Just watched the Boy Boy video on George Bush’s Masterclass, and they made me think about which U.S. President was actually worse.
Woodrow fucking Wilson. Worst. President. Ever.
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Coming in hot. Didn’t he imprison Eugene Debbs?
That appears to have been Grover Cleveland
During the first red scare. Thanks.
Andrew Johnson
Oh he’s my number two, with Andrew Jackson taking third. Then we get to people like Nixon, Reagan, Bush, and Mango Mousolini.
I think a lot of the worst presidents basically embodied the historical time they were in and were just the ones at the helm of the presidency. Other’s like Johnson, I’d say with the issue of reconstruction specifically, that was a true hinge point that just went to absolute shit and we’re still living with it.
Trump: Started 0 wars. Caused 0 economic crises. Bush: Started 2 wars (Iraq, Afghanistan). Caused the biggest financial crisis since the Great Depression.
Tried to start 5 wars*
I’m not sure how you can claim with a straight face that Trump caused 0 economic crises when we’re still in the process of recovering from a economic crisis tied to a massively bungled initial pandemic response. Remember how Trump and his cronies came out every day for about 4 months and pretended that there was no pandemic, that it was under control, and that it would magically disappear by easter 2020? That cost the world a lot of money and, much more importantly, a lot of human lives.
As for war and war crimes, Trump removed all transparency around drone strike operations that had been in place during the Obama administration, so…
Second source: https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/trumps-secret-rules-for-drone-strikes-and-presidents-unchecked-license-to-kill
Unlike every other country that handled it perfectly right?
If you can’t even mention the failed coup, it’s obvious who you still support.
If it happened in any other country, it would have been called a coup or insurrection by the media, for sure.
For the US, Trump tried to destoy democracy so that’s hard to top. And if he gets elected again, he will certainly succeed. For the rest of the world, both are clowns with nuclear weapons so equally dangerous. Trump just didnt had enough time to make as much damage, but what Trump did that Bush didnt, is inspiring right-wingers around thw world, with is deinfornation tactics.
I think Trump will have done the most damage when the dust settles. We’ve had almost 20 years to see the effects Bush had on our country but only about 3 years since Trump left office. He packed the Supreme Court, made people proud to be racists, destroyed our electoral system, gutted the EPA, sold our secrets to our enemies, and made fascism popular.
Bush started a war in which US massacred over 6 million people. It’s absolutely incredible how Americans absolutely don’t give a shit about all the atrocities their deplorable regime does around the globe
According to the WHO, nearly 7 million people worldwide have died to date due to COVID-19. Aside from just mortality, COVID-19 has caused massive shockwaves across economic systems across the world that irreversibly impacted hundreds of millions of people. I won’t pretend all of COVID deaths were caused by Trump, but you can bet your ass that a significant number of them, my personal extended family included, died because he politicized the virus and treated it like it was no big deal.
Blaming covid on Trump is quite the stretch given that there was no tangible difference between the approach that Trump and Biden admins took towards handling the pandemic. The media just stopped reporting the deaths on daily basis when democrats got into power. US deaths account for around 1.1 million, and a large portion of those deaths happened under democrats.
The reason people died was due to lack of a social safety net, lack of sick days, lack of free healthcare, and so on. Saying that people died because Trump politicized the virus is frankly nonsensical.
I agree with a lot of what you say but our electoral system was fkd way before him. People were already proud of being racist he just gave them a microphone. The EPA still gets me though. We have been moving more and more to a fascist government for years now since the event of 2001 when we gave up privacy for security.
I think it’s more what happened under the cover of Trump, ie what Republicans do, which is where the damage was in Trump’s presidency. He was basically a smokescreen and scapegoat for all manner of interests, but as an individual almost completely vapid aside from his narcissistic drive for attention, which all mainstream politics was more than happy to provide him with.
Worse for the world? Bush. Worse for America? Trump. But I don’t really care about America so Bush from me.
Worse for the world? Bush
I’ll just leave this here:
Covid global deaths: 6.5 million (aside from the million+ in the US I doubt Trumps handling caused more than half)
War on Terror: 4.5 million deaths in the wars. 38 million people displaced/refugees.
I stand with the assessment that Bush was far worse for the world.
Listen, I’m not really into quantifying human suffering like that, so let’s just suffice to say that both Trump and Bush were fucking terrible human beings who did lasting damage to the world.
It’s also very much worth noting that Trump was a willing and active participant in American wars in the Middle East, and he did so with impunity and with less accountability than his predecessors. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/22/obama-drones-trump-killings-count/ (Plus he assassinated an Iranian general in Iraq without the knowledge and consent of the Iraqi government, which is arguably a war crime and could have easily escalated into a war with Iran.)
How is trump guilty for covid deaths in other countries?
You also have to consider that 100% of the war deaths were actively done with intent while spreading COVID was more passive and the result of a lot of idiots ignoring good practice. One is negligence, while the other is malice.
spreading COVID was more passive and the result of a lot of idiots ignoring good practice. One is negligence, while the other is malice.
When world leaders like Trump (1) ignore pandemic planning, (2) lie about the seriousness and gravity of the situation during the crucial early days and weeks of the pandemic, (3) turn pandemic precautions and public safety measures into just another pointless item in their culture war, and (4) spend just about every waking moment scapegoating scientists, fomenting conspiracy theories, and intentionally muddying the waters, it’s can no longer be considered “negligence”.
Right from the guy at the top, the Trump administration made calculated political decisions and came up with talking points that actively made COVID-19 worse, and we are still feeling the effects of it today. The pandemic may be “over” when it comes to public policy, but an incalculable number of people all over the world are still having health problems as a result of the virus (which is now endemic to humanity), and we are still very much in the middle of the economic fallout with still no end in sight.
Whether COVID was worse than the War on Terror is debatable and subjective (I’m not exactly a fan of either, frankly), but there’s no doubt in my mind that the effects of COVID on global health and economics were much more wide-spread.
Yes I’m aware of this. But most of the world fell down on the response plan. He just fell down harder.
Also, it’s such a uniquely North American thing to downplay the invasion of other countries. They went in after 9/11, using a terrorist attacking as an excuse to use war tactics known as “shock and awe” MOAB bombing to make the CITIZENS feel helpless while they literally went and privatized their entire resource economy so that it would go to foreign businesses. Do you understand what that means for a country? How absolutely fucked up that is?
Also, it’s such a uniquely North American thing to downplay the invasion of other countries.
(a) I’m not downplaying the invasion of other countries, so right off the bat you’re mischaracterizing what I’m saying.
If anything, you are downplaying Trump’s involvement in American wars in the Middle East, which he may not have started, but he was certainly a willing participant in them. Droning people with impunity and less accountability than ever before, and even assassinating an Iranian general in January 2020–an act that could have very easily escalated into a direct conflict with Iran and its allies.
Also it’s funny that you bring up the MOAB, because from what I remember it was Trump, not Bush, who dropped the MOAB on Afghanistan in 2017; resulting in the largest single explosive attack by America since the dropping of the atomic bombs during WW2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Nangarhar_airstrike
(b) Downloading invasions is very obviously not a “uniquely North American thing”. See: Russian downplaying of the invasion of Ukraine, Japan downplaying the history of their invasions of Asia, British attitudes towards imperialism and the pillaging of cultural artifacts from all over the world, Chinese annexation of Tibet and the literal filtering of information regarding it, and so on for all of human history.
Trump and Bush were both awful presidents and human beings, but I maintain that Trump was worse for America, for democracy, and for the Earth.
Bush is/was a better person but had a worse presidency. He got swept up in the popular sentiment post 9/11 and enacted unconstitutional law and bad foreign policies. That said I’d rather get lunch with Bush than with Trump. Plus Trump’s legacy probably won’t be as big as Bush’s was.
Definitely Trump. Tried to subvert democracy, wholly unprofessional attitude as president (in my opinion the first president to not even attempt “rising to the office” at all), handled the economy with the tact of a middle schooler, and (allegedly) divulged / kept classified documents. He is also a civilly liable rapist. All of this I think makes Trump the third worst president of all time, behind James Buchanan and Franklin Pierce.
George Bush is easily the second worst president in modern history, his initial response to 9/11 was a highpoint, but afterwards he started a useless war and, although he incorrectly wouldn’t see it this way, bent at the knee to terrorism by subverting constitutional rights for the purposes of mass searches and seizures of information without a warrant or reasonable cause. (i.e. Patriot Act). It’s been a while since I hashed out a whole list, but I believe I had Bush somewhere between 7th and 12th worst or so.
Both are absolute pieces of shit.
Bush was literally put in through a coup
Public opinion was very much in favor of the war in Afghanistan after 9/11. Maybe not so much Iraq, but it’s hard to blame Bush squarely for those wars when they had bipartisan support.
Bush is done doing damage to our country, and might actually be considered a voice of reason compared to today’s Republicans.
It’s definitely already Trump, and he’s not even done doing damage yet.
Even if Republicans elect someone who is identical to Trump in his words, views, and actions, that person would still be better for the country than Trump. It’s critically important for the justice department to hold him accountable for the insurrection and trying to overthrow our democracy, or it WILL happen again.
I didn’t have a problem going into Afghanistan. I had alarm bells going off in my head before going into Iraq but I didn’t say shit. that’s not going to happen again.
The “good war” is always an alarm bell for me, the real losers are always civilians, and what America did in Afghanistan and Iraq dwarfs what’s going on in Gaza now.
You should dig a little further into the run up to the Iraq war. If you like podcasts checkout the first season of “Blowback”. Pretty in depth history. Trump was awfull in other ways but the Bush administration has the blood of hundreds of thousands on their hands.
Even if Republicans elect someone who is identical to Trump in his words, views, and actions, that person would still be better for the country than Trump.
You had me up to here, I disagree. Either case would be a disaster. If it walks like a Trump, and quacks like a Trump, it’s a Trump.
Worst for the world was Bush (so you could say Bush was more immoral) but worst for America was Trump (so you could say Trump failed at his job harder.)
Bush’s actions killed a staggering number of people on flimsy evidence.
Trump changed phrases like “balkanization of the United States” and “Second US Civil War” from far-off possibilities and fun speculation to serious concerns.
Trump tried to start a civil war, overthrow democracy, and install himself as king. Trumpism is tearing the country apart and trying so very hard to burn it all down. There’s no contest.
*Another different way to word it: Bush made terrible decisions. Trump wants to burn it all down.
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Iraq was a war that Bush had to sell, but Americans were out for blood after 9/11 and the Taliban was hosting the group that planned the attack at that time. The international community agreed that 9/11 was effectively an act of war and didn’t really complain about the invasion of Afghanistan.
The Bush administration fucked up the war and occupation of Afghanistan, but the only way to stop that way would be to stop 9/11.
This is too fatalistic for my tastes
If 9/11 happened to any other major country at the time, including Russia and China, I doubt the outcome would have been something less than a war. Maybe the war might not have a stated goal of toppling the Taliban outright, but there would have been military action in Afghanistan to address al-Qaeda.
I mean the Taliban literally offered up Bin Laden but Bush rejected the offer and instead chose to invade. 20 years later and hundreds of thousands there’s nothing to show for it. It’s not like there weren’t people critical of the invasion at the time.
The Taliban didn’t. They offered to give bin Laden to another Islamic nation to give to the USA. Even if you were to look at 9/11 as a crime instead of an act of war, the Taliban weren’t interacting with established norms of handing over suspects of a crime across international borders.
And some people were critical of the invasion at the time, but no decision is going to be unanimous across an entire nation. Also, a lot of the criticism wasn’t really based on the Taliban being in the right, but more in regards of dealing with the country after deposing the only political group capable of some type of national organization.
They offered him up to be tried in a third country and were open to negotiating. That’s still offering him up. The invasion just ensured that the Taliban and even Al Queda had plenty of new recruits. Bin Laden also remained at large for almost another decade. I’d consider it an abject failure if it wasn’t clear that the Bush administration didn’t really give a damn about their stated objectives.
Instead they just wanted to extend the US’s military influence into Central Asia and make a quick buck of military contracts in the process.
The Taliban were negotiating on behalf of some who launched such a large attack that it could have been considered to be an act of war, and even then were proposing methods that would allow bin Laden to escape and were outside international norms for handling criminals.
And the attempted capture of bin Laden was a failure, but we are looking back on what happened. The actual successful capture of bin Laden involved the breaching of sovereignty of a nuclear power to attack him in a night operation. Pakistan wasn’t even given the option to negotiate.
When talking about who was worse we can’t just look at the atrocities. But for America specifically Trump is worse. Bush was just another crooked politician fueling the war machine. Trump tried to take over after he lost. Technically bush did his job, Trump tried to burn the store down for not renewing a contract.
Covid killed a lot of people - millions of them. It’s not a war, but Trump’s management of covid resulted in a lot of unnecessary deaths.
Afghanistan was UN sanctioned, Iraq was the one that was not.
Now let’s think about how many people would have died if Trump succeeded. Worldwide even as more right wing mobs tried to overthrow their countries and Putin would run even more unchecked.
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You can’t be serious.
That’s like asking what’s worse, herpes or an airborne and highly infectious strain of herpes that also causes cancer and melts your brain faster than syphilis.
Not an American but Trump was far more embarrassing to your international reputation than Bush. They’re both 2 of the worst presidents you’ve ever had but Trump is a whole different level of shitty. He’s like fascist shitty, whereas Bush was neo-con shitty.
Also not American. People who were anti-bush had at least some kind of greater belief about capitalism, politics, etc. Literally everyone knew trump was a buffoon.
Bush actually stole the election lol
Yeah but he didn’t incite an insurrection like Trump did.
There’s at least a veneer of legitimacy over the Florida supreme court deciding to award the state’s votes to Bush in 2000. Does it suck and should it be fixed? Yes. Was it illegal and dangerous to democracy? No, or at least not as bad as Jan 6 and the other crimes Trump and friends committed to try to steal the 2020 election.
Found another liberal who thinks decorum is the most important part of the political system. The veneer of legitimacy is MUCH worse then the obvious flailing of someone who lost.
Found the liberal. Sorry the worst thing to have ever happened to you was trump being mean on the internet. I’m sure Millions of Iraqis understand your pain.
He’s like fascist shitty, whereas Bush was neo-con shitty.
Corporate would like you to find the difference between these two pictures.
Look they both don’t fall far from the shit tree, but the political philosophy nerd in me still does think there’s some key points of difference. And these points of difference are useful in recognising and responding to fascist ideology because it’s inherently parasitic and spreads by latching itself onto other ideas. That’s why you can have things like eco-fascism and atheist fascism, which don’t traditionally align with conservatism. Umberto Eco actually outlines the specifics of fascism and how it’s a uniquely shitty ideology that can work it’s way into any dark corner of complex human societies.
of the two, Trump did more damage while he was president and had the bigger riot when he lost the popular vote, but Bush’s legacy of damage lasted from when he launched his forever wars in 02 all the way into the Biden administration
Thanks for the thoughtful answer. It seems the consensus is Trump.
Bush was worse internationally, Trump was worse domestically. If he got one more term, who’d know?
