This opens some uncomfortable doors for people who have a severe negative and abusive view towards drug addicts.
I know multiple doctors involved in the panels that make these decisions and the people that have negative and abusive views towards drug addicts don’t really get input into this process.
If you can find a panel of doctors stack full of fucking assholes who want addicted people to die. That’s a different story, but I would argue the people I know involved in this processing. Canada albeit just a few of them are genuinely good people who don’t judge you for the issues you’re going through and just want you to be helped and at peace.
Yeah the risk with panels: look at the SCJ right now. Its supposed to be an ethics committee but almost all of them got in there doesn’t have a shred of ethics.
So if you’re relying on a panel of voted doctors It’s just a bribe away from complete negligence and apathy to human life over a slight inconvenience and $$.
It’s not exactly prime objective material.
I’d be worried that this will be used as a screen to kill “undesirables” without scrutiny.
It does say it requires counseling before it is done, so you would have to fake that part.
Not hard for medical professionals to put blanket symptoms on mental illnesses. Just look at history. The mentally unwell haven’t been treated kindly by pretty much anyone throughout history. All this positive talk about it is modern as in the last 30 years. Before that it was all taboo
No you need bad counselors. And not explicitly evil ones even. Just ones who think they’d want to die if their life was pretty bad. I see people say they’d kill themselves if they were deaf, if they were blind, if they were in need of a wheelchair, etc, but disabled people do live happy and complete lives, often to the astonishment of therapists.
Drug addicts are capable of recovering and having better lives. That’s the fundamental difference between them and the terminally ill. Mentally ill people can find their miracle treatment or a regimen that works or something.
These two groups are easily manipulated when at their worsts and counselors are frankly terrible at seeing the difference between a really bad period of life and a life that can’t improve. The last thing a mentally ill person at rock bottom needs is a medical professional to agree death is an option
Not all drug addicts are capable of recovering. Most are, but not everyone. To assert such a claim evinces a fundamental ignorance of drug addiction.
And who are we to say which is which with such absolute certainty that we will bear the weight of killing them? Not permitting them to die without our help, but preparing the mechanism of death, providing, and/or administering it. With cancer it’s easy to know when there’s no hope left, that another try won’t help. There is no hospice of hopelessness for drug addiction, no few months to live of increasing agony, no immanence. So I say we shouldn’t bear this weight. If they want to die let it be by their own hand with ours clean. Our hands should only be dirtied like this where those wishing to die are too sick to do it themselves meet the strictest criteria.
First of all, YOU aren’t bearing any “weight”, nor would you be making any decision. Qualified medical professionals would be. Second, to say there’s no hopelessness for some people in drug addiction shows a fundamental ignorance of that condition— some people simply are incapable of recovering from it. Most are, but not everyone.
Finally, you’re making a decision for a lot of people which doesn’t affect you at all based on your own emotions, biases, and ignorance of a condition to prolong a person’s suffering which is seemingly arbitrary. It hardly seems reasonable.
Most of the homeless I see are tweaking.
It seems like they’re solving the housing crisis in the most dystopian way possiblePlenty of ways it could be even more dystopian. Turn them into Soylent Poutine or something, then it’s on another level.
Turning them into food when there’s nothing left to eat seems a little better than killing them off to avoid losing a bit of money
It’s already happening, and the eugenics apologists have been falling all over themselves to say “OH UHHH THOSE WERE JUST DOZENS OF ISOLATED INCIDENTS PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE FASCISTS BEHIND THE CURTAIN”
Lord have mercy. Canada has lost their minds.
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“Canada has just announced that people claiming that Canada has ‘lost their minds’ are now eligible for mandatory assisted suicide.”
“Canada announces technology that allows anybody, anywhere in the world to undergo mandatory medically assisted ‘suicide’ without consenting or being informed beforehand said operation”
Long time ago, so I heard but it seems they are still “sinking” deeper.
I honestly think this would not be a bad way to go once I retire. Just develope a fentanyl addiction and move to Canada for a medically assisted OD. A lot better than dealing with the coming water wars and dying like an animal while desperately fighting for survival.
If you’ve already made it to fentanyl just take two of them. No need to be buried in Canada.
Nah, I’d have my worm nutrients sent back to family in the US, or be cremated.
Also, what’s with the hostility?
This just sounds like a convenient way to get rid of homeless people
2024: “Canada has approved medically assisted death for people who are late on their rent”
2025: “Canada has approved medically assisted death for unhoused persons”
2026: “Canada has approved medically assisted death forsocial parasitesthe disabled”
2027: “Canada has approved medically assisted death for adults and children with autism”
2028: “Canada has approved medically assisted death for those suffering from the effects of institutionalized racism”
2029: “Canada has approved medically assisted death for any First Nations, black, non-land-owning, or poor people who aren’t already dead yet, and it’s optional through 2030”Yeah I support the right to a comfortable death, but there’s a hard line here of only for people who will die in the near future with or without intervention of a disease they’re suffering from a sufficiently advanced case of. And it needs strict controls including oversight by disabled people.
I’ve watched a person slowly and painfully waste away to a disease. But I’ve also seen people say my life isn’t worth living.
Choices still matter in drug addiction and it shouldn’t receive the final mercy we may choose to offer to the terminally ill who are unable to even end their own life. If they want to die then they should have to do it themselves without help.
Now you’re making yourself the arbiter of whose suffering is deserving of relief. Who are you to be the judge?
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Personal insults and accusations without evidence are not an answer to my question, but an evasion.
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It’s not a complete argument if you’re going to make accusations without evidence. And hurling insults and accusations instead of answering my question is clearly an evasion.
Nobody is being the judge, the individuals condition is what is preventing them from commiting suicide. And we have no moral obligation to carry out any action someone else wants, including killing them.
You are judging these individuals here, based on your morals. This isn’t about your morals, nor is anyone claiming that you are obligated to do anything. If someone else wishes to apply for this program due to their irremediable physical and/or psychological suffering, who are you to say they’re undeserving of the help, especially when it has nothing to do with you?
“Judging these individuals here”
Are you illiterate? Would you like to prove this statement to me?
“Nobody is claiming that you are obligated”
One is not obligated, this had nothing to do with me specifically.
“Who are you to say that they’re undeserving of that help”
Because there is no obligation to enable an action based on a desire. This is simply you (and others who make this argument) carving out a moral imperative simply because it justifies something you already want (post-hoc justification).
Mixing insults with the straw man argument that this has anything to do with morality is a fallacious argument on its face. And feigning ignorance of the meaning of your own words while asserting an intellectual argument is peak mental gymnastics. And I’m not trying to justify anything— it’s you who is trying to justify denying people medically-approved care due to your stated morality and a refusal of some “obligation” that doesn’t actually exist.
Nobody but you is claiming any “obligation” to anything. This is matter between an individual and their medical providers, not one which involves you in any way. So, once again who are you to judge these people as undeserving of the state’s assistance if their medical providers approve them for it?
The difference is that drug addiction can be cured. Maybe we should try rehab first. If they’re not clean or OD’ed after x number of years ok maybe then. But hell let’s try first.
Drug addiction cannot be cured. For many, it can be successfully treated, but it’s a chronic condition which requires a lifetime of treatment. Results vary widely, as does quality of life for those with addiction.
And nobody is saying attempts to treat a person’s addiction shouldn’t be tried first.
I still don’t think that answers the question:
Why should anyone other than yourself be the arbiter of if your life should continue?
Because people under the influence of drugs don’t always make choices that they won’t regret when they’re sober. I have personally witnessed people that wanted to die while fucked up on legally obtained prescription drugs used as directed because the side effects are just that bad. They don’t feel that way once they’re off that shit.
No one has suggested you would just execute a person on sight while they are under the influence.
In these situations there are interviews, evaluations and waiting periods to ensure the person is ‘of sound mind’ before proceeding.
So with that cleared up, I’ll repeat my question.
Why should you get to be the arbiter of if someone else is allowed to die?
They are already offering it to people with disabilities
I should have guessed. And this thread is riddled with apologists slavering over it.
Maybe assisted becomes recommended, and recommended becomes prescribed?
I’d prefer if it was approved for everybody. Don’t like living, and still feel that way after a mandatory counseling course you should be allowed to choose to end your life in a humane and clean way.
‘Mandatory counselling course’ sounds like not trying very hard just to rush to the next step. Something hitler would say if he was looking to save on gas.
That is too dangerous. If it sounds like I’m asking people who want to die to endure more suffering in order to ensure eugenics becomes relegated to the trash heap of history, it’s because I am. I would rather let cancer patients wither away under painkillers than allow the state to use the forces of institutional bigotry to cleanse its undesirables, let alone overt extermination. In the United States, we would look back 20 years from now asking questions about why black people make up 75% of the medical suicides in Mississippi—or gypsies in the UK, or First Nations in Canada, or gays anywhere, or Jews everywhere—and I absolutely believe that no benefit will ever outweigh that, not ever, not even to heat death.
It’s as simple as forbidding medical experts from recommending the procedure. Patients can request it on their own accord.
People are forbinned from trading stocks with insider knowledge, too. Tell me exactly what constitutes a recommendation, and I can find you a way to completely flout the rule while obeying the letter of it. I’ll always be able to, you can’t win that arms race.
What exactly is the motivation to kill people by assisted suicide from the individual doctor? People can do illegal things, you’re right. What is the point of any law with your mentality?
That’s a sophistical argument, I think I’ve made it abundantly clear that the point is potential for abuse, especially passed down from on high such as in the Welles Fargo scandal.
Remember when death panels were a crazy right wing talking point? Thanks Canada.
Death panels still aren’t a thing you dingus. No bodies of people deciding whether or not you should live or die, just people gaining the option to request it.
And those bodies totally won’t start gently suggesting this option. It totally hasn’t already happened…
What evidence do you have for this?
Like when? The big one people were up in arms about was the veteran who was advised to look into it by a Veteran Affairs employee. Veteran Affairs has absolutely no say in whether someone can or should seek MAID, and that employee was acting alone. Pretty sure they got shit canned for it too.
They are in the US. They’re called insurance companies.
This is technically the case everywhere.
Healthcare is one of those things that will consume all available resources, and we can’t do that.
Consider someone that requires round the clock, individual care. They are consuming the entire economic output of more than three people to care for someone that will have no more. I know there’s a lot of communists here, but communism doesn’t change that fact.
What if we could keep someone alive for $1M per day? How long should we do it? We shouldn’t, and “death panels” are how that needs to be decided.
You can talk about price gouging, but really high end medical care is akin to magic. It takes very smart people to do it, and something like an MRI requires liquid helium to remain superconducting. That’s just extremely expensive.
Edit: this place is really weird. So many down votes. No argument against it. Very toxic.
While this is technically true. Back in reality land they were found to be automating the process of groundless denials having doctors lie about having examined dozens of cases despite having spent all of 10 seconds in a screen clicking deny all. Our current situation IS death panels and not just for the dying.
Sure. That’s not really a death panel though. That’s the inefficiency of lots of systems. If you make someone jump through enough hoops, they’ll give up. That saves money.
Well EU has pretty good healthcare but noons pays 3x market value of their car for single ambulance.
No one is talking about that. Healthcare has a budget. You have to distribute that budget equitably.
It’s a more generalized, non emergency version of triage.
Some people will die no matter what you do. Don’t waste resources on them. Some people will recover if you do nothing. Don’t waste resources on them.
Some people will recover if you spend resources on them and die if your don’t. Use your resources on them.
There’s always a cost benefit tradeoff.
Aside from you though 🫠
Healthcare is one of those things that will consume all available resources, and we can’t do that.
Consider someone that requires round the clock, individual care. They are consuming the entire economic output of more than three people to care for someone that will have no more.
I just pointed that it doesn’t consume so much resources in EU as in US. So it can afford better care for longer period of time. And by that i mean tenfold in some cases.
And guess what, insurance companies paying for that make huge profits yearly as well.
I’m just pointing to system that can afford to keep patients alive without killing them because they or others can’t afford to pay for them while maintaining high quality care.
Off topic
Edit: this place is really weird. So many down votes. No argument against it. Very toxic.
I didn’t down vote you if that matters 😉
No bodies of people deciding whether or not you should live or die, just people gaining the option to request it.
“There’s no such thing as grooming, just vulnerable people having the option to have sex with people who have power over them”
—You, if you aren’t a hypocrite
One involves someone who hasn’t fully developed their brain, being taken advantage of. The other involves grown people who are most likely not going to make the decision lightly, and have years of proof they’ll keep suffering. I’d also imagine it’s not some instant suicide booth like Futurama, there’s not gonna be a “Death same night, guaranteed” run of clinics.
So you don’t believe that medical conditions affect your brain?
Aging alone effects it, elderly people are arguably less mentally capable than teenagers. So if teenagers cannot consent to sex based on mental capability, then how are lower capability elderly supposed to be able to consent to death?
I literally never said that…
Those are 2 very very very different ideas you’re trying to compare, and feels like poor logic.
Teenagers can absolutely consent to sex, as sex and grooming are very different things. 2 teenagers having sex, normal. Someone much older than a teenager grooming them mentally for years to eventually have sex, not normal.
Lastly, elderly people’s mental faculties declining that hard isn’t guaranteed. Plenty of old people stay mentally sharp and capable of making decisions. Teenagers, though, 100% will have an under-developed brain until ~25, not to mention how little of life experience they’ll likely have.
found the guy with truly hilarious ideas about what informed consent means
Are you really that naïve? Don’t display your ignorance.
Not really, maybe the timeline, but moving from drug addicts to the disabled is a well worn path. It happened with sterilization
You’re comparing something that was forced upon people to something that is a choice and which a person must qualify for. It’s comparing apples and oranges.
People say the same thing up here. Most people see it as a cynical form of population control.
“Addicted to drugs? Sounds like you want to die. Here, we’ll help.”
WCGW?
we should start offering this in us cities
For the police? Agreed.
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It is a bit unfair that only drug addicts get this. Assisted suicide should be available for the general population.
Just to make extra sure it isn’t eugenics, have everyone asking for assisted suicide, provide proof of having reproduced, or get enrolled into forced reproduction first… /s
Though only after a consultation with a philosopher
Yes definitely
The article says that the mentally ill also get this option.
That’s good. I’ve been watching this bill closely ever since they said they’d add it for mentally ill patients in early 2023.
Aha ok. Thank you for clarifying 🙌
Oh that’s really bad. That’s even less capable of being terminal
“Terminal” isn’t the only standard. “A lifetime of irremediable physical and/or psychological suffering” is another.
Have any of their politicians taken them up on the offer?
Getting addicted to drugs isn’t exactly an insurmountable barrier
It is for some
it doesnt have to be if there was resources
sounds like theyre just not sugar coating what they want ppl dealt a shitty hand to do
That not how it works. Addiction is simply not something some people can overcome. It’s a condition that affects everyone differently, and, for some, it doesn’t matter how many resources you throw at it. It’s not a condition one can reason or rationalize one’s way through. For some, recovery itself presents irremediable psychological suffering from which they seek a permanent release.
You seem to be asserting that the state wants addicts to kill themselves, but there’s no evidence for this, as anyone seeking this remedy would have to apply for it and go through multiple steps of evaluation before being permitted. Such a high bar of entry - plus all of the treatment options available - are evidence that it’s the option of last resort for the most extreme cases and not for just anyone.
“Kill em all”. Canadian here. Disabled folks like myself have been taking this route for a while now simply because they can’t afford to live any longer. That’s pretty fucked. Canada doesn’t want anything to do with us or the “junkies”. They’d rather we die.
Like, truly, where was legality ever an issue if you were really considering suicide? Maybe that’s just my lense
Bingo. The health administrator just wants to go “hey I don’t want to give this person naxolone but I also don’t want to face any consequences.”
The “legality” side of committing suicide in a drug addicts case is a red herring. It’s incredibly easy to kill yourself on fentanyl even accidentally. with or without legality.
Considering that just two weeks ago the canadian government for cheering for actual SS Nazis, that should be a surprise for no one.
This is only okay if the client asks for it under lucid understanding. And I support it. “Pushing” this from any government agent should be illegal. I will take this route when I reach a certain quality of life threshold.
It hasn’t been pushed on anyone from a Healthcare provider(the only people legally allowed to recommend and administer)
All the depressed Marijuana users: Welp… I guess its time to get outta here. Bye world.
But let me smoke one more joint real quick.
(Get stoned, forget you were going to commit suicide, get depressed because you’re not dead yet, decide to commit suicide)
But let me smoke one more joint real quick.
This feels like it crosses a line.
I just don’t know how I feel about it. They do go through an assessment before they’re allowed to end their life this way. Maybe if you really want to die because your life is just generally unbearable, you should be allowed to? I get that there are methods to beat addiction, but they don’t always work. If you just can’t stop smoking meth and you just can’t live that way anymore, maybe let that person die like they want to? I honestly don’t know if those are yes answers for me.
I think you should be allowed to, and I’ve been vocally pro right to die for a long time, but I think this is bad. Medically assisted suicide isn’t meant to be done like this because doctors are better at it, but because they’re the ones with access to lethal drugs whom the terminally ill who are unable to end their life by their own hand will interact with that have the least to gain from their death.
Medically assisted suicide needs to emphasize assisted over suicide. Drug addicts have the capacity to obtain and administer a lethal dose of a drug. I might be ok with them being allowed a safe place where a DNR order that they set up for that experience will be respected so they can OD.
But the general rule in medically assisted suicide is the patient should have to prove that they are terminally ill with no hope of recovering and a sufficiently painful decline and then once approved they should have to do every part of the act that they are physically capable of. Furthermore the final “go” signal should require the patient to explicitly trigger. The physician should be as hands off as possible.
It needs to be treated with this weight. It needs to require a person dying of cancer to fight for it. Otherwise able people might begin dispensing “mercy” where it is less than enthusiastically wanted.
Why should that be the line? Why should a patient have to be terminally ill in order to have the right to die? Why should irremediable suffering not also be considered as a standard?
I think that is the standard if I’m not mistaken. I haven’t looked too closely though, I could be wrong.
The article states “irremediable physical and/or psychological suffering” as another standard that’s being used for consideration here, not just whether a person’s condition is terminal.
It’s not the right to die, it’s the right to assistance in it. I believe we all have the right to kill ourselves. Terminality is associated with a cascading of symptoms and suffering. It’s not “you can’t be helped” but “your pain is going to be increasingly unbearable and constant and likely you will begin losing certain faculties as you wait to die.” It’s also associated with the need for physician assistance to suicide. I can go out, buy a bunch of pills, get a weapon, find a bridge, whatever. A terminally ill patient probably can’t. Things like loading a needle of too much opioid is going to likely be difficult by the time you’re declared terminal. And terminal comes with the understanding that it’s too late for a miracle cure, even if it gets invented tomorrow it’s highly unlikely to get to you in time. Irremediable doesn’t come with that security. And that may sound ridiculous but miracle cures have happened, notably with antibiotics.
lol, there’s no such thing as “miracles” and antibiotics don’t cure addiction— nothing does. It’s a lifelong condition that not everyone has success with. Why should you get to decide who gets relief from irremediable physical and/or psychological suffering rather than trained physicians and psychologists? You just assume that, for someone in that position, it would just be easy for them to commit suicide themselves, but you’ve clearly never been suicidal. It’s never easy. And clearly it’s difficult enough that people want state assistance to do it safely and humanely.
Yes, it does. People addicted to drugs have mental issues: addiction. That will warp their judgement. Medically-assisted dying is something that needs to be legal. But the doctors involved need to be sure that the dying properly consents and that is going to be MUCH harder when they have to judge it through a lens of addition.
To me this reads just shy of saying medically assisted dying is now legal for people with mental health issues. Which would 100% be compared to what the Nazis did to the mentally and physically disabled.
The Nazis didn’t give those (or many people) a choice; it was forced upon them. This isn’t comparable at all.
If your choice is no treatment vs suicide, that’s not really a choice, either.
Also you can’t really give someone a choice in life vs death when their mental state is unstable.
Treatment is a choice.
Ideally. But if that’s the case, why limit it to people with drug addictions? Why limit it to the vulnerable and mentally impaired? Drug addicts aren’t usually terminal patients. What if this was applied but only to overweight people? Or smokers? Or the poor?
You’re free to ponder those questions, but what California and Canada os doing has nothing to do with the Nazis.
That’s what cohersion is for.
The Nazis also gave the Jews a chance leave Germany at first.
What evidence do you have of coercion or of any addicts being driven out of/told to leave Cali or Canada?
In my opinion, those addicted to drugs so much as to need help commiting suicide are not in a clear enough mental state to make such a decision.
That’s why it is required for them to have multiple interviews with medical professionals before they qualify for state assistance.
Just roll out the suicide booths already
Might as well, eh?
This is Burgsys type shit TNO can’t make this up
What? Why not legalize their forced detox and give them another chance at life? Guess make them sleep is easier at budget or something ??
That sounds fucked-up, no? Is it an uncureable condition?
Yeah, it’s fucked up. It’s being presented under the guise of equality too lol
Addiction isn’t a condition which can, generally speaking, be cured. It’s a chronic condition and is often genetic. While many choose a lifetime of treatment, it’s a constant struggle, and the quality of life varies widely.
Fuck Canada
