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Dude that’s not LEFT. they made us believe that. It’s just common sense
Anyone who labels themselves a centrist is just an embarrassed republican. No one, and I mean, no one on earth is 50/50 on Trump.
Remember that when the media starts flapping about centrists and swing voters.
they dont actually exist.
Elections are about the total number of voters, not convincing a bunch of imaginary people to make a better choice. That is a myth and both parties know it.
This comment is embarrassing. Kudos for your inability to view politics outside of the lens of American party lines.
This comment is embarrassing. Kudos for your ability to inject politics outside of the lens of American politics into a thread clearly about American politics.
How is this thread clearly about America? Typical Americans thinking everything is about them. The post is about leftism Vs. Centrism more generally.
Remember that when the media starts flapping about centrists and swing voters. they dont actually exist.
That’s about the worst sentence I have seen on lemmy so far.
It’s two sentences and both are grammatically correct.
- Not talking about grammar and you know it.
- It’s wrong because it’s simply too stupid to assume a whole caucus of voters don’t exist because you haven’t been outside US
You’re just telling on yourself at this point. Sorry for your mental deficiencies. Stay in school kids!
Swing voters most assuredly exist and if you think they don’t you’re ignorant about the US political process
Centrists are people who think being on the fence about every issue is a shortcut to being intelligent.
I’d take it a step farther and say that a centrist is just a fucking moron who believes there’s two sides to everything and both have merit. But these people don’t really exist or are so fringe as to be irrelevant.
There’s the other kind of moron, that thinks both sides are equally wrong. We call those South Park writers.
“Look at those idiots who care and, like, make an effort.”
Or admitting they’re too dumb to make an informed decision. I’m proudly in that camp on several issues. Not going to spout rhetoric I don’t understand.
But the centrist character on TV said a line that made the other characters shut up! He has to be smart!
goddammit I hate how accurate this is
This thread taught me that Americans don’t even know what centrism is
They remember a subreddit called “Enlightened Centrism” and don’t get the joke.
Centralism doesn’t exist in Europe either. You’ve got the left wing party’s the right wing party’s the ultra nationalist right-wing party’s - if you’re lucky the right-wing party and the ultra national is right-wing party a different parties, sometimes they’re not though.
On that scale centre is right wing. We need some actual communists to balance the political seesaw.
The extremists pretty much all over the world have shifted the conversation so far to the right that there’s no room for a centralist party anymore because if they existed they would be opposed to pretty much everything right-wing party’s would be doing, and then they may as well just be the left-wing party.
That is complete bs, my country - Austria - has a center-left and a center-right party and that’s exactly what they are. And we do have an actual communist party, btw.
Of course there’s centralism in Europe
What are you talking about lol
That’s my point, we don’t.
Look at Turkey, you’ve either got a borderline dictatorship, or you’ve got a party that want a democracy, there isn’t someone in the middle going oh well we should have the best of both worlds.
The right wing have basically pushed their agenda so much that there’s no room for anyone in the middle anymore they’ve stretched the political spectrum so why the middle essentially doesn’t exist. There’s no shades of grey anymore.
If your first argument is Turkey…
That’s like saying the US public transport available by pointing out that Manhattan exists.
How about this… centrist, left, right… all subjective, even more-so regionally.
Most people commenting in political threads don’t know anything about anything.
Or European lol Because yeah we actually have more than 2 party
These two blokes are clearly US folks.
Lemmy quite skewed towards American leftists (real left, not democrats)
No one exists with views like this. I’ve done my research. I know! LOL
When faced with a different view point they can’t fathom it’s easier to say it is not possible than to have a rational discussion. It’s easier to hate on people than to try to understand them. I find both sides to be extremely lazy in their thinking.
Most people who label themselves leftists think it is socialism when the government does things and thus consider themselves socialists.
It’s not a new thing that people support political ideologies, or identifying with certain ideologies, because they’re dumb.
I’d absolutely vote for GOP 15 years ago depending on who is running. Today not so much.
If the GOP ever puts forward another Romney I think you’ll find that plenty of centrists exist.
Same applies when you hear an American person say they’re a social-liberal but fiscal-conservative. They think it makes them sound like an enlightened centrist, but as soon as I hear it I think “oh, this person’s a Trumper who doesn’t have the balls to just say it.”
Fiscal conservatives quietly became Republicans, but not “conservatives”. There’s a weird thing going on with that here… Your not wrong, though. They have been greedy cowards of they took this stance in the last few decades.
Fiscally conservative should mean voting for Democrats because Republicans are fucking awful with money.
But the Republicans still hold onto this myth that they’re somehow more financially responsible.
We need a reverse version of that “always has been” meme for “never were”
no one on earth is 50/50 on Trump
This is not being a “centrist”, thats a fifty-fifty-est
aka the Cassandra curse
“Why don’t you listen to both sides of the argument and make your own opinions and arguments based on that?”
Bitch, why do you think I’m a fucking leftist???
The enlightened centrist here comes across as a Republican too embarrassed to admit it – it seems to be a core thought in conservatism that anyone who isn’t conservative just hasn’t formed an independent opinion, and if they did that, they’d be conservative.
Hey leftists how about you stick your head in the sand and live in blissful ignorance like us centrists do. Meanwhile our asses are sticking up and we get ass raped by capitalism. But because we “listen” to “both” sides and make up our own mind we decided to actually enjoy it.
I have family members who refer to me as Cassandra because I regularly spout “inane nonsense” about the future which then inevitably becomes true.
I don’t have a gift or a crystal ball. I have two eyes and (sadly) a working brain and the werewithal to study history and put one and one together.
We aren’t geniuses by any stretch of imagination. It’s just extremely sad and painful to see almost everyone else keep going with the (just) bearable lies vs the distinctively unbearable truth.
I realise this isn’t the most enlightened response but I entirely misread “Cassandra” as “Canada” and it made the entire reply SO much more entertaining.
Cassandra… in Greek mythology was a Trojan priestess dedicated to the god Apollo and fated by him to utter true prophecies but never to be believed. In modern usage her name is employed as a rhetorical device to indicate a person whose accurate prophecies, generally of impending disaster, are not believed.
For those who were also wondering
I’d also suggest Mythos by Stephen Fry. Good book for someone who would like to read about Greek mythology.
Oh, that’s why that wall street dude uses that name on Xitter!
Xitter rhymes whit shitter he he he hehehe
Theres no way her family are both smart enough to both dub her Cassandra (given that reference), but also not able to comprehend the reasons behind what she says…
I don’t know quite a lot of conservatives are smart in terms of education they’re just not very good at critical thinking skills.
No, no, she’s the last human in the universe. A bitchy trampoline.
I’m like this, but I’m just a pessimist. I naturally expect a terrible outcome from everything, and get disappointed every time I’m right.
My roomie got called in on an all-staff meeting on a weekend back in spring. They’re truckers, so some work weekends, it’s normal. All-staff meetings were not however. No one divulged any information, and so I was all “oh you’re all getting laid off.” My friend was all “that’s impossible, they’re actively hiring!”
Day came. Gathering started. Atmosphere was great. My friend sent me a text going all “we’re all having a great time, drinking coffee and eating cinnamon buns, talking about work.” Half an hour later “so we just all got laid off.”
The company was struggling as a whole, so they decided to shut down operations in this region in an attempt to downsize and keep the company afloat long enough to remedy the situation. The management didn’t know until right before the meeting, hence why no one knew what the meeting was for.
I’m in the same boat and have to admit that while I had very low expectations people call me nuts for, the past decade especially has had me go “this is even worse!” quite a few times.
Reality somehow one ups my worst expectations on a regular basis still.
Pluto is a planet vibes
Well as a centralist I think that both sides are correct, and Pluto is therefore a very small planet and not a planet.
I think I handled that very gracefully
Ironically, Pluto is a valid case of being in between definitions, unlike the BS of political “right vs. left”.
You know, science is about opinions. And I disagree. /s
Both sides narrative it’s ring wing propaganda, “both sides are the same, so why don’t you vote for us, you won’t feel guilty”
Only “centrist” fall for it, and saying falling for it, it’s pretty generous, “centrist”, “independent”, they really want to fall for it, any excuse is good enough, so they can vote ring wing or openly fascist people.
Both sides people = conservative RW afraid of judgement.
TIL that Americans hate centrists, and that anyone that doesn’t fully support the left must be fascists. What the fuck is going on in your country?
Looking through all the comments in this topic, it’s sad to see that at this point we’re arguing about defining labels, instead of solving problems.
Since when are the leftists right?
Takes deep breath Democratic vs Autocratic systems Dangers of Fascism(WW2) Slavery Woman (voting) rights Workers rights Racial Segregation Vietnam Abortion rights Invasion of Iraq Banking Crisis(Lack of Regulation) Pollution Ozone Layer Climate Change Infinite Growth, Resources, yada yada
Just a little excerpt
Basically every major crisis in the last 100+ years was well forseen by leftists pointing at it saying “guys this will definitely go wrong” and there were always people shouting “shut up you little sissy treehugger” at them
Basically every major crisis in the last 100+ years was well forseen by leftists pointing
Yes crisis and issues objectively created by their own leftist policies, presidents wtv. I’m aware that you guys are most likely Americans and I’m not. Politics in Europe works differently and here is the kicker: every leftist politician in the US would be considered extreme right if they tried to appeal to people in Europe in the way they do in the US. Sometimes you even hear people joking about the fact that our most “extreme right” politician is more leftist than the most leftist one in the US. It may also come as as shock to you that here there isn’t much distinction between leftist parties and plain communist parties - they even usually win elections on coalitions and they also own the majority of the media around here.
Essentially what we have around here is extreme left, mostly communist, governing countries while running their show on the shadows of “Hitler (the right) was bad”. The end result is an Europe that is constantly massacred with immigration from Islamic countries and economies hitting the rock bottom. Most of you can’t even begin to imagine the damage already done and how bad things are now. The left/communists failed Europe and this is why today they say the “extreme right” (which is actually about as right as the US left) is on the raise here.
Ok, name one European country currently governed by a “extreme left, mostly communist” party.
https://www.euronews.com/2022/01/27/how-portugal-s-odd-political-coalition-was-born
All EU generally speaking leans a lot towards left and sometimes coalitions with straight communist parties. Where do you think that taxes like this, free healthcare (albeit bad), govt. moves this this bs come from?
Okay, so you think free healthcare and stuff like raising minimum salary is communism.
I’m guessing you also think Biden is left-wing, right?
free healthcare and stuff like raising minimum salary is communism
No, but there’s a very thin like between useful socialism and driving countries and economies to trash and making everyone unable to sustain themselves and/or depend on govt. subsidies and all kinds of welfare benefits.
There’s also the typical environmental / “green” push that boils down to ensure that people lose whatever they have (cars, houses etc.) because “its bad for the planet”. Are you aware that in some countries here people are getting taxed around 500€/year because they own cars older than some year that the gov says that its bad for the environment? What do you think that will happen? People don’t have old cars because they want to, they have them because they can’t afford new cars. Are you aware that during the COVID times you also had multiple govts forcing people to get vaccinated (or be unable to be in public places, work etc.) and that there were new laws put in place that allow the govt to claim a property or house due to “public interest” if the owner doesn’t comply with some other laws requiring to maintain a certain level of insulation in those houses? What do you think that happens here? Again people don’t have good houses not because they don’t want to, its because they are poor and can’t afford better. Now tell me, isn’t this communism?
What are you even talking about? Portugal’s economy has been great under the so-called “communist” government, and although it was far from perfect in other aspects, the economy has been the least concern from what I understood.
And what do environmental policies even have to do with communism? I don’t think Marx even knew what global warming was. Modern countries that label themselves as communists are among the least environment-friendly. Again, literally every policy backed by left-wingers = communism?
The communists stacking to downvote this comment ahaha
Leftism ≠ communism
communism is when disagree with me
Some factions of leftists are wrong. Unfortunately, these are the factions that have historically gained political power
the left has always been right.
Just as the right has never been right – it’s always been wrong.
If the right were right it would realise that the right were left.
The right should have left the left to right the wrongs, as is their right. Right?
With no right left behind!
Literally arguing for a middle ground between correct and incorrect because they reflexively have to make themselves look like the reasonable center whenever the left/right dynamic comes up on the internet.
No thought into the response it’s just Pavlovian centrist drooling.
The “others” think they are correct too. It’s simple tribal politics.
deleted by creator
I think the point is that if one side is correct and the other side is incorrect (regardless of which side that is) then someone with that point of view cannot possibly be centralist.
To be centralist you would have to conceive the both sides have a point. Centralists like to claim that they listen to both sides and then make an opinion on who to support, but they don’t, they just stick around in the middle. They never actually commit to one side or the other, because if they did that they wouldn’t be centralist anymore and they wouldn’t be able to be on their high horse.
Except life isn’t black and white and rarely is one side “wrong” and the other side “right”.
Committing to “the truth” is simplifying a grey universe which contains millions of those truths. You can’t be certain which is right and which is wrong.
Sure, nobody can be certain, but we make the best decisions we can based on the available data. Predicating your political identity on the idea that the truth always lies in the middle of the Overton Window is what people ridicule about self-identifying centrists. Because the right’s discourse is essentially a fabric of lies, and centrists are always convinced that they must have some good points. That they invariably have the gall to claim to be the adults in the room is just the icing on the stupid cake.
Again, lots of words to say “right bad left gud centrist wrong” in a very grey world. It’s not how it works. Every decision has its consequences, even ones you might think are “obviously best” at the moment.
No shit. Having political opinions doesn’t mean “I don’t think about things, I just do what my team says.” Claiming to be politically unaligned doesn’t mean you’re considering things more seriously or carefully than anyone else. Rather the opposite.
And yet a lot of the people are simply talking about “right” vs “left” and “false” versus “true”. Sounds an awful lot like “I don’t think about things, I just do what my team says” to me.
No it doesn’t it means you don’t bother actually considering anything you are literally claiming to be superior by being uninformed. You are claiming ignorance as a virtue.
“Climate change is an existential threat to humanity” this is the truth, anything that goes against that would be false, yet every right wing group will try and tell you otherwise.
Okay, sure. But at what level does it stop being a threat? Do we need to revert to a pre-industrial society? Do we need to ban trade shipping? Do we need to get rid of every plane? What alternative sources of energy do we go for? Do they have drawbacks that are acceptable?
There is nuance to everything. You can’t just shout slogans and say “this is the objective truth!”
You’re avoiding directly addressing their point because you can’t figure out how to answer it without taking a real stance.
The stated “Climate change is an existential threat”. The right says no it isn’t. The left says yes it is. By nature of the statement it either is or it isn’t, so of course you choose address it in an indirect way that allows you to avoid having an opinion.
This is a real issue so stop being a fence sitter and take a real stance for once in your life. Or if you choose to never have a real opinion on anything recognize that people aren’t going to take what you have to say seriously.
You seem to have missed my point. What other truth is there than climate change being an existential threat to humanity? I’m not arguing solutions, I’m talking about just acknowledging the existence of a problem. There is no centrist stance here because it either is, or isn’t. Which opinion do you hold? Congrats on finding out your fence sitting has a level of impotence not seen since Henry VIII
Okay, sure. But at what level does it stop being a threat?
First, the Right Wing would have to admit that Climate Change even exists. Hell, here in Canada our Conservative party voted to not admit it exists.
Committing to “the truth” is simplifying a grey universe which contains millions of those truths. You can’t be certain which is right and which is wrong.
There are a lot of grey areas, but racism and fashism is just wrong, there is nothing grey about it. Trump either won the election or he didn’t, one is a truth and the other is a lie, there cannot be two truths. You are either pregnant or not. You are alive or dead. Just because there are grey areas does not mean that every area is grey. If you have to construct grey areas to avoid committing to the truth, then you are on the side of the lie.
And if you know exactly where the truth is, and you still vote for the lie, then you are in bed with the liar and getting his flies.
Sometime the ‘others’ are Russian trolls/bots infiltrating these posts on Lemmy and other sites where leftists hang. Oligarchs hate it when you talk about taxing their excessive lifestyles.
Yeah, imagine that those guys praise themselves for agreeing only to half of a genocide instead of a full one, that’s how their “middle ground” works.
As for listening to both the arguments, if done only for the middle ground instead of truth seeking and actual critical thinking, you get this kind of shit. I listen to both arguments and they still get me to the left side just because the right side ones cancel themselves out as lies, deception or just dumbthinking and emotional response.
There are no centrists when one side is fascism.
The problem is you think anyone to the right of Stalin is a Nazi.
Edit: I’m glad my manic commenting this morning sparked such wonderful debate.
makes something up to cry over
The whole “if you say you’re centrist you’re actually a fascist” argument is literally making something up to cry over.
Anyone not expressly against fascism is perpetuating it whether they realize it or not.
You’re either anti-fascist, fascist, or helping the fascists by not caring.
Just because someone is against assholes like you doesn’t mean they’re not against fascism. In fact, I’d imagine that a lot of them are against you for the same reasons why they’re against fascism.
Unthinking status quoists make for the best nazis.
The problem appears to be that you think anyone left of Obama is Pol Pot
I voted for Obama. And Biden. I’d vote for Sanders, too.
All liberals.
Many major gov’ts currently have major parties courting fascists or are just outright Fascist. Like, have you not been paying attention?
And? Did I say that wasn’t happening? Believe it or not, refusing to engage in diplomacy doesn’t make the problem go away. And they say centrists bury their heads in the sand.
“First they came for the socialists…”
The moment someone courts Nazism or Fascism, diplomacy goes out the window for anyone worth being considered. There’s a reason the US doesn’t negotiate with terrorists, and that reason stands for fascists and other intolerant authoritarians or hate groups.
For what it’s worth, I feel the same way about tankies. Anyone who would see me dead or censored by force does not get the right to compromise. The Republicans lost that right the moment the first innocent woman got locked in a cage post-Dobbs, if not pre-Roe in the first place.
And how did that policy work out for us? We lost the Afghanistan war. I’m not flat out saying that your argument has no merit, I just think there is room for compromise with those who are not yet seduced by facism.
This argument also relies on the assumption that only facists can be bigots.
Also, I’m not saying we should compromise on all issues equally or that we can’t have our lines on the sand. But I do think there are some issues we can give a little on.
And how did that policy work out for us? We lost the Afghanistan war.
I’m not sure what the Afghanistan war has to do with compromising with fascists. Could you expand your point?
This argument also relies on the assumption that only facists can be bigots.
No. I’ll add anyone trying to enforce government-led bigotry to the list.
But I do think there are some issues we can give a little on.
Look where that gets us. You open with a compromise and they say “no”. You give them 90% of what they want and they say “no”. You finally give in 100% of what they want and they STILL say “no” because it makes them look good. Then they blame you when what they get what they wanted. Just look at Obamacare (not an issue of fascism but an issue with a neofascist party). A conservative president pitching a Heritage Foundation plan got HOW MANY votes from the opposition party after making a bunch of concessions beyond Heritage Foundation? if you’re not keeping count, Republicans provided ZERO total votes for the Republican-castrated ACA. And between blaming Obamacare for everything, half the Republicans took credit for the ACA as if it weren’t the same thing they voted against.
Fuck compromising with people who deal in bad faith.
Then where does that leave us? What options do we have besides completely stun locking the government? I’d honestly like to hear because that’s my major sticking point.
The way I see it, traditional Republicans have no platform. Their platform is simply anti-democrat. This as the reason facists have taken over the party. They, on the surface, represent a solution to the GOPs lack of direction. That’s how they’re convincing moderates to vote for them, imo.
When I say “compromise,” maybe I’m not being precise enough,that’s my fault. I don’t nessisarily mean on actual policy. I do think we need to compromise there as necessary, but I agree with you that we’ve given too much in exchange for too little. What I’m talking about is compromise in regards to how we engage in discourse.
Yea, we need to hold GOP voters accountable if they vote for neofacists. But most arguments we are far too aggressive (much like my own earlier comments). It helps nobody and only give ammunition to the opposition. They are not courting facists, facists are courting them. I believe that this is an important distinction. It means they can still be saved from joining the cult.
Maybe I’m being too optimistic, but I think that anyone (includong you and me) can be convinced to do horrible things if they presented in a way that exploits their existing beliefs.
“Centrists to fascists aren’t centrists”
“You just label anyone as Fascist”
“There’s a huge amount of fascists right now”
“Irrelevant!”
… what? I’m sorry, I can’t tell if you’re making a point or if you’re just reacting to comments as they come in. Cause that response made no sense in the greater context. I can’t even tell what point you’re trying to make at this point.
Then let me spell it out for you.
We, as leftists, tend to ignore authoritarians that attach themselves to our movement. I’m talking Marxists, Maoists, etc. These are people who aplogize for mass murderers. When they show up to rallies, they are welcomed. Democrat leaders cozy up to them. I see it happen regularly.
We then turn around and accuse the right of courting facism. This is the right thing to do, but we also need to take a look in our own camp. I don’t want authoritarians of any flavor.
I’m at a dead loss as to how your previous two comments relate to this at all. Maybe it’s my neurospiciness showing, but I can’t connect this thesis with your previous comments in any way.
Also, don’t say “let me spell it out for you”, it just comes across as condescending. It’s like you’re saying it’s so obvious that this was the point you were making when I just stated my confusion on your point. My confusion is an opportunity for you to clarify, not be a dick about it.
Well it’s probably my own spiciness showing. I was trying to wrap too many arguments in too few comments. I tried to stave off some of the more common arguments that distract from the topic at hand by making some logical leaps. I thought it would be obvious, but I was wrong. I might have also rolled several replies into one.
The important part is this: the idea that centrists can’t exist because the other side consists of “Nazis” is flawed. The entire spectrum of right leaning and conservative voters are not facists. In fact, most despise them as much as anyone else. The same goes for centrists, from what I have seen.
As to your question, yes I realize that facists are being entertained the world over. I can see what Israel and Russia are doing, and I know it much more widespread than that. I just don’t think the right move is to simply alienate anyone who isn’t already on your side and wait for the fash to take over.
And thanks for not returning my dickish energy, I was heated if you couldn’t tell.
Apparently their argument is that left-wingers in general love tankies, which in my experience isn’t true at all.
According to this comment, YOU should be downvoting yourself for your previous two comments.
You straight out suggested we should be diplomatic with the Far Right.
We, as leftists, tend to ignore authoritarians that attach themselves to our movement. I’m talking Marxists,
Oh. Now I see why you are downvoted to Putin’s bunker.
Is that the reason? It seems more like they’re being aggressive and not explaining their positions is the reason they’re downvoted.
Stalin was authoritarian? Not too far off from a Nazi with the atrocities he committed as well. Not a really apt comparison.
No, he was totalitarian. Example of authorutarian is Putin. I would reccomend you to watch Shulman’s lectures about totalitarian and authoritarian regimes, but you will not understand it unless you know russian. Or unless there is lecture in english.
TLDR: “I will kill you for the Idea” is totalitarism, libertarianism is autocracy.
Totalitarianism is a case of authoritarianism.
On that note, “I will kill you for the idea” is fanaticism.
No. Authoritarism implies depoliticization of society and promises like “we won’t touch you, you won’t touch us”, while totalitarism implies very politicized society. Both are dictatorships, but they work differently.
Not saying that one dictator is better than the other.
This is not the first time a Russian fails to comprehend Russian language.
The claim you’re making is a description of “informational autocracy”, which Shulman claims modern Russia were.
No idea what she claims now, when Russia has clearly moved past using just information to control its population since February 2022.
The only thing Stalin had in common with the Nazis was that he was a socialist. But like many oppressive figures, he only liked the idea of socialism because it traps your underlings into dependency which makes them easier to control under a tyrannical rule.
“He committed atrocities” is not the definition of being a Nazi. If that’s your definition, that’s non-standard and people will misunderstand your points.
He was a fascist authoritarian dictator who committed countless atrocities under the guise of “socialism”. He is very much like Hitler, historically. But no, he wasn’t a “Nazi”.
Stalin wasn’t fascist, though. Authoritarian, yes; dictator, yes. Fascism is specifically a far-right ideology, though. It’s not synonymous with authoritarianism or totalitarianism, though those terms overlap.
This is what I wanted to express. Thank you for making the effort to understand my post.
“He committed atrocities” is not the definition of being a Nazi. If that’s your definition, that’s non-standard and people will misunderstand your points.
That’s the nicest “stop making shit up motherfucker” I’ve seen
Nazis weren’t socialist. They picked the title to muddy the water on their actual position. They killed socialists and communists first.
Check the 25-point program of the NSDAP. They definitely had socialist points like
We demand nationalization of all businesses which have been up to the present formed into companies (trusts).
and
We demand that the profits from wholesale trade shall be shared out.
But yeah, once they gained their dictatorship they were more focused on nationalism and killing those they didn’t like.
https://www.hmd.org.uk/resource/first-they-came-by-pastor-martin-niemoller/
How do so many people get this wrong?
They abused socialist ideas to rise to power, as I have written in my initial post. How did I exactly “get that wrong”?
Look up Gregor Strasser, Hitler’s right hand until sometime in the early 1930s and then tell me that guy was not a socialist. Which is probably why he got killed during the Night of Long Knives.
Also look at the poem. Stalin was a communist, so he would have been killed even before the socialists. Saying Stalin was “not too far off from a Nazi” is still something that is in need to be explained lol
oh wow my first “nazis were socialists” post on lemmy. [bender taking photo “neat”] Place is getting big. I mean that’s how you know you made it to the big leagues.
Read the sentence right after the first. Context is important.
I enjoyed the Futurama reference tho.
Just like North Korea is democratic. “It’s right there in the name! The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea!” /s, for the stupid.
The problem is you think anyone to the right of Stalin is a Nazi.
Another problem might be thinking that Stalin and Hitler were so very far from each other. They were not.
I have a buddy who is right leaning in several areas. He’s not a Nazi. Not fash.
Like, ok, he’s not super comfortable about trans people which is disappointing but we talked about how outlawing treatment is fucked and he is agrees.
He is all for socialized healthcare. Less into socializing other stuff. And he is pro-2A like me, who is a lefty as in pro-labor, anti-bigotry, social democrat, ACAB, etc.
We talk about politics all the time. And we can see each other’s point of view. Because we talk in person. And we respect each other.
Online with all the trolls and shit especially in this kind of brief social media format, political discourse usually shits the bed and rolls around in it too.
Anyway the folks I consider fascists are the ones who think in social hierarchy instead of equality and think certain identities are below them and want to “put those folks back in their place,” by law or force. T
hey are the ones who favor authoritarianism over democracy and a return to some fake ideal before the civil rights era, before sexual revolution, feminism, women’s suffrage, or in some cases emancipation. They’re people who still praise Trump and DeSantis for the ways they hurt people not like them.
Some of us know what fascism actually means.
Does he still vote in conservatives?
This is the major point that many seem to miss
If they still vote for the GOP they’re endorsing facism, racism and a few other -ism’s and -phobias.
That can’t be reconciled with a good person. If they vote for the GOP I can’t see them as a good person, because they are actively voting against the rights of people like myself.
Yeah I know way too many right leaning people who I wouldn’t consider fascist based purely on their political views, but they support right wing politicians who are currently getting way too comfy with fascists
Yeah, my neighbor is pro choice, not religious, and still voted for trump twice. Didn’t find out until she refused to get vaccinated while in the Navy.
Centralization of power is bad in any economic system. That is one way in which both sides are the same. Which style of dictator would you prefer?
the folks I consider fascists are the ones who think in social hierarchy instead of equality and think certain identities are below them and want to “put those folks back in their place,” by law or force.
So like, the people who aren’t “super comfortable” with trans people?
But fascism isn’t about what individual people decide to “consider” it to be. It’s a real thing. It has a definition. Idk when we got to this point where reality is debatable, but it may be the only thing that we could stand to go backwards on as a society.
Go back to where you came from redditor. No one wants you here and your smooth brained “le epic trolling XD” is just kind of sad and brings down the mood.
Block me, then.
Good idea.
Right of…Stalin? Yes. Of course he does. Was this a joke?
Nobody tell them about the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
I remember when I thought the USSR was communist - simpler times… simpler me - then I picked up a dictionary.
Are centrists and independents lumped together? I call myself an independent because I’m tired of the bs of both sides. Both sides do have great things to offer, and dumbasses at the same time. But, for clarity, I don’t take a middle ground stance on most things, I have varied opinions that bounce from side to side.
“Both sides have great things to offer” is a bad take when one side is openly courting Nazis.
You can’t make generalizations about entire groups of people. That’s very counterproductive. Yes, some people on that side are with the Nazis and they rightly deserve to eat shit. Not everyone who is conservative or right wing or whatever is an asshole shit head nazi sympathizer. Grow up.
Not necessarily. An independent just doesnt side with a party (not to be confused with the independant party). An independant can have some slight preference to a side but it doesnt necessarily guarantee said side would get a vote.
That’s what I was thinking, but then I didn’t really know how to categorize centrism. I feel like they’re pretty similar, but have to have some sort of distinction. I suppose I must consult the Google.
I think independent should just mean “not affiliated with a party.”
Which it does. In most parts of the world. Also I’ve seen right party(Yabloko) nominate left candidate, and I’ve seen literal communist party nominate right candidate. Buuuut all those candidates are anti-Putin, so it doesn’t count.
I have varied opinions that bounce from side to side.
Ah yes, the “ping-pong” side… /jk
You have varied opinions because the “sides” are fake, they’re made up from opinions on dozens of different axes pre-packaged for easy vote collection.
100%
On Lemmy, you will absolutely be seen as “the other side” by many extreme left folks when you broadcast this.
I’m also independent, though I lean a lot more left than right in the US system. This said, there a lot of far-left extremists here on Lemmy…
I’m over here gunning for something resembling democratic socialism, and 5/6 comments around me want to weaponize the prolitareat and burn society down so they can some-crazy-how rebuild the socialist utopia from Star Trek overnight.
“Both sides” are absolutely not the same… But they are both pretty delusional when you get into their most extreme examples. They both think they know exactly what’s best for everyone (just like the original meme that started this thread clearly exhibits.)
I’m right there with you, honestly.
It’s very possibel that there’s just legitimate nuance to those policies and criticisms that you may have interpreted as prescriptive rather than descriptive.
Independence is a position with respect to parties, not political opinions.
tbf to centrists at least they aren’t convinced they are right about everything. People with strong views get blinded by their ideology.
