subscription based on 12.
I hope you’re right but seeing as every major part of Microsoft that used to be a one time purchase is now subscription based, I dont hold my breath on it.
Mark my words.
Nah, I am doubtful. They’re trying to hang on to OS market share with both hands while iPadOS and Mac OS are creeping in on their personal computing dominance and ChromeOS eats their lunch in education and is taking a run at enterprise as kids who grew up using Chromebooks at school are graduating.
If Windows goes subscription, they lose enterprise, and that means they can’t sell any of their other products. More likely, that subscription thing was about subscribing to AI stuff that’ll be baked in to Win12.
They need the platform to sell everything else.
They’ve been switching all their software to subscription based, it’s coming for windows too, it’s less a question of if but rather of when. I’m sure there’ll be a “free” edition though, with more ads and whatever else they can think of. Enshittification doesn’t stop.
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We do not joke about such things
Then learn to fact check instead of believing rumours.
You misunderstand me. I was glibly remarking we don’t separate people from their rights
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Joking or not, autists and normal people alike are protected from wishes such as yours 😎
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Are you surprised that the Linux community on what is basically open source Reddit is disproportionately autistic?
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Boosting so I can revisit this comment in a couple years.
Neat.
There have been rumors that Windows is going to become a subscription software for over 10 years. I remember it when Windows 8 was in development.
Are you in control of the library, or is this just as a recommendation?
Not in control, just curious if I could give assistance to my local library.
To summarise: use a terminal server system if you can, using a desktop for the end user that can be made to behave like windows (or another concept that works for your demography), and have the whole setup in a NixOS configuration that you manage in git.
I see that https://github.com/ltsp/ltsp is still going strong.
I’m generally not a fan of endless os (very locked down), but this might be a good low-maintenance option for libraries.
Endless comes out of the box with offline educational materials and learning apps.
Flatpak based distribution.
I don’t imagine there’d be a specific distro but you could absolutely lock a Linux machine down to be usable as a kiosk
Real question would be why though, a computer is a computer to the majority of people and you can always just bring your own laptop if you want Linux for yourself
For many people the library computer is the only computer they have access to.
Windows lincenses also cost money so if they can get an OS working for free that is probably going to be a massive plus.
I don’t think Linux would be cheaper in the long run in that scenario, most young people could fix common problems with a windows machine whereas Linux needs someone with Linux experience
I also think people without access to their own computer are probably not worried about the operating system it’s running as long as they have a functional system, unless they are trying to learn how Linux works but they wouldn’t be able to do that with a locked down public computer anyway
As a librarian this is an awesome idea but unlikely to work out long term for a couple of reasons relating to the libraries.
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Patrons will absolutely freak out if the computer they sit down at doesn’t look like the Windows machine they are expecting. Even the time-keeping software we use makes people uncomfortable and it’s just a countdown clock for the 30 minutes they signed up for. I’ve had a very expensive Mac desktop for art and music software go totally unused for years because most patrons want a Windows computer to check their Hotmail. Librarian sobs
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Unless the library 'technologist" or IT team is already really into Linux in their off time AND paid well enough to bring that experience with them to the office, the people tasked with keeping it running will fail within 6 months and revert it back to something they can fix fast. Generally there’s one IT department that’s handing the libraries and other government run service offices and they will not take the time to do anything out of the ordinary.
Maybe for a subset of computers in a large library like the stand-up quick access stations or catalog lookup computers near the books. Linux can and does a lot of good keeping these one-use stations going despite the fact the run on 1998 Dell Potatoes.
Absolutely agreed. Something facing the public like this is supposed to be comfortable and familiar first and foremost. Works like a charm if you know what you’re doing but we’re not able to expect that from the general library computer owners…
In my experience as soon as they get a web browser, people don’t care. Most people are lost when they have to deal with the file manager on Windows anyway…
Problem is people are really sensitive to change
We see it as “oh just open the browser and it’s the same” they see a foreign system, different icons, UI elements, etc and panic
We’ve got the biased viewpoint of people who know computers well enough not to be afraid of breaking something by clicking the wrong button
I imagine if you put a windows skin on KDE or something to make everything look the same they wouldn’t even notice though
My experience with “real” people is that they don’t even see the difference. Only so-called “Windows power users” are annoyed.
I got my mother a Chromebook and she used it for years, even tried to explain her it was not the same as her previous Windows PC she never understood it was not the same.
Library computers never used to look like windows. They were terminals into a larger system that allowed people to look up information, and the UI was just simplified to just that. People coped fine.
I’m pretty sure you don’t say “anything goes” on library computers, so they are going to have some kind of restricted interface already. As long as that is navigable to the things that are allowed, people will cope.
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My local library uses some sort of Linux for the card catalogue. I don’t use the general purpose library computers, but I think they are some flavour of Linux as well.
My impression was that they were probably sold as a low maintenance plug-and-play solution.
My local library is part of a larger library system, so I’m pretty sure the librarians won’t know anything about them, that any computer maintenance is handled by somebody dispatched from the head branch. I’ll still try and have a look here in a bit.
By “never used to”, when are you talking about? I think the last time I saw a terminal catalog in the way you’re describing was 1995.
Pretty much every thing after that was a modified Windows install of one flavor or another with an intranet or web catalog interface for the user.
I’ll buy that they were kept longer in some.places than othern but where and when are you pointing to?
Yes, I’m probably talking 20 years ago, but well into the era of windows being the dominant home operating system and the internet being a thing. As long as people can see an icon and double click it to get a web browser, they’re happy.
To your first point, a huge portion of the use library computers get is from people who don’t own or can’t afford their own computer but just need to print government/work/school docs with some minimal document editor. Sure you could run with LibreOffice or something and hope no one cares, but you’re right that most people would freak out if they can’t open something in Word or have to learn how to print something in Gnome/KDE/whatever.
Most of them are following instructions they are getting from elsewhere to do those tasks and most instructions the offices are giving out are expecting a Windows computer. I still have a lot of users looking for the Blue E. headdesk
While I love Linux and free choice in OS, it’s painful that this needs to be said, and painful that it’s being attacked so harshly. Having watched people have meltdowns in university libraries after having to use OSX instead of the already taken PC’s, people will likely lose their shit. Hell, they lose their shit over stupid things like start menus being on the top of the screen or Firefox instead of Chrome…
On your second point, I’m sure there is an argument towards free Linux education for a specific sector where Linux has a genuine benefit. The problem as I see it is libraries are often council/government run, and you’d basically need to petition at that point to say “you will pay X for Windows, use Y, which supports all of your old, clunky hardware, with free training on us, and you’ll save Y”.
Of course, this all involves having a distro that’ll easily solve driver issues for 20+ year old printers and fax machines, with support for the shitty web interface libraries use that require IE7 or it flips out, and great support if something does go wrong…all while ensuring that Microsoft won’t just give out cheap subscriptions to keep libraries on their tab.
I strongly disagree with your first point. Kids these days are more familiar with ChromeOS than Windows. Google has proven that as long as it has Chrome and a taskbar at the bottom people will be fine with it.
For long term support I also disagree with #2. The company I work for develops software that goes into both windows and Linux environments. The Windows environments are several orders of magnitude harder to secure and maintain because you never know what bullshit Microsoft is going to pull with their updates.
It may be easier to find a Windows IT person to maintain the system but it’s going to be significantly more expensive and significantly less reliable than an immutable OS like Fedora silverblue.
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The vast majority of computer users at my libraries have been adults over 50. The kids in my areas use the Chrome OS Computers they are getting from the schools.
If we had a lot of under 25s coming in to use the public PCs, I agree that Chrome OS would be a good pick.
Sorry, but definitely not true.
Source: See my comment regarding the majority of danish municipalities using Linux. No problem for the users or the people doing the sysadmin work.
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That would be my guess, yes. Why would the danish librians and users in libraries differ from other places? We’re talking ordinary people with an average in computer knowledge in cities and libraries of all sizes.
Being a dane you have to explain the Missouri reference. If you mean something like small cities, see above.
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As I said, I cannot see the big difference. Please spell it out for me 🙂
The ‘definitely not true’ part was a reply to ‘ain’t gonna fly, Liberians and people can’t use Linux’. Which is a statement from one person without any evidence to back it up. The evidence shows it’s a false statement, because it is in fact working on a large scale in Denmark, without issues and people are happy with it.
So yeah, it is ‘definitely not true’.
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I know the Danish OS2 foundation maintains a distro explicitly for Public computers in libraries.
When searching, I see a lot the OS2-based Danish library websites, but can’t find their own website. Can you provide a link or more info on this distro?
For those saying NixOS has no commercial support, there is: https://nixos.org/community/commercial-support
Puppy Linux and easyos have those options… It’s been a bit since I’ve used them tho…
I don’t know if there’s a distro made specifically with libraries in mind, but I would lean toward the Cinnamon DE because it’s the easiest to fool people into thinking it’s Windows out of the box.
The main issue would be folks coming in to use MS Office. LibreOffice compatibility with MS office’s formats isn’t perfect and sometimes it’ll mangle formatting.
Work with informationsecurity and GDPR. And know as a fact that many danish municipalities which administrate the libraries are using, and are happy with, Linux as public facing citizen PC’s in libraries.
They use OS2borgerPC, which translates to OS2citizenPC which is maintained and supported by the danish company Magenta. But it’s open source, so if you are in another country you could just use it - or better, give Magenta a call. They’re great and very reseaonable.
Magenta: https://www.magenta.dk/en/ OS2borgerPC on github: https://github.com/OS2borgerPC
Hey I live in Denmark! How unexpected it is to hear Linux runs in some municipalities: in my sector you only hear of Microsoft running on most of the public infra but my knowledge is limited to Copenhagen.
That is very cool
So, just to be clear, there’s no actual relation to OS/2?
Good question, but no 🙂
OS2 is a organization which coordinate software development for the participating municipalities and companies which sign up for delivering FOSS. I think OS2 stand for Open Source Software, but not sure.
More about OS2 here: https://www.os2.eu/in-english
OS2🍔PC
Does it need more then a webbrowser and a rfid card reader? I dont know how those library backend systen work but most systems save data in a plain ol database.
I don’t see a reason why they cant already use a limux based OS except that someone will need an employee or volunteer to set it all up and support.
I don’t know if something like this exists, but I think the right solution for you would be something that my school did with our computers. They had installed Mint on it, but it was configured in a way, that when you rebooted the whole user profile would be resetted.
Windows has had this for literally decades, too. You have to use a 3rd party software, but it exists and is easy to use.
