I understand the intent, but feel that there are so many other loopholes that put much worse weapons on the street than a printer. Besides, my prints can barely sustain normal use, much less a bullet being fired from them. I would think that this is more of a risk to the person holding the gun than who it’s pointing at.
Who pays for the background check? If it’s the individual, this would kill 3d printing in New York. If someone else, it would still probably kill 3d printing just because of the extra resistance to purchase.
In other news: virtue signaling politicians are considering banning [scary items that their core voters know nothing about] in order to appear tough on crime, while avoiding doing the logical things experts recommend, because that would look bad in the eyes of the voters. Instead the only consequence is extending the stigma related to excons resulting in greater recidivism
Googling 3d printed gun homicide returns a story from Rhode Island in 2020 (where the police can’t figure out if the gun was actually printed), an attempted murder in Reykjavík in 2022, and this story from 2022 that claims a total of 44 arrests were made related to 3d printed guns… world wide https://3dprint.com/291684/3d-printed-gun-arrests-tripled-in-less-than-two-years-3dprint-com-investigates/amp/
In contrast there were 48117 firearms related deaths in the US during the same period.
Maybe statistics and proportions should be a core part of math from an early age?
These guns are increasingly being found at crime scenes. You may not like NY’s solution, but the problem is growing.
Sources please?
Some things cannot be effectively regulated in this manner. At all.
There is simply no way to stop people from building their own 3D printers. There are too many open source designs, and they can be built with very simple parts that are readily available at the hardware store. Most hobbyist-level 3D printers basically come as a kit that they have to assemble themselves anyways. What happens next? Background checks to buy stepper motors? Background checks to buy a microcontroller?
To me this is like trying to mandate government backdoors in encryption algorithms. There is literally nothing that would stop criminals from just using an open source encryption algorithm that doesn’t have a backdoor, so you end up just making it so all legitimate communications are less secure than they should be.
I have two issues with your comment, and the tldr is this “I don’t think the problem warrants the resources needed” and “I don’t think the proposed bill will solve anything, problem or not”.
These guns are increasingly being found at crime scenes.
Probably, I don’t have a source for that, but I suspect that you’re not wrong. What I would like to know is the proportions of gun grimes involving 3d-printed guns vs gun crimes in total. I suspect what others have said in this post, about the percentage of gun related crimes that involve 3d-printed guns, to be within a rounding error, to also be correct.
You may not like NY’s solution, […]
It’s not that I don’t like the “solution”. It’s that I don’t accept the proposed ban as being a solution in the first place. I don’t want to come off as being snarky, I just wanted to make sure that my understanding of the word “solution” was correct. English not being my first language, I sometime miss the salient details. So, I took a moment and googled “definition solution”. According to “Oxford Languages” a solution is a means of solving a problem or dealing with a difficult situation.
Can you in all honesty claim, that you believe that limiting acquiring 3d-printing capabilities, in a single state, will reduce the use of 3d-printed parts in gun crimes?
[…] but the problem is growing.
Again, the occurrence of 3d-printed guns or gun parts may be growing, but is it actually a problem big enough that it has to be dealt with? And with the resources necessary to enforce this proposal? Isn’t gun manufacturing already limited? As others have pointed out, why not limit access to other tools you could use to make guns?
As OP pointed out, the intent may be noble, but the attempt is futile.
This is 'murica. we use Webster’s here.
(sorry. couldn’t resist. you are correct. this isn’t a solution.)
And if I download a parts list, buy the components, and make the printer myself I guess I can just cruise new york “printing guns” for people without any hassle from the man.
Printing ghost guns, so far, is just a boogyman politicians trot out when one of their corporate sponsors thinks one of their revenue streams might be threatened by DIYers.
I agree that this is a boogeyman law.
I don’t understand the threat to revenue streams. From gun manufacturers? Would anybody who is allowed to purchase a gun bother with a 3D printed one other than for the novelty of it?
My biggest gripe is that I feel that politicians usually don’t get involved in creating laws until way late. Think laws around the regulation of AI or cloning or genetically modifying humans. Is there a credible threat related to printed weaponry? I seriously doubt it.
I saw something similar a few weeks ago on the national news to allow local police to shoot drones around regulated airspaces. In this case it’s a football game. The stadium security said that a drone flew in and distributed pamphlets but could have easily carried in a bomb. Again, this is a theoretical threat, but they’re more likely concerned about illegal filming of a sporting event.
I don’t understand the threat to revenue streams. From gun manufacturers
It doesn’t have to be from gun manufacturers. Any manufacturer can go to the politician they own and say “People are making open source versions of our highest profit margin widget, find a way to make it stop.” Then politician says, “Well, New Yorkers want more gun laws, we can abuse that…”
but could have easily carried in a bomb. Again, this is a theoretical threat
Heard a story of a British officer giving an American secret service officer the rundown of Westminster Palace in anticipation of an American president visiting. They asked why there weren’t any screens at the viewing gallery (or maybe about why there were??? One of the two) and the British officer cited an incident where Tony Blair had a pink powder thrown on him during PMQs. The American asked how they dealt with him, to which he got the reply “Oh we just arrested him after” The American was shocked. “What!? We would have shot him, that could have been anthrax for all that you know”
3d printed guns are an excellent boogey man for manufacturers of not-gun things that 3d printers can make much better than guns.
Holy shit, it would be so funny if this started an 80% 3D printer market.
No need. You can buy ALL of the parts off the shelf for a 3D printer and assemble it yourself. None are regulated (Aluminum rails, motors, arduino controllers, LCD panels, Power supplies, heating elements, thermistors, wiring). Strictly speaking there’s nothing about a non-resin 3d Printer you can’t procure and build yourself. And you can even 3d Print the housings to make it look nice once you’ve assembled it. Oh… and the designs and parts are largely open source.
In the future, only outlaws will have 3D printers…
Shhhh dont tell new york that anybody can by a lathe or a mill. Or forbid A CNC
Requiring a backround check for a 3d printer is idiotic at best. Whats next a flat bastard file? You could use it to form metal to make weapons! Not to deburr or make somthing harmless.
THINK OF THE CHILDREN
Will they require a background check for CNC machines and lathes as well?
They’re eventually just going to demand you’re under AI monitored video surveillance at all times, even while bathing.
Kinky
Oh yes, AI Daddy, surveil me harder!
On a positive note, you’ll be able to buy different subscriptions, so it’s not a complete loss for you. The medical subscription for the probe, which will notify you if it spots any polyps or rectal cancer. Or a “recreational” subscription, where you can engage the vibrating bit that’s near to your prostate.
Oh the joy when you get a notification on your phone saying “what did we find in your rectum? Pay 50USD to find out” and it’s a piece of corn.
Routers and lathes, both CNC and manual … and calipers! The name sounds like something to do with bullets and they look like tiny machine guns.
Pretty soon they would have to ban backyard foundries, aluminum cans, molding sand, metal files, and drill bits!
Why them flat bastards!
(A flatbastard is a common file type)
This isn’t even low hanging fruit. This is fruit that’s been on the ground rotting for a few months that no one is going to pick up and eat anyway. Let’s throw ineffective solutions at the problem and when they fail go, “weeeeell, since you can buy a 3d printer and a gun online, let’s just do background checks for internet access”
“sir were going to need to do a background check, so you can buy this book that has the word “GUN" in it."
There are more deadlier things that are way less expensive I can buy at the local tracker supply with not even a second thought from the cashier. Let’s just limit the public from scary things like “3D printers”.
There fighting Human ingenuity. And can’t win
That was sort of my point. I’m going to go out on a limb and say without any research that bears kill more people every year than 3D printers.
“We’ve done absolutely nothing, and nothing has changed, guess school shootings are the new norm, get used to it”
deleted by creator
Guns are not the problem people are the problem. People do stupid shit and hurt others. Its all mental heath related but no politicians want to touch mental heath with a 10 foot pole every mass shooting has been from somebody mentally unwell. Guns are like cars, when used correctly they help the people using it and people around them protecting against criminals that illegally got guns and other illegal acts. Also if you don’t believe me on that look at south side of new York and Chicago Illinois. They both have large death counts do to gun violents. But the crazy part is guns have heavily restrictions especially in Illinois. But the criminals still get illegal firearms. And just like a car if used incorrectly can kill and hurt people.
Its all mental heath related but no politicians want to touch mental heath with a 10 foot pole
That’s because the underlying causes of the poor mental health are things like inequality, consumerism, and car dependency (not just the burdensome cost, frustration of wasting time in traffic, and poor health from lack of exercise, but also the direct harm to mental health from replacing third places with non-places). Since pretty much all the politicians (of either party) are full steam ahead on the crony-capitalism train, of course they have no interest in solving any of those.
Do I need a background check to buy a CNC? Or a lathe?
I mean, kind of, yes. CNCs have been one of the big items for export controls. Especially if they can be used to build weapons, parts for nuclear subs, etc.
Generally speaking, lathes and milling machines must be licensed for export if their accuracy exceeds six microns. Grinding machines are controlled at four microns. The Wassenaar Arrangement controls all machine tools capable of simultaneous, five-axis motion, regardless of machining accuracy.
Besides not needing a license for export controlled items within the country, you don’t need a 6 micron precision lathe
Until you want to replicate your dick
Oh wow, TIL! I guess I’m not surprised, consumer GPS is kneecapped at a lower accuracy for similar reasons
It used to be. It was called selective availability, where the DoD could dial up/down the accuracy for commercial receivers. However, it was discontinued in 2000.
In the US you don’t need a license to purchase a CNC. Even items with export restrictions like night vision goggles (Under ITAR) can be bought by anyone and shipped to your door. The export controls would only come into effect upon you exporting them.
six microns
Given that human chromosomes are on the order of 5 to 10 microns, I am thinking this export regulation doesn’t apply to the hobby market. This is “use the machine in a clean room” level precision.
@FearTheCron @YourAvgDuckHead According to encyclopedia Britannica, I’d say a fairly reliable source, your out by a factor of 100. https://www.britannica.com/science/chromosome
A human blood cell is approx 10 micron long, according to this… https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2998922/
Apologies for the pedantry, I couldn’t help it.Hehe, I just grabbed the number off wolfram alpha’s size comparison. Wouldn’t surprise me if they are wrong, not sure where they scrape the data from. Anyway, my point stands, six microns is still stupidly small. Some dust or hair on the cutting edge and your precision is now out the window.
Just export controls though?
No not at all
Not yet at the rate these clown lawmakers are going.
I personally have a 3d printed gun that I’ve put a few hundred rounds though and is still holding up just fine 3d printing is plenty strong enough
Way to tell on yourself.
In general, most people can legally build their own firearms in the US. “Ghost” guns aren’t illegal unless you’re selling them or giving them away.
It isn’t a crime unless you’re a prohibited possessor, they’ll be alright.
Oh really? Do you mind telling us how the barrel was 3D printed?
deleted by creator
So it’s almost like the guns are the issue 😩 I can’t believe this
Anything to regulate and restrict the people/end users but not address any real problems in society.
Go after the gun companies, gun lobbies, NRA? No, never. Address housing, income, and educational inequality? That sounds complicated, tough, and expensive.
This has similar vibes to shaming/regulating people for using too much water in their showers and for washing their cars, but when a multi-billion dollar oil company spills millions of gallons of crude into the sea causing years of environmental damage due to negligence, fine them a few million dollars and tell them they’ve been very naughty…
So tired of politicians being in the pocket of Capitalist scumbags.
You’d be surprised what a hoffman lower or FGC9_2.0 can take.
Is this a real problem? How many crimes are being committed with 3D printed guns?
No, but often gun control is an “if it stops even one” type of thing. Most of it is predicated on mass shootings which are .001% of gun violence in an attempt to ban the gun that kills <500 out of 60,000 people a year.
Owning a ghost gun is a crime, right?
Nearly 500 were recovered last year. https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/public-safety/2023/09/20/nypd-unit-combatting-the-growing-problem-of-ghost-guns
From the picture in that article, those guns would blow up in the shooter’s hand.
What a shame that would be
Owning a ghost gun is a crime, right?
(Ignoring the fact that “ghost gun” is a meaningless and intentionally emotionally charged term)
In New York, yes. In the vast majority of the US, no. It’s illegal to file the serial number off an existing firearm, but 100% legal in most states to manufacture your own unserialized firearms for personal use. Just cannot be sold/transferred.
I’d note the article you linked says nothing about how many of those are actually 3D printed, it is infinitely easier to deface the serial number on an existing firearm than it is to 3D print one.
Ignoring the fact that “ghost gun” is a meaningless and intentionally emotionally charged term
A ghost gun is what Emporio used to escape from Pucci in JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure: Stone Ocean
It’s a rounding error… basically just politicians virtue signalling that they’re doing something.
I’m reminded of Leland Yee. California politician who was in favor of gun control all while doing gun running stuff himself. Guess he felt gun control was good for business.
Fast and furious…ATF gun running to the cartels…
I can kind of see the logic.
Like book piracy was never a huge thing because you’d need a hell of a set up to make a book from scratch. Music piracy however…
I’m sure a decently skilled craftsman could make a decent firearm with a short trip to Home Depot, but the average Joe can’t make that happen too easily. With a 3D printer, you could have a gun with next to zero skill. Like a decently motivated person is going to find a gun anyway, but this maybe addresses the less motivated people/crimes of passion, etc.
That being said, if these are the same people advocating for a waiting period, they obviously don’t know how long 3D printing a gun takes.
Edit: for those downvoting, I’m not saying this is a good idea. I think the same result could be had by going after whoever is hosting the design files. Like at least keep them off thingiverse and make them slightly hard to find.
Book piracy was huge I don’t know what you’re talking about. You could get professionally printed books or you could always just photocopy them.
Ebook piracy is a thing. Often done by the same professor who wrote the textbook.
I mean before ebooks we’re a thing. Like before music piracy was a thing.
Gotta stop those guns made from kids. (Per the first image caption in the article).
A ghost gun is displayed before the start of an event about gun violence in the Rose Garden of the White House April 11, 2022 in Washington, DC. Biden announced a new firearm regulation aimed at reining in ghost guns, untraceable, unregulated weapons made from kids. Biden also announced Steve Dettelbach as his nominee to lead the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
unregulated weapons made from kids
By god I hope they mean “for” kids or “by” kids. If people are making guns from kids, we really have a problem.
“Three-dimensionally printed firearms, a type of untraceable ghost gun, can be built by anyone using a $150 three-dimensional printer,” Rajkumar wrote in a memorandum explaining the bill. “This bill will require a background check so that three-dimensional printed firearms do not get in the wrong hands.”
… No way an ender 3 is going to produce something that doesn’t blow up in your hand.
so. i suggest people get that 150 dollar lol-printer. Should take care of itself.
If you think people aren’t printing firearms with an Ender 3, you are a fool.
an Ender 3’s print quality is too low to reliably handle any of the critical components, even for one or two uses. something like the defcad AR lower receiver (which is for some odd reason designated as “the firearm” under ATF regulations…) can absolutely be printed, but not reliably by an ender 3- at least not a stock ender 3. (the defcad team was using resin printers for the dimensional accuracy.)
in any case, you can go to any big box hardware store, drop around 30 bucks in plumbing parts and some quality time with a dremel will produce a fully automatic firearm. should we now regulate plumbing hardware?
Someone assassinated the former Japanese PM with a block of wood, two small pieces of pipe, and some simple electronics, and that was extremely advanced for an amateur hand crafted firearm
Spend enough time in the sticks as a teenager and I guarantee a pipe shotgun will basically materialize out of thin air at some point
Not sure how to tell you this, but however amusing… you are wrong. An Ender 3 in the hands of even a moderately experienced 3D hobbyist can absolutely produce a functional firearm.
not really. Well let me put it this way. The firearms that are entirely 3d printed are basically one-shot weapons.
the firearms that are single-printed components (or maybe more,) aren’t printing components that are part of the firing mechanism. for example, the DefCad team, they’re printing lower receiver for an AR. All the lower receiver does is holds the magazine in place for feeding into the chamber. For some technically obscure reason, it’s the part that is defined as “the” firearm for the purposes of registration.
the reason most ghost guns aren’t actually being printed is because there’s easier ways to get better firearms. Like driving to a state that allows the gunshow loophole and buying them cheap and flipping them in NY or whatever. printed ghost guns are… relatively uncommon, overall.
yes it can
You don’t print the explody bits; you have to purchase things like the barrel and the trigger assembly.
However, I know an engineer at Sig Sauer who printed his own gun and he’s never fired it while holding it…so, still prone to eventual catastrophic failure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
so, still prone to eventual catastrophic failure ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Everything will fail eventually, the question is how long it will take and more importantly if the failure can be predicted.
At that point though, you may as well start regulating the purchase of lumber, since it sounds like you could just as easily make the printed components in a basic workshop as with a 3d printer
I suppose technically you could but it would be a hell of a lot of work and you’d need detailed drawings.
The 3d model already has all of the geometry and hole locations required from the manufacturer.
If you know your printer well, all you do is download the model, slice it and press play.
If you have the 3d model, you already have the drawings. Quite literally. Just need to print off some views with measurements, if you want it on paper, otherwise, use the CAD model and get measurements as needed.
At that point, it’s just down to having the tools, skills, and material. Someone with good skills, tools, and material could make the equivalent parts faster and of better quality than a bed-slinger. Someone without the skills… well, they’ll probably have time to build the skills in the process.
Now, when it comes to materials, I think that there’s definite risk there. Wood often exhibits worse shear strength along its grain than well-tuned printers do along layers (a good example of this weakness can be seen in the rear totes of old Stanley-Bailey bench planes - it is a minority of them that have not sheared where the handle meets the mounting section). So, that has to be taken into account in laying out the part in the raw material.
