I’m Canadian. And I’m already sorry for asking an ignorant question.
I know you have to pay for hospital visits in the states. I know lower economic status can come with lower access to birth control and sex education. But then, how do they afford to give birth? Do people ever avoid hospital visits because they don’t feel like they can’t afford it?
Do hospitals put people on a payment plan? Is it possible to give birth and not pay if you don’t have the means? How does it work in the states?
How does it all work?
Again. Canadian. And sorry.
Giving birth is an inexorable* consequence of being pregnant.
… Which itself is an inexorable* consequence of living in a state that decries and represses reproductive freedom.
Which is what the rest of (in the US) will all have to face down in the next 10 years.
Fun, right?
*s inexorable, as in what the GOP demands any more go forth and multiply, OR ELSE!
Was poor, had a baby at 20. $6,000 hospital bill we paid in monthly installments of like $100
Paid off my kid being born when she was like 6 or 7 lol. Kind of like a car
My first kid was born at 27 weeks, and would have ended up costing us 3mill if they weren’t on Medicaid due to being born so early. My second kid we were living in Canada (due to my job) and basically only cost us to park at the hospital.
Growing up in the US and living in Canada for a while, I genuinely don’t understand why Universal Healthcare isn’t fought for more. I know it’s talked about but holy fuck, it’s so much better in Canada.
To comment on OP’s actual question, I have no idea how people do it.
And some fucks in Alberta want the US system because “I never get sick! My taxes are paying for someone else to be sick!”
Some people give birth in their own homes like in medival times. I know people who have done it. In my opinion people shouldn’t be having kids if society is so broken you have to do stuff like this but to each their own.
There’s nothing wrong with it. Thats what midwives are for.
Until it goes wrong.
We opted to have our second at home in a birthing pool, it was amazing! Mum and baby were monitored way more than when we were in the hospital with our first, and we could just recover and relax in our own home after. No stressing about having to get to the hospital etc.
Hell they’re trying to take our choice in the matter.
American hospitals cannot legally refuse to treat you even if they know you can’t pay/don’t have insurance. So worst case scenario is you go and have whatever done and they bill you and you don’t pay and it’s a write off for the hospital.
Often times, if you can’t pay they will offer a reduced amount to at least get something out of you if they know they won’t get anything otherwise.
Fucking crooks
Edit: who the fuck is downvoting me? USA hosptials owners?
People are thinking you mean the poor people, not the hospitals.
I’m just laughing at the absurdity of someone calling poor people who can’t afford their medical bills “fucking crooks” but that actually is a position I wouldn’t surprised to see these days.
Unfortunately, yeah, it’s very common in the south, so I’m used to seeing it :(
Even in the more ‘blue’ cities down here, it’s usually safer to assume that whoever you’re talking to is a republican piece of shit, or else has holdover ideas (like ‘the poor don’t deserve handouts’) from being raised that way.
Not just these days. See Reagan and his lies about ‘welfare queens’ living on lobster and buying Cadillacs off of government money.
It’s very expensive to be poor.
They send the infant to debtors prison to begin working off the $70,000 hospital bill. They don’t have to pay the infant minimum wage though, and they charge them for room and board and meals, so by the time they’re 18 they are actually indebted to the hospital an average of 1.4 million dollars, which they will then begin working off as adults earning minimum wage.
I man you joke, but don’t give them any ideas.
Arkansas has upvoted your comment and taken notes.
Ohio awaits program completion and results to “improve” on it.
I know you’re joking, but Im pretty sure that there was a supreme court case that made debtors prison a thing of the past.
deleted by creator
Found it, it was 1983, much more recent than I remembered. https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdal/page/file/918356/download
The feds themselves call it a civil rights violation, they have a good chance at a lawsuit. IMO, the judges who sign the arrest warrants need to be debarred or taken out of office or whatever happens to judges.
Do people ever avoid hospital visits
At least in my experience, we’ll generally be able to go to the hospital
Do hospitals put people on a payment plan
Generally, I’ve just seen the debt transferred to a debt collection agency afterwards, since there’s no money for them to take. They’ll harass you, and it affects your credit score, but they can’t send you to jail
Credit score? Is it like the Chinese social credit system?
At this point, pretty much
yes, but in the classically American fashion we only care about money so much only the money stuff even goes into calculating it
Well yeah, because it’s only used when talking about loaning money…
Not really. It just keeps track of how often you miss your credit card payments so creditors will know how high of a risk you are to lend money to. If affects if you can get loans and what interest rates you can get on loans. But if you just pay your loans/credit card bills, you’ll be fine.
Yeah, just the American version
It affects where you can rent housing, what houses you can buy, whether you can get a car, etc
I don’t have a credit score, and have never had a problem renting. It’s getting a mortgage that I can’t do without a partner who’s been consistently paying off a credit card for decades.
My credit score wasn’t good enough, so I had to show the last place I rented 6 months of my employers payments to rent
I’ve never missed a payment, nor do I have any debt. I just don’t exist in the system enough to rent
Love how everyone went insane with the social credit score while you got the same shit done to you and no one batted an eye
My favorite part is when one of the three companies that does ours leaked all of our data with relatively no consequences.
https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/refunds/equifax-data-breach-settlement
US credit score won’t get you sent to jail or a re-education camp, at least. At least, not yet.
It will condem you to poverty tho, which may be even worse than jail
It can impact everything in your life, even jobs and housing now. It’s practically the same thing except instead of being forced to live in a camp you’re living on the street.
And if you dare get together with other people that are forced onto the street and make a camp together somewhere isolated, the government tears it down and evicts you and destroys your things. Thank god for our freedom.
I mean it’s not like your credit score immediately gets affected for something like jaywalking though.
I’m not sure that’s entirely the bar we should be aiming for
Well if it’s the free market abusing us it’s okay. That’s just freedom.
It’s not comparable at all. In the US your credit score only goes down if you borrow money and don’t pay it back. If you get a loan and pay it back on time your credit score will be fine.
I’m not super familiar with the Chinese credit system, but I think it’s effected by a lot more. What kind of products you buy, how much you work, posting certain content online, etc.
Yes these systems are not in any way whatsoever comparable to each other except in being reputation rating systems.
“What? A bank wants to know if you defaulted on the last loan you took? What is this?? Totalitarian China???”
It can even impact being hired for jobs. Low credit score? You might be untrustworthy or motivated to steal
Not only American. We in Germany have shit like that and most other European nations have it as well afaik
It exists in most places from what I can tell, but the specific implementation may differ
The technology of loan risk assessment? Yes, it exists worldwide, all banks are doing it. But there is a wide chasm between
“when I show up asking for a loan bank will xray all my previous financial history and craft its offer from that” in Europe (at least my country) and
“credit score is a houshold term, people employ lifehacks to improve it and you’re screwed if it’s bad because half of everything runs on credit”.
There’s also the fact that credit rating agencies in North America have hardly any supervision and are prone to make mistakes because they take correlated data by face value.
I think my credit report still says I work at “DOMINOES” after like 5 years of not being there. It doesn’t effect anything, but I get mild amusement out of it being misspelled on top of that.
The US version is a system that calculates the risk of loaning money vs being paid back. In order to be approved for a loan the credit score is used to evaluate whether or not it is likely to be paid back within the terms of the loan. As a result those with bad credit have trouble getting favorable terms for cars, housing and basically anything that can’t be purchased outright. Does it negatively affect people for things outside of their control and perpetuate cycles of poverty? Absolutely, but it is based in actual fiscal risk to calculate sustainable loan practices.
China on the other hand took the US term of “credit” and abused the everloving shit out of it to punish people that the government dislikes. Did your cousin post a Xi Jinping Winnie the Pooh meme? Well too bad that you were shopping for a house, because your “credit” is no longer high enough to not be homeless. You should have thought of that before you were related to someone who disagreed with the government!
Not being able to demonstrate to a bank that you are financially reliable enough to pay back a loan is unfortunate, but a rational reason for an unfavorable interest rate or denial of a loan. Making people ineligible for even renting an apartment that is within their financial means because the dictator in charge dislikes you is a completely different thing altogether.
As the name hints, a credit score is used to rate the risk of making you a loan. It’s not some essential personal ID. It only comes into play if you are applying for credit and is a set of shared records that financial institutions and private companies use to decide if loaning you money is a good risk or not.
Someone else said it’s used to decide if you can get a car and that’s not accurate. If you need to borrow money to buy a car, your credit history will be checked. It’s the loan, not the car.
Is it crazy that lenders would want to know if you’ve walked away from your bills in the past? Making it sound like dystopian China is a gross exaggeration.
Landlords want to know if you will be able to pay rent and they may ask to know what you earn, what’s in your bank account, and if you have insane debt. It’s not credit per se but they are entering into a financial agreement with you which you could default on, so it’s got many of the same characteristics. Don’t want to give all this information? Don’t. It’s not required by law. Not everyone demands it. Some may choose not to rent to you without it.
It’s similar but only take into account financial and professional information. As I understand it, the Chinese version also covers your daily activities.
Would a hospital ever refuse you care if you have outstanding bills or hospital bills with collections?
It’s illegal in the Emergency Room. Anywhere else they can. Poor people end up relying on Emergency care, ignoring bills, and the hospitals write it off as “charity care,” which helps them justify their non-profit status, when they’re non-profits
The hospital must stabilize you and save your life from immediate danger. They don’t have to make you better or solve the problem.
Depends on the severity of the issue.
For a life threatening emergency, no
For like pain relief, yes
I can answer this: my son was born in 1990. We were extremely poor.
We had midwives help us out as best they could, to the tune of about $3200 at the time. The birth got complicated due to a variety of health factors, and both my son and wife almost died (not because of the midwives). Luckily the midwives had a direct line to Georgetown Hospital, and the cesarean was done there. The total hospital bill was $58,000, or $138k in today’s money, although hospital costs have rose much higher vs inflation, so maybe it would be in the $200k range now. She was in the ICU for a week, hospital for another week, our son for about 3 weeks.
My wife job didn’t have health insurance, because it wasn’t required back then. Because she was gone a week, her job fired her for an unexcused absence. Oddly enough, this made her unemployed and Washington DC had some law (or rule or something) that immediately dropped the hospital bills because of her unemployment. In the end, we had to pay $15k to about two dozen practices who individually sued us, which took 7 years to pay off and a lot of court visits and wage garnishments. It financially ruined us, pretty much. Both suffered a lot afterwards because we just couldn’t afford minimal care. It was hellish. I can’t imagine how much worse it would be today. We got evicted from our apartment, and lived in government housing for six years.
So, yeah. Don’t have a baby in America unless you can guarantee it will be healthy and you have a lot of money. Most of my friends don’t have kids, they simply can’t afford it and look at it like the previous generation looked at concepts like summer homes and yachts. Nice luxuries, but way out of affordabilty.
Wow. That’s horrible. The US health system sounds like a dystopian nightmare.
And yet so many Canadians seem to want to dive head first in to a fully private healthcare system as if anyone could take that financial hit.
meh Cannucks tend to adopt the worst of everything they see
You spelled Canucks wrong and your broad generalization is insulting to millions of people, especially since the majority of us are smarter than that.
Canned ducks?
Yes.
It doesn’t help that many of the governing bodies are deliberately sabotaging it as much as possible in order to push voters into that direction. Doug Ford is one of the most notorious in this respect, but there are plenty of others too
What the actual fuck, and this was in 1990
1990 was around the time of Hillary-care and Romney-care, so the politicians knew that they were going to have to fix it sooner or later by that point.
Hillary’s plan was being developed and debated in '93-94, Romneycare in Massachusetts happened in 2006.
… “So, yeah. Don’t have a baby in America…”
for more on this subject, and in the spirit of looking on the bright side of s bad situation, see /c/childfree and childfree.cc. Includes talk, and memes, about some of the benefits, of not having children, including but not limited to finances. (also advice and directories about related options for medical things, where thise are wanted or needed).
Why didn’t you have taxpayer paid (State) insurance if you were extremely poor and expecting? Is it because of the lost job and timing? If you are poor and have a family then you can spend a day at the welfare office and get public insurance.
Because we made too much (over minimum wage, dual income household). I was making $13k as a sales manager, my wife was making $8k as an assistant manager, and minimum wage was $3.35/hr or just under $7k/year back then. After taxes, we made about $1200/mo, and our rent was $650 for a single bedroom apartment. No car, we took the bus, barely had enough for food and utilities.
But we were considered way too over the “poverty line,” which was I think less than $6k/year then. We had been using birth control but when they say some form of birth control is 99% effective, the DO mean 1% failed. I have no regrets our son was born, because it turned out we couldn’t have kids later when we tried. And then later my wife died when he was 22, so if we had kids later, I would have been a widow with younger kids.
I feel awful he grew up poor with us until he was about 10, though.
Oof, yeah that’s rough. The poverty line is really low. I can relate about wishing you weren’t poor when your kid was a kid, we had the same experience. We would have been able to give him a lot more had he been born a decade later, but he still had a loving home, which is more than a lot of kids get.
I’m really sorry to hear about your wife. I can’t even imagine.
I’m sorry you and your family had to go through that.
I’m Canadian and I gladly pay more taxes than you so that I and my friends get free healthcare when we need it.
When we watched the fights over “Obamacare” we just shook our heads.
That’s the ridiculous thing. Americans would rather pay a few dollars less in taxes than let people have free healthcare. And it ends up costing them far more than they would have paid in taxes.
I’m Canadian and I gladly pay more taxes than you so that I and my friends get free healthcare when we need it.
Here’s the thing. I worked in America for the better part of a decade and I had to submit two tax forms, one to each country. You end up paying the greater of the two and using it to offset the other.
What I know is this: every year, every year, I paid an extra 1% to America. No matter how my (binational) tax guys worked it, my obligation to America was always higher.
The year after I came home I still had to submit taxes (January layoff scares so I moved back) and it was still higher for America despite sitting in a different country (it’s a factor) and using different services. It didn’t matter.
In Canada I pay 1% lower income tax and enjoy healthcare access. While they’ve done away with the regional premiums, I was even okay paying that; as my yearly outlay, proudly at the top bracket, was still less than copays while in America. I would gladly pay the same premium to ensure equal access to dental and optical care for me and especially people who can’t drop (now) c$1000 on some specs or way more on a dental crown.
It’s not that I’m a good guy, but I pay taxes for schools because I don’t want to live around dumb people. I do and will pay taxes so we can take people who aren’t healthy and skilled and contributing income tax and make them so they are. Poverty should be no excuse for not being employable.
Man… That is crazy. I’m so sorry for you guys.
Mine were born at home with a midwife who did sliding scale pricing (charged based on your income). Only available to low risk women who lived close to the hospital though.
If you are quite poor, Medicaid will cover pregnancy and hospital birth expenses, even if you don’t otherwise qualify. I know someone who did that and said the nurse yelled at her because she wasn’t married.
deleted by creator
Question to Americans, is it a secret way to make poor people not have children?
If it is, it’s a bad one lol. Poor people tend to have more kids, just in general, and that doesn’t change in the states.
No. The rich want poor people to crack out kids to fill up the military and create downward salary pressure on the working class.
Not to mention, being poor usually means poorly educated which means easily manipulated by the corporate media.
Shhh you aren’t supposed to let people in on the plan. Just think what would happen if they learned to read and saw this.
I assume you’re downvoted by someone who’s oblivious to the concept of sarcasm.
But I’ll add that even if they read this, we can always ban abortions so their whole life is fucked and they become good and obedient -slaves- workers
That’s a steady supply of cannon fodder for a couple decades.
No I think it’s the opposite. They expect people to get pregnant and have kids (though with abortion and birth control that is happening less- hence targeting those recently). This is designed to make sure they stay poor so that the wage slave class stays well populated.
deleted by creator
Actually it’s easier to pay hospital bills when you’re poor. You either go to a non-profit hospital and ask for charity, where they’ll wipe your bill clean if you make too little, or you just don’t pay the bill. What’s bankruptcy if you’re too poor to have credit anyways?
what about a midde class person? someone that makes enough to be able to pay 20k, but meaning that would be their savings
The actual middle class generally has a job that gives health insurance which will pay for it almost entirely. If you don’t, you’re probably not middle class unfortunately
While it’s a fact that the middle class is shrinking, I think you’re miscalibrated.
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4631736
You’re describing what people used to think “middle class” meant. These days, we all know that health insurance doesn’t cover nearly as much as you want it to. Costs have skyrocketed in the last few years, let alone decades.
You have never been poor have you? I can guarantee you that it is not that easy.
Having assets and credit are too very different things. And forcing some one in to poor credit can affect them for decades. Making it difficult or impossible to do simple things like have a bank or finding a place to rent. That is why it is called a cycle of poverty. Once you get the label of poor. It can be very hard to remove that label even if you are hardworking and have a stable job. Live become more expensive making it even harder to get out of poverty.
Plus if you think bankruptcy is an easy or quick process. I hope you never have to go through it.
I have been poor if you consider making 15k a year for five years and having to live with three other people to make ends meet poor. Also, I was being somewhat facetious.
dunno, my sister hired a midwife to handle the birth. i heard it was cheaper than a hospital visit but I have no idea of the actual cost.
As a poor Florida resident who grew up and has known several people giving birth in poverty; if you’re lucky you qualify for WIC (women, infants, and children) which is essentially food stamps/ welfare for pregnant women and mothers. That covers food. If you qualify for WIC then you’re also eligible for Medicaid which is the US’ version of free* healthcare for people in poverty. That will cover pre and post natal care for the mother and baby. The baby is usually covered until they’re ~6. Unless you’re still poor by then, in which case it usually covers the child to adulthood or until their parents no longer qualify for Medicaid. Note that none of this covers diapers, clothes, or other necessities for the infant. Just food and drs visits. If you’re poor, but on the [benefits cliff](https://www.ncsl.org/human-services/introduction-to-benefits-cliffs-and-public-assistance-programs#:~:text=Benefits cliffs (the “cliff effect,a small increase in earnings.) you can get fucked lol. Murica
To clarify, currently around ~40% of Americans have government funded insurance.
… which is not to say that it’s free or even affordable (despite the name), or that residents in every state have equal access, or that the government is providing the plan. The ACA is a subsidy that slightly reduces the cost of private insurance, provided that you’re poor enough to qualify and that your state chooses to accept the federal government’s help beyond a certain threshold.
5% increase since your other comment?
My other comment was just Medicare/Medicaid. There’s also VA, and insurance for federal employees.
Healthcare in the US generally screws the middle, not the poor, even then it’s the lower middle. The poor qualify for Medicaid which generally pays for anything major and basic healthcare, though options may be limited. The old get Medicare which covers pretty much everything outside a nursing home for fairly little out of pocket. The middle and upper class generally has decent insurance that isn’t crazy expensive to have and doesn’t have a ton of out of pocket costs provided by an employer.
It’s the people with high deductible plans that can’t or won’t contribute to an hsa, and those that don’t have employer provided healthcare that really get screwed.
Idk where your coming from but as someone who had $12k in an HSA and employer medical that’s bs.
I went to the eye doctor and needed glasses. Tried using my HSA. Nope. Not an approved medical expense. Tried paying a copay at the er. Nope not an approved medical expense. Wife got a kidney stone removed via surgery. Wanted to pay coinsurance. Nope not an approved medical expense. I needed a cpap for my sleep apnea. Nope not an approved medical expense. Year rolled over and all that money disappeared. I asked where it went and was told I either used it or lost it. So I got rid of it. Fucking garbage.
As for the employer coverage, we had a zero dollar deductible plan. My wife gave birth last year. Ambulance ride from her work? Nope, not necessary. All the gyno visits? Nope, not necessary. The ER visit when she slipped and fell at 6 months? Nope, not necessary. The 2 week hospital stay when she went preeclamptic? Nope, not necessary. The delivery? Nope, not necessary. The NICU stay for our premature daughter? Nope, not necessary.
I payed $1700 per PAY for my health insurance and they didn’t cover a cent from our entire family last year. We racked up over $70k in medical debt. Our MOOP was $5k/$10k and they said none of it applied.
Hospital sent it to collections because we couldn’t fit their minimum payment of $9k/mth (fuck duke lifepoint but this is an insurance rant). We complained to the pa board of health insurance and were advised to get a lawyer but no lawyer would take it. They said it would be years to get anything back, let alone the full amount.
We ended up proving that my employer doesn’t offer comprehensive insurance. The main component is covering pre and post natal care which they claim to, but they deny every time. So now we have insurance through penni for $60/mth with government help. Oh and we went through bankruptcy to get rid of the collections debt.
Fuck Cigna, fuck duke lifepoint, fuck insurance, fuck for profit healthcare, fuck the American healthcare system.
Those are definitely all HSA things, and something I use mine for all the time. Dunno how it worked for you but I basically just have a debit card I can use that has my HSA balance on it. Functions like any other card.
I had to give an account number for my purchases and they billed it like insurance. Then they would call me and harass me for miss using the card and demand a ton of business information that they could just ask the business for. I would need to get EIN numbers from my eye doctors and stuff to get them to believe it was a business. Then they would tell me they can’t authorize it and garnish my wages as “repayment”
I mean yeah fuck insurance but everyone of those things you listed is definitely covered by HSA. I use my HSA every year for glasses, hospital bills and doctors appointments. also it sounds like you had an FSA since you lost what you didn’t spend. HSA has rollover. But all those expenses you listed are also eligible for FSA.
Sorry for the late reply, I typically browse on Artemis and notifications are broke.
But ya, that was my point. You can have “good” insurance but whats covered is still up to them. They can deny whatever they want and get away with it because no one wants to fight back. Every one of those things are legitimate medical purchases but they don’t care because there is nothing to enforce payment. So they deny everything to keep your money and give you nothing in return.
Vaginally
deleted by creator
