I can’t believe how many shitlibs there are in here, using this opportunity to guilt people with an actual conscience into voting for this piece of shit as if he has some sort of moral high ground.
What is the lesser evil when both the DNC and the GOP work directly for the exact same military industrial complex?
The real villain here is the system that makes any party outside of the two party system completely irrelevant: first-past-the-post.
We have two Republican parties. One of them just so happens to pretend better at being inclusive…but they secretly also wish that the poor could be burned to fuel their mega-yachts.
If they’re both equally evil internationally and mostly equally evil domestically, am I allowed to vote for who is less likely to remove more human rights from women and trans people?
I would never tell anyone that they should vote, I understand people’s reasons for not doing it. Selfishly, I’m going to give myself the best chance of having access to life saving health care until I’m no longer of child bearing age.
In terms of federal representatives, that’s rather like a poor white German supporting the Strassers.
If Hitler had actually held an election and the only options were him or a Strasser party, I don’t think it would be immoral to vote for the Strassers. But I also don’t think it would be a moral obligation if you had no reason to believe they would stop the Holocaust.
A vote for Hindenburg was indeed a vote for Hitler, so I think the moral is that caping for a lesser evil instead of trying to build good (and those two things are normally opposed) is not a constructive behavior. I couldn’t give less of a shit who you personally vote for, that’s the consumer-lifestyle version of political engagement. I do care somewhat what you advocate for, because promoting the lesser evil is still promoting evil over good (using the overly moralistic phrasing of the adage).
Withholding support from Nazis (on any substantial level) is plainly the better option if you want to not need to keep choosing between two Nazis.
A vote for Hindenburg was indeed a vote for Hitler
How so? Hindenburg was Hitler’s biggest political adversary and refused to pronounce Hitler chancellor until 2 consecutive elections failed.
The 1932 election had a communist option, it’s unlikely that there will be one on my ballot.
We’re not going to overthrow fascism in America at the voting booth. I’m not trying to convince anyone to vote for Biden, that’s his job and he’s not doing it very well. I’m also not going to shame anyone for doing something easy like voting in the hopes that it makes them a tiny bit safer.
I would shame someone if they thought that voting democrat is a step towards bringing about positive change or parroted some bullshit about how we can get more concessions from Democrats than Republicans. If voting is the extent of your political engagement, you aren’t opposing fascism.
Of course! I’m just standing up to speak my mind. We all are allowed to vote exactly as we see fit. I live in MA where I have the opportunity to vote with my conscience, but in a place like AL, SC, or KY, my strategy wouldn’t be helpful to those groups of people.
The two party system makes democracy in the US an absolute sham.
It’s a bipolar world buddy and your mind and body is sport for the hunters lol
I do not think its “both are Republicans”, but both are centre-right neoliberal capitalist parties. I like to call them two wings of US Nazi Eagle.
Neoliberals have a very basic set of beliefs, like “rich=successful”, “leech and ignore the poor”, “capitalise on anything possible”, “be a both sides weasel” and so on.
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What is the lesser evil when both the DNC and the GOP work directly for the exact same military industrial complex?
If you can have that plus corrupt democracy in America or that plus outright fascism in America, I’m not seeing how the choice is difficult.
This is nonsense. MAGA is a fascist movement. Don’t let both being neo-liberal blind you.
Neoliberalism is exactly the economic policies of fascism. Just because they have “civility” aesthetics doesn’t change that
This is your feeling, no fact.
It is a fact that the economic policies of Nazi Germany were mass privatization and public-private partnerships, both of which are the hallmarks of neoliberal policy. Your denial of this is factless. Not that it matters to you, because you don’t care about facts. You’re just an empty headed smuglord with Facts and Logic™ aesthetics
Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
To me, it sounds a whole lot like both Biden AND Trump can be considered fascists….especially with this idea of secret military aid to Israel that I’m reacting to here.
Looking at it from an economic definition perspective though Biden represents the financial bourgeoisie and Trump represents more industrial bourgeoisie
I’d actually argue that Trump comes from the real estate bourgeoisie but I agree on the Biden characterization. Biden never saw an MBNA donor contribution that he didn’t love (like in 2008 when he sold all future generations out for a $250,000 payout from MBNA).
I just don’t see how real estate wealth translates to industry. In general, many of Trump’s areas don’t fully align with the Republican establishment who, in my observation, generally are from real estate, energy, and industry as you mentioned.
Thinking about it more, it seems like real estate has a lot of overlap in both parties.
High fixed capital
Trump obviously comes from real estate, but his current money-making on a direct level is decidedly media-driven. The question is who gives him money and who benefits from his policy, and I think the answer is that he has a relatively larger amount of support from the petite bourgeois.
Yeah that’s true. They found a cash cow in him, though I’d still consider him an outsider (especially after his political capital has been used up).
And yet the United States continues to slide into fascism despite having elected Biden. What horrific Trump era policies did the Democrats even bother to repeal after they won in 2020 and held both the senate and the house?
They are still funding the construction of border wall segments. They never repealed the Republican tax cuts. They have done nothing about the concentration camps on the southern border for fuck’s sake. They never codified Roe v. Wade, we literally lost the right to abortions while Biden was in office. They could have stacked the supreme court but they didn’t.
The Democrats and the Republicans form an obfuscated one party system in the US. Republican leadership aggressively ramps up the oppression of marginalized people, then Democratic leadership does nothing to restore our rights nor proactively prevent the same thing from happening again. Instead they just use their time in office to suck all of the energy out of people’s movements that could actually effect change.
And much more importantly than all of that, Republicans and Democrats are virtually identically evil when it comes to foreign policy. When the US is dropping bombs on you and destroying your country, you’ll tend not to care whether it was a Red MAGA or Blue MAGA administration pulling the trigger.
In some specific cases it might be worthwhile to vote for Democrats in local elections where there exists much more leeway for politicians to stray from the party line, but voting for them in national elections is just lending your voice to legitimizing their bullshit good cop/bad cop routine they play with the Republicans.
Hear hear!!! My sentiments exactly! Thanks for putting it into words better than I could have.
Yes, that is a feature of democratic systems. Parties want to get voted in. So they bend their programs to achieve that goal. I live in Germany and here all parties are leaning further and further to the right, since the AfD (nationalist-conservative, some party members Neo-nazi) party is gaining in almost every poll.
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If all that was at play here was mere democracy, we’d have an M4A candidate. The population is solidly to the left of either party on the majority of issues, but they get no voice because liberal democracy is an exercise in choosing between the options that capitalists have picked for you.
Your bubble is.
This is much less snappy than it is grammatically ambiguous.
Let me rephrase: “Your echochamber is”
Both are fascist, the only difference is where the fascism is pointed. That’s why you’ll see a lot of fake leftists support Biden, because they don’t care about the world all they care about are themselves.
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Your definition of fascism is hilariously wrong
i can’t see any of them, which means a lot of them must have been banned already from hexbear lol lmao
8 out of a total of 165 comments remain.
Went and checked the lemmy.ml version of the thread, and they sure weren’t lying about the shitlibs.
Glory to the moderators
Maybe I should switch to hexbear. I feel like I’m on 2016 Twitter, arguing with Neera Tanden’s astroturfing PPI team and they’re trying to brainwash other leftists to think that Single Payer is somehow bad.
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The one that isn’t taking away trans rights, making abortion illegal, and saying the last election was stolen, seems like the lesser evil actually. I can agree that I think our parties would be slightly better if first past the post was changed to allow for multiple parties, but i think it’s ridiculous to say both parties are currently the same. Edit: As I responded to thecrotch, I disagree with the assertion that the Dem party is evil. Flawed? sure, our 2 party system will only allow for flawed parties, but to say their evil is downright showing ignorance of US politics or disinformation given the examples that I gave.
They don’t have to be the same to both suck. The lesser evil is, by definition, evil.
You’re right, what I should have also added to my post was that, I disagree with the assertion that the Dem party is evil. Flawed? sure, our 2 party system will only allow for flawed parties, but to say their evil is downright showing ignorance or disinformation for the examples that I gave.
Democrats voted for Afghanistan, Iraq, the Patriot act, and countless other evil legislation. They’re absolutely evil. So they’re less evil than the Republicans, so what? Should I give them a cookie?
No, but you should still vote for them. What else can you do? Vote independent? Change the world?
My state is reliably going to be won by the same party no matter what I do, and that party is going to get 100% of our electoral votes no matter what I do. So I vote third party, because if they can get 20% of the popular vote they get to be in the debates next time around. Living in a locked down state, it’s the only way my vote can possibly have a chance of making any difference.
You’re like 20 years behind, catch up. Give them a cookie? Give them your vote. The alternative is republicans who RIGHT NOW, IN THIS YEAR are attempting to restrict abortions, deny the elections, restrict lgbt+ rights. Democrats are fighting against that. But yeah you’re right maybe split you’re vote because both sides “are the same”.
I didn’t say they’re the same. They don’t have to be the same to both suck. Fuck you for telling me how to vote. You got a lot of nerve.
The person you’re responding to isn’t wrong, but you do whatever you feel is right.
But less evil.
Also by definition.
Who the fuck wants more evil?
Fine, vote your conscience. I was replying to a guy who said Democrats aren’t evil. That guy is wrong. Less evil doesn’t mean not evil.
And your argument is that someone already called them evil.
My argument is that they are evil. I made that argument to someone who said that they are not evil. Do you have a point?
Restating the conclusion is not what constitutes an argument.
Not to people overseas. There’s no difference between being indiscriminately murdered by a Republican or a Democrat to the people dying.
Democrats aren’t getting people killed, Republicans are by not allowing women to get medically necessary abortions. To people over seas, seeinh one group deny the existence of covid, make abortions illegal, and passing laws restricting lgbt+ peoples rights is obviously the evil one.
Democrats aren’t getting people killed
What do you think starting wars in the middle east does? Or do you not consider those people to be human.
I’m sure that the people in Syria who are being bombed and the people in Palestine who are being bombed by Israel using US dollars really care about our domestic politics as they watch their families get blown to shreds.
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So called “free speech” liberals when someone is mean to them.
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Calling out libshit isn’t spewing hate and vitriol, thin-skinned cracker. If you want to be passively fascist without any pushback, go back to reddit. Or better yet, take this as an opportunity to grow as a person and realize that your world view is not only unpopular, it’s also evil.
You don’t get to suppress ideas that threaten your ego, that’s not how things work here.
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I’ll give you a month before you’re back to normal. Everyone takes time to detox from that shitty website.
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You can instantly spot the pro-fascist pro-Russia tankies by this single word. And the comments just ooze peak toxicity while trying to act like some moral authority. They literally can’t help themselves but call names because I’m pretty sure 99% of them are actually children
I’m a tankie!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
If you care about nuance, I’m a libertarian socialist/anarcho syndicalist (Chomsky-ite) who thinks that democratic socialism MIGHT POSSIBLY lead to a more just society than the corruption extravaganza that we have. Sue me if I don’t fit the tech bro libertarian Jordan Peterson fanboi or fake leftist IT guy archetype that comprises the rest of the Lemmy population.
Nuance nonces on their way to defend nazi war criminals.
Sorry, it’s the rules. I have to post that everyone someone uses that word.
Oh no! I mean poopoo libs for those that can’t handle a little reality on neoliberalism. Ps. I’m not name calling. I’m making a point. BrooklynDad and Charlotte Clymer are examples of DNC shitlib’s from Twitter that did the exact same two party guilt trip.
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Your neoliberalism brings to Lemmy the worst toxicity from Twitter. Hold your head in shame.
I had missed being gaslighted by mature adults that also just so happened to be on the Progressive Policy Institute’s astroturfing payroll about being a horrible piece of shit if I didn’t hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils that screw their constituents in exactly the same way as the “bad guys” but do it with a smile. Go tell David Brock to transfer you to a new department.
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Did you forget that I can see your comment history? I’m going to do the right thing and block you once you read this. Please try to keep in mind that you are a supposed leftist who likes to shame other leftists who aren’t willing to compromise like you are. If you consider me toxic for pointing that out, maybe go touch some grass and sign off for a while.
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No, we have Eisenhower Republicans, and Nazis.
Fascists. Not all fascists are Nazis, but all Nazis are faschists. They’re like squares and rectangles.
I’ll grant you that.
Spineless, pathetic cowardice. I mean we already knew that about Democrats but this just indicts the entire administration as such. Israel makes no apologies for their slaughter, they just don’t give a shit, but this means that Genocide Joe and Co. KNOW this is wrong and they’ll still bend over backwards just to kill a foreigner.
Zero attempts at “harm reduction” pfff, they’re actively taking steps to make the harm (literal bombing of children) worse. I live in a swing state, so when I throw my vote away I’ll get to feel proud knowing it was worth even more. Glory to the martyrs and may “Israel” and her American dog be annihilated.
At this point, I can confidently say that Israel controls America.
Nah fam. Miss me with that nonsense. Why would a tiny nation control the US? They have influence with American interests in many ways, but control it? It makes no sense. The only position that this would make sense from is the same antisemetic cabal bullshit. A small group controls the world alright. The wealthy, most of whom are white Christians. They control things, not Jews.
Claiming that Israel controls America is kinda anti semitic (not because it’s anti Israeli or anything ofc) because it’s basically a repackaging of the whole “Jews control the government” thing.
What’s actually happening is that Israel is a US puppet state thats been given free reign and a blank check to do as much fascism as it wants as long as it keeps protecting the US’s interests in the middle east. The US is still in control, it’s just choosing that rather than exerting that control to do anything to stop Israel it’s going to give it the go ahead to do whatever the fuck it wants instead.
Not quite true. Israel gets a lot of support from the US government because it’s a useful ally.
It’s the vanguard in the coveted Middle Eastern region (lots of oil) that is incidentally hated by everyone around them so you can easily use their status to provoke proxy wars, then invade and claim plausible deniability by saying you just helped out your ally.
Plus the delicious state surveillance tools
Other way around, they’re basically a US satellite state if anything. Biden said it himself, “if there wasn’t an Israel we would have to invent one.”
Here’s a graph showing the countries that voted most closely in line with the US in the UN across the past couple decades:
The three dots behind Israel are former US Pacific Island territories that are currently US puppet states and officially give away much of their sovereignty to America under COFA. If you exclude those three, Israel aligns itself with America miles ahead of any other country.
He really does think this is his holy mission to bring about the yadda yadda biblical prophecy huh?
Which is super weird because he’s catholic and we don’t really, uh, follow the book of revelations. That weird ass prophecy is a Baptist thing
Well that’s not suspicious at all.
I don’t like this trend! War movies in 10-20 years will be boring. No Rambos, no Schwarzeneggers, no Spielberg and Tom Hanks emotional patriotism! No funny casual racism, no casual homophobia, no casual misoginy… Did Mark Hamil play a terrorist in Star Trek after all? The End of an Era. We’re gonna have to watch films about how a bribed White House politicant struggles to keep up with weapon manufacture demands while managing to convince his wife not to divorce him because she feels neglected since he’s never at home… directed by Clint Eastwood.
That’s boring. I’m out!
Star Wars.
We’re just going to get Don’t Mess With the Zohan 2 but in a ‘shoot then cry’ kind of way
I get why - congress is increasingly useless - but there’s obvious accountability problems there.
Accountability problems with funneling infinite weapons to an Apartheid settler state? No way, the US has a high degree of integrity about such things
Yeah, name 50 times we’ve ever done that specific crime!
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Honestly feeling like Trump is the lesser evil now… Genocide Joe has always been quite zealous in his support of Isntreal.
I think that’s grass-is-greener thinking and the lesson is that both the good cop and the bad cop work for the same police department.
Nah that’s dumb, Trump wouldn’t try to stop this happening, at all. And even if he tried to do something out of pure contrarianism, this isn’t something that his handlers would let him fuck up
Yeah maybe the guy who instituted a Muslim ban would be more supportive of the Palestinian people, good thought.
Okay, but imagine if Democratic Party was united against Trump in support of Palestinian people.
Without him in power to sharpen the contradictions, liberals fall into the trap of bipartisan consensus.
Consider Bernie and Fetterman’s statements. Mixed with the fact that only 17% of DNC staff signed the later asking Biden to pressure Israel to give a ounce of shit about people in Gaza.
If this was a Trump administration, we’d be ignoring what isreal is doing because we’d be fighting tooth and nail trying to protect Palestinians in America from being deported or placed into camps.
Bernie won’t even fucking endorse a ceasefire.
Here is the evidence for all the people that think Democrats are angels and Republicans are devils. Both parties are two wings of US Nazi Eagle, and both have caused wars for 232 out of the 247 years USA has existed.
Oh cool modern day Iran-Contra is gonna happen but with more genocide
Which shows you America Is ran by foreign interests.
Biden said something like: “If there was no Israel, we’d have to invent it.”
The US loves having a highly militarized, violent, totally amoral and 100% US-dependent proxy next to all those oil fields. The last thing the US wants is peace in the middle east. This is just divide-and-conquer 101.
Other way around. Israel is a us proxy state
Isntreal is not controlling USA, its the opposite. USA sees a microcosm of their own in Isntreal, sharing the exact same kind of genocide and settler colonisation, be it Native Americans or indigenous Palestinians.
Ain’t that illegal?
Genocide is illegal (I think, it’s kinda blurry for decades now). Don’t see those people concerned about it. I don’t think these people care about law. They bend it to their will, like they do with their tax-paying citizenry who vote and pay for them.
Genocide is illegal (I think, it’s kinda blurry for decades now). Don’t see those people concerned about it. I don’t think these people care about law. They bend it to their will, like they do with their tax-paying citizenry who vote and pay for them.
But during some of those conversations, managers have told staffers they should not expect to influence U.S. policy on Israel-Palestine regardless of their national security chops, according to five current and one recently departed State Department officials who talked to HuffPost.
Keep in mind, that Biden has asked for a humanitarian cease fire in Gaza. This information is like fresh of last night, so I don’t expect news agencies to catch up fast.
It looks like Biden is lagging behind public opinion on this one, but he is turning course.
What that means going forward will depend on how much aid is let in Gaza by Israel.
It’s like the war on drugs but worse. Technically the US doesn’t really have a horse in the race so to speak. I doubt that the USA, nor the oil giants across the Middle East are inclined to involve themselves in a potential paradigm shift of global politics into WW3 directly after the disaster that was Trump’s election loss and subsequent social disorder.
Personally although I feel like a one state secular, democratic solution but with multiple internal use passports would suit the whole lot of them better. If you choose to carry card X y or z you become the subject to a different set of religious rules return unique benefits. You can theoretically try to carry all three but you’re going to have a hard time computing let alone complying with all of the religious rules all the time.
If we ignore the humanitarian issue of the bombings so to speak, because war, like hell is a gift in itself by all measures, I think the fairest solution would simply be for the most stable, responsible and directly involved guy in the room - Benny boy, to pay up and fix his own shit he’s created by actually building more homes and infrastructure on both sides of the fence and giving the Palestinians a card printing system, redraw the lines on the map and let them decide their own laws, rather than kicking people out of their homes and bulldozing stuff without a plan, creating a system of displacement which realistically nobody wants, just to let the terrorists come back and make pipe bombs and other weapons from the scraps.
Hopefully someone found my verbal diarrhoea to be constructive
Biden is specifically avoiding the term “cease-fire”:
The White House has refused to call for a cease-fire but has signaled that the Israelis should consider humanitarian pauses to allow civilians to receive aid and for foreign nationals trapped on the strip to leave Gaza.
Yeah, but probably because using the term would cause major political problems for him.
Asking for a cease fire to move people out. Nothing about them being able to return to their homes or land.
Hitting the breaks on this whole mess is the first step. I will most certainly not call this a victory for just beginning.
But at least now the people in power understand that this is a problem. Versus the previous mindset of:" kill all humans, full speed ahead."
Forcing people out of their homes so that they can be occupied by Israel isn’t hitting the brakes, it’s accelerating it.
Genocide Joe knows how evil it is, and wants to continue arming the zionist entity. Monstrous bastard.
Fighting terrorists isn’t cheap
I’m still not seeing why Israel is being treated as a priority over or at least equal to Ukraine. Ukraine is up against a legitimately strong adversary using human wave tactics. Israel is dropping bombs seemingly indiscriminately on mostly civilians. Ukraine is fighting for its existence. Israel is getting revenge on its much, much weaker neighbor.
If Iran and its proxies enter the war, that might change the calculations, but that hasn’t happened yet.
Agreed. Even if Iran enters the war, it will be to stop a genocide. I don’t understand why the US is so keen to tie themselves to Netanyahu’s government.
Yeah, Iran is known as a moral beacon in the region, holding up human rights.
The only reason they would enter a war is, of course, to stop a so called genocide
US and Isntreal share the same settler colonial ideology and history. Native Americans or Palestinians, its all about genociding the “uncivilised tribal hordes” to make space for themselves.
Republicans like Israel and don’t (all) like Ukraine
And the more support Israel gets to kill those civilians the more likely sympathetic regional neighbours would be inclined to join. And rightly so. It’s genocide.
Israel is also rich as fuck with a strong military. They do not need financial support.
But politicians elsewhere need israeli support (to get voted they believe)
NSO group would like a word with you
It’s a strategic foothold in the region for the US. And “Jeebus.”
Agreed. Isreal doesn’t need help putting the boot on helpless children.
Ukraine was never about Ukraine. It was about NATO’s attempt to balkanise Russia, as said by US ex-VP Dick Cheney. It was about the attempted CIA coup during 2003 Orange protests, which failed, and another CIA attempt at 2013 Euromaidan protests, which succeeded, overthrowing sovereignty and democracy, installing US puppet, installing biochemical factories for genocide attempt against Russia, and to make more money for military weapons industry.
It was all about USA using Ukraine as a condom to fuck with Russia, and the whole NATO failed in unison.
We have already given the Ukraine over a 100b in funds. We don’t need to give them anymore. I also don’t want us to give aid to anyone.
