Shortly before opening, Casa Bonita’s new owners Matt Stone and Trey Parker decided to eliminate tipping and instead pay workers a flat wage of $30 per hour.
Now I could be wrong, but getting a an hourly wage as a restaurant worker is FAR better than relying on tips. I feel like either workers in this situation are too obsessed with tips or there’s huge context missing.
Are most restaurant workers reporting their tips as income? Maybe they’re worried about making less due to taxes even though the pay check is more consistent rather than some busy days with lots of tips vs slow days with less tips
The problem with not reporting your tips on taxes means it doesn’t show as part of your income. So if you want to rent a place that’s easily affordable but you don’t have proof of half your income you’re gonna get denied. Of course if your hourly wage is low enough it can be worth not reporting tips for the same reason. Many aid programs only help those below a ridiculously low income. I’ve been on both sides of the equation.
The bartenders I know ask for cash if possible, don’t report their tips, and then photoshop their paystubs to reflect their actual income when they apply for rentals.
That’s so based but I gotta admit I fear the IRS too much to go that far lol
Who the hell still uses pay-stubs for rental? Most places just do a background check and then pull your public W-2’s from a reported employer. That is some mad skills to be like, ‘here is my proof of employment and income, no don’t compare it to my W-2’.
Small timers who own a bunch of houses. Failsons who got daddy’s apartment but never put any work into it since it’s basically a free money machine.
A lot of boomers probably won’t know how the hell to do a background check. They can barely operate computers in the first place.
Excellent point. I wonder how it would go if there was a study comparing tipped and non-tipped income, as declared to the tax department. “Numbers show you’re clearly earning more money without tips. What’s the problem?”
Fucking 30$ an hour!? That’s amazing! That’s more than teachers make where I live…
Like, more than 30% more wow
Still not enough, but dang tbh
I feel like the media has an incentive to focus in on the voices of those who resist this change over those who benefit from it, since the tipping norm benefits the owners of the restaurant industry at large.
But by the sound of things there are more issues here than just the pay structure. The workers want a representative at top level meetings, notice ahead of time when policies change, and reinstatement of people who were fired due to contract disputes. I’m not surprised at all that a couple libertarians with no experience running a restaurant would buy one and immediately run into a bunch of avoidable issues.
I don’t go out much, but when I do, I tip. I know the pay is shit, so I’ll do my part until wages get better. If I knew a place had the option of getting 30/ hour and wanted to go back to tips, I sure wouldn’t.
Yes, the workers are wrong. This is a better way to do it. Unfortunately, many waiters really do come out ahead with tipping, especially those working at higher end restaurants, conventionally attractive by euro standards, or just really good people skills, so they argue tipping is good actually. It benefits some individually, but collectively a lot do not end up with more money this way. It’s part of the whole pull yourself up by your bootstraps ideology - yes you theoretically could do better with tipping, but how many do, compared with the many who don’t? But of course restaurantbusinessonline would prefer business owners still be paying less than minimum wage, so they find those workers whose interests for whatever reason line up with theirs.
It’s just a dog shit way to handle employee compensation. Your one job as an employer is to manage your employees and pay them what you think they’re “worth” in the labor marketplace. Do your fucking job.
It’s like when Walmart started phasing out cashiers and forcing you to do self checkout in those dinky little kiosks. Why pay someone to do a job if you can get the customer to do it for free?
Yes, the workers are wrong.
This is a better way to do it. Unfortunately, many waiters really do come out ahead with tipping, especially those working at higher end restaurants, conventionally attractive by euro standards, or just really good people skills, so they argue tipping is good actually. It benefits some individually, but collectively a lot do not end up with more money this way. So yes, alot of waiters start off making less money. The current system while deeply flawed allows people to have careers in waiting where they can start making pretty low wages to making above middle income money. If they work into bar tending then they can make up to 80 an hour on a good day.
Such career tracks are things you see in logistics and trades. If you want to make a career here you can, the difference being that it offers income mobility without getting a degree making it a far more egalitarian field than most since the “meritocratic” career paths since college overwhelmingly fails poor people, people of color and first generation college students. If it doesn’t fail them then they’ll likely end up underemployed, unemployed out of their field or in so much debt that they might as well be in fast food.
It’s part of the whole pull yourself up by your bootstraps ideology - yes you theoretically could do better with tipping, but how many do, compared with the many who don’t? But of course restaurantbusinessonline would prefer business owners still be paying less than minimum wage, so they find those workers whose interests for whatever reason line up with theirs.
the real solution then isn’t abolishing tipping, its abolishing the tipped wage and retaining tipping
I don’t understand how one can argue minimum wage + tipping is a better system than paying someone a living wage. There are very few and quickly decreasing places in the us where minimum wage = a living wage, and further the tipping system is often used by restaurant owners to justify paying less than minimum wage. So people’s incomes are wholly dependent upon their unique set of circumstances and attributes and how well they can milk money out of customers. It individualizes restaurant work, since suddenly you’re not making a low wage because your boss refuses to pay you, but because of your own failures in convincing your customers to give you more money.
Further this ignores two things. 1) according to the story they instituted this system because people weren’t tipping. Tipping as a system won’t work if individuals refuse to tip. 2) the crux of the issue seems more to be that they were promised full time work, but work is currently part time 3 days a week with no plans in place to open for full service, not the tipping.
I’m not against people working their way up to higher wages, nor am I against people getting payed differently based on seniority or something. But the way this story is written suggests a desire to return to a minimum wage+tipping system, which I am against. However reading the rest of the story and the workers’ petition, I’m not even sure that’s what the workers are suggesting.
Lol if you’re making $30 an hour in fucking Colorado, you’re getting jack shit from me besides paying the bill.
Dear FOH if you want me to support tips, tip out BOH.
Thanks, came here to say it.
If I had to guess, it’s missing context or straight up false reporting.
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it is definitely missing context. the restaurant has had multiple false openings so it’s not at full capacity. workers that were promised consistent steady work are not getting steady hours
Extremely sus that this article doesn’t report on the number of signatures on the petition.
I mean yeah? With the crazy high tipping percentages that are normalised in the USA (20% is a good tip? In South Africa the standard tip is 10%) when combined with how expensive restaurant food and drinks are, provided with the fact that tips are mostly cash so you can avoid paying tax (someone else in the comments has already mentioned photoshopping pay slips), good waiters and waitresses could easily make more than 30 an hour during peak hour shifts, and back themselves to make up the difference there vs earning a flat rate during both peak shifts and midweek slow shifts.
You can only skirt taxes if you aren’t pooling and splitting tips (ie front of house are scabbing)
i’ve never worked a tipped job, but from the people i know who have, this is probably about what they were making already except more consistent and maybe slightly less depending on how pricey the food is
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It really just depends on where you work and your demographics.
Young black male in rural city? Lol you’re fucked. Attractive young white woman in dense urban center at trendy expensive restaurant? Absolutely crazy amounts of money.
I’ve known people who graduate, get a job in the field they wanted and then quit and went back to serving because they fell into the right demos and location.
The tipping floor is the lowest it can possibly be but the ceiling is extremely high. And it’s largely based off unfair reasons.
Ex ept if they’re paid in tips they don’t have to pay taxes on any of it if they don’t need to report it.
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Taxes depend on states in the US. Im pretty sure that in california all tips arent taxed. No idea for colorado though.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news but if you live in the US you must pay income tax and report on all tips or you are doing tax evasion. If you are photoshopping pay stubs you already know this to be true (don’t do this the employer sends a copy to the IRS you will go to jail)
Most restaurants don’t report their tips either, it’s good to find out at a new place whether you can cheat or not
If the restaurant isn’t reporting tips, they likely aren’t fairly pooling and splitting them either. If they’re willing to cheat the feds, they’re willing to cheat the dishwasher
The owner doesn’t split or pool tips pretty much ever.
Adding on to the chorus telling you that legally speaking, tips are required to be reported as income and taxed.
Now of course, many people don’t report their tips in spite of this requirement, and because of the nature of cash tips it is very rare that this requirement is ever enforced. So it is very unlikely that you will face any legal repercussions for not reporting your tips. However, choosing not to report can have other effects besides legal action. For example, if you lose your job and try to claim unemployment, the unemployment benefits you receive is usually calculated as a percentage of your average income from your most recent period of employment. So if you under-report your tips, that can have a significant impact on the unemployment benefits you are entitled to.
Right and its illegal to go over the speed limit.
CC tips are absolutely taxed (restaurant is on the hook for this). Cash tips should be.
All tips are supposed to be taxed. That being said, every single one of my friends that have worked jobs that are primary tip-based would mention that they would hide some amount of the cash tips. This was to avoid taxes, and for the most part my friends would claim most of their cash tips while mentioning that if they were having a bad week or day they might hide more. I have been in restaurant and other service jobs which I was paid normal rates due to being either technically BOH or otherwise not a tip expected job. So in those cases I wouldn’t claim a random tip I would get since it was never more than $20. Also the servers didn’t have to split anything with BOH since BOH was paid at least $6.50/hr back in 2003 (which was like a dollar or so more than state/national min wage) and the servers were something like $2/hr or so with tips being of course the main source. Though they would give some to those of us that bused their tables quickly on busy nights to get them ready for a new person/group.
But I think that tipping should be completely something that is to show that the worker was in your opinion just worth more than whatever they made the time you interacted with them. As the idea of a tip (IMO) is just that, a more personal sign of appreciation for their labour even if they are being paid like any other worker. And yes, I believe that holds true for stuff like strippers or any other currently legal sex worker (and same goes for prostitutes if made legal and officially taxed).
I am from NC, and not the most high income areas while not being in the lowest either. But $30/hr is almost twice what I make in my non-tip-based job (I am at a pay-cap of $19.48/hr). That sounds like shit I wouldn’t start to see unless I climbed the latter a lot to get (and completely stop doing the actual stuff I am any good at). So I am guessing $30/hr where they are planning to open must be like getting less than $10/hr where I am when adjusting for living costs and all that. Otherwise it seems like a real strange hill to die on when it isn’t like the people coming into the place won’t still do it if the servers are just doing really well. Idk. I stand with the workers no matter what they do, but if they lose the $30/hr for tips-based and the people that come in do what so many do (which is just lord over the worker). Then it would be a real motherfucker.
Now I could be wrong, but getting a an hourly wage as a restaurant worker is FAR better than relying on tips. I feel like either workers in this situation are too obsessed with tips or there’s huge context missing.
This is cunsoomer propoganda. The tipped wage allows unskilled workers to acheive the heights of middle income without getting college degrees and gives them a career path in retail, plus it makes excel spreadsheet workers and boomers pay extra.
You can make the arguement that “well actually that 20% should me baked into the price and that should go to the worker”. Which is possibly the most delusional arguement a person could possible make. How many times have companies raised prices on their goods 20% due to increasing labor costs and how many of those companies actually have given that full amount to workers? Approximately 0.
If you abolished tipped wages tommorow and told bosses to raise prices to compensate they’d turn their workers into fast food workers and pocket the extra 20%. That’s the fate of all non-tipped work.
If abolishing tipped labor for resturants was so good for workers then ask yourselves why all the fast food resturants with much higher profit margins and much leaner workforces get paid way, waaaaaay less than waiters.
The real communist politic is to keep the tip and abolish the tipped wage. If that makes restaurants more expensive than good, if a service can’t be provided without poverty wages than it shouldn’t exist.
countries without tipping looking at this post likeremoved by mod
Countries that don’t have tipping tend to have sectoral collective bargaining, which (at least ideally) ensures a relatively good wage for all workers in a sector. If there are levels of unionisation/worker organisation that can make this a reality in the US, then go for it. However, in the absence of that Janny’s post makes a lot of useful points about the potential effects of a capital-led transition to tip-free work. It strikes me like almost no one in this thread has even read the article that we’re all notionally discussing. I admit I don’t know what the positions of the presumably numerous US restaurant workers’ unions are on these questions, but the article states that these workers were being advised by one and wanted to retain a pooled-tip structure
the specifics of the situation are both unique and dated. we aren’t really talking about a restaurant, it’s a low-rent dinner theater/mexploitation gallery that serves food. purchased, refurbished, & re-organized by celebrities with an infinite money tap. so trying to plug it into a general debate around tipping is pretty awkward at best, nevermind these workers are making above-average wages on unusual schedules (the latter of which was my by impression, the actual issue)
but let’s not let that distract us–yes, you’re correct, collective bargaining is what makes and keeps wages higher than capitalists like. but while the US doesn’t have that, we must recognize that tipping is a tool of the bourgeoisie to offload (and make optional) the compensation of labor. it also helps police labor through the divisions it causes between workers (i.e. this entire thread). the reality is that if Janny’s half-measure proposal went through, customers would stop tipping anyway, and eventually this group of workers would have the exact same imperatives and options as anybody else. and like, it’s not like tipping is illegal places its not customary, you can give a french waiter extra money if you want.
Yeah, that’s fair, I don’t have much of a grasp of the specifics of the case beyond the article. And I agree that tipping is worse than non-tipped waged work under sectoral collective bargaining and that we should have the latter as our goal as long as we remain within a capitalist framework. Indeed, from my experience, in a lot of places where tipping isn’t customary and they do have sectoral bargaining waiters take it as something of an affront to be tipped. French waiters are often somewhat offended by attempts to tip them - precisely because it is perceived as an attack on their dignity as workers.
But I still think that we should be careful in uncritically supporting the abolition of tipping outside of circumstances in which a sector is sufficiently well-organised. We’ve seen so many examples in the last few decades in which often positive reforms, which were initially demanded by workers, have been co-opted by capital to undermine conditions and wages precisely because those reforms took place in a general context where workers haven’t been well-organised enough to defend themselves against the attacks of capital. The demand for flexible working practices/hours in the 1970s and 80s is a good example of this process, where what should have been positive reforms have had extremely mixed results in that they’ve played a large role in creating conditions of casualisation and mass under-employment. In many sectors, ‘flexible working’ has meant flexibility to work sporadic hours whenever your boss decides with the knowledge that if you’re not sufficiently flexible to their demands you’ll stop being given work.
I also do think that the ‘it divides the working class’ argument is the weakest one, because what it really ends up expressing is a consoomer mindset that as communists/anarchists we should challenge rather than accept. While I’m sure that our comrades on here are arguing in good faith and have decent reasons for wanting to abolish tipping, this isn’t representative of the debate overall. Most of the discourse I’ve encountered on the topic has been on reddit and is predictably treat-brained. The framing is almost always primarily ‘tipping is too expensive!’ with questions about the conditions/rights of workers relegated to a secondary position that often feels tacked on to cover that the primary demand is ‘I want things to be cheaper even if that means workers are paid less’. You can say this is unfair, but the last 40 years of economic reform have shown us that people who identify more strongly with being a consumer than a worker will buy the cheaper commodity made by workers labouring under worse conditions and less pay 99 times out of 100
‘it divides the working class’ argument is the weakest one
thats not what anyone in this thread was talking about. competition between workers in the same joint for tips and inequities of which employees receive them is how tipping disciplines labor. nothing to do with the customers. the enmity between foh and boh staff repeatedly brought up itt is instructive
but your concern about ‘capitalist managed’ transition away from tips is a fantasy. they don’t want to get rid of them! they discipline labor and reduce its compensation, we’re living capital’s dream arrangement. actually operating businesses that dont do tips are isolated ideological/niche cases, not a front for some big project to crush labor power. this south park place’s stance is either from the owners being libertarians or some specific peculiarity of the business
Ah okay, yeah, I misunderstood. Thanks for clarifying
Instead of negotiation with the employer where you hold some actual labour power, you must subject yourself to the whims of each and every customer
spreadsheet workers and boomers
Spreadsheet workers make like $40k a year, less than $30 an hour. Many boomers are poor, working class and have been exploited their whole lives viciously (not the majority obviously, but you’re being callous). Why are you trying to pit workers against each other and destroy solidarity by saying some deserve more consideration than others? Really not digging the condescending arrogance of your tone and anti-worker solidarity position
also it’s a pain in the ass being nickle and dimed all the time.
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workers who aren’t working class
Sorry, just used the wrong terminology. I thought professional managerial class was different from working class.
“spreadsheet workers” aren’t PMC to begin with - the PMC refers to the stratum that manage flows of capital. people who write spreadsheets are paid bottom-barrel wages to track capital (in various forms) but they generally have no control over it.
Lol I didn’t know these terms were so stringent. I thought somebody just made up spreadsheet workers, which could definitely include most pmc people I know based on the description alone.
“spreadsheet workers” are working class. Working class is not a cultural affect, it’s merely being proletarian which all wage workers who don’t own the means of production or make passive income are.
If you think working class only means a guy with a hard hat or restaurant worker, I have to sadly break the news you have internalized chud propaganda. Many of these types are petty bourgies and not working class as well, as they own their own contracting business or own part of the restaurant or whatever.
“Middle class” insofar as it exists meaningfully in a Marxist sense, is a mixed prol-petty bourgie class with interests in both increasing wages and increasing housing prices, stock market prices, company profits, etc. It, again, is not a cultural affect describing people who sit down while they work.
My bad. I meant people who make a comfortable living but don’t own the means of production or make passive income. Nothing to do with chud propaganda, just a didn’t use the right term.
Ehhhh, I’ve worked back of house forever, where I currently am we get a cut of sales thst more or less equals out to the same as server’s tips, $30 would math out to a higher wage, so I’d tske that deal. Also most places back of house gets like 10 percent of the tips and it’s like $40 a week and just above minimum wage pay, so I have found it pretty hard as someone who actually makes the food to be pro tip cause higher server wages can be leveraged for higher cook wages.
When I worked delivery before the app era (think Uber eats but before it existed) I knew the people (almost exclusively women) that packed the to-go orders. At some places, ones that didn’t get a lot of to-go orders, the MOD did the packing and that was fine. At others, it was a heavily politicked position. No one wanted to be the person that did these, as it was untipped, so everyone was against each other. At Texas Roadhouse specifically, it was the newest people and the subtext of more than one overheard conversation implied that those with a smaller chest had little-to-no chance of getting “on the floor” without “being cool and hanging out with (one of) the managers outside work”. I don’t want to read overmuch into that, but it made my skin crawl. I know there was no solidarity there though, the only people that got tipped out were the host and bartender, and those were essentially bribes.
America delenda est.
At least where I am things have gotten better regarding tipping BOH and pooling tips. Last place I worked BOH got equal share in the tips and this one we get a percentage of the sales that averages out to around what servers get for tips.
plus it makes excel spreadsheet workers and boomers pay extra.
source: vibes
The tipped wage allows unskilled workers
It allows conventionally attractive young white unskilled workers in dense enough areas to do that.
The servers have a genuine problem:
Restaurants have peak and off peak hours. Maybe between 5pm and 2am there’s two hours of dinner rush, a little break and an hour or so of late night pop. Maybe there’s five or six servers, a bartender and someone running seating or expo. Another poster brought up four tables an hour with $20 per table. Let’s say you got that relatively small section and that average tip works out. You come in at five, dinner picks up between six and eight, turn down the cut after dinner and there’s a late night pop at ten then you take a cut. That’s $240 for five hours of work.
Same situation but no tips and $30 hourly: you get $150 for that five hours and you draw the short straw and still take a post pop cut! What about when you end up taking the after dinner cut? That’s $90 bucks for working only the hard parts of the shift!
Let’s say you fight off the other servers and stay till two with the bartender: you get $270 but you have to do the closing work, you just worked nine hours and everything’s closed when you get out.
These just sounds like different degrees of very competitive remuneration. I’m not saying servers there don’t deserve more, but it sounds like it’s kinda in the same way that everyone deserves more. I will say this post pop cut business sounds like a contrivance to mask poor regulatory or work management practices, but the hourly rate isn’t really the problem there
Restaurants make cuts because after the dinner rush there’s no work for servers. No need for five people on the floor when you only got three tables. Even if someone got $30 an hour for their side work that’s max $30 extra if they did everyone’s.
You could have a server who throws on a hoodie and apron and starts doing prep work after their rush, but uhh, no one wants to do that.
Is this in the US? Here as server you need an RSA certificate, equivalent to (the minimum) bartending qualification. So you’d have a 1030-3 shift, and someone rostered 3-8 that relieves the person behind the bar during the quiet afternoon period. If you wanted more money, you’d pick up splits.
I think the primary difference in the equivalent role between our countries is actually a contrivance of the tipping situation. Ive worked in hospitality in Aus, NZ and a short stint in Canada, and even with the existence of tipping culture in Canada, all roles I worked in were multifunction. I haven’t worked in the US but there it seems like servers there ONLY serve, because 100% of the KPI’s that impact on their remuneration are only related to serving. For that kind of arrangement here you’d be considered an independent subcontractor, not an employee. These sorts of strategies you described to snatch extra remuneration seems like the relationship of different collaborating capitalist entities with different objectives. It seems like a lot less hassle to work for someone when your objectives are somewhat aligned. At least your respective profit motives don’t oppose eachother that way. If they want to profit off of the excess value of your labour, making the situation reliably equitable to you in order to keep you in that situation is generally in their interest
Yes, since the post is about a restaurant in the us I only commented about serving in the us.
I’m not sure where you’d put the cutoff for multifunction, servers in the us are expected to do a bunch of side work that could include putting away glassware, marrying and refilling condiments, making silverware and napkin setups, etc. servers in the us will famously only do their side work until they’re tipped out.
Part of the point I’m trying to make is that there’s an expectation of how things will be in a serving job and people set their expectations for the way they’ll be paid based on that. Serving in the us is already one of those jobs that have you running a checkbook out of a wad of cash anyway, so it’s not like someone looking at serving jobs is gonna do the slot machine eyes coming up dollar signs when they hear $30 an hour.
Like you’re saying, without significant changes to the way servers are scheduled, paid, work is broken up and, as a consequence, the way servers live and plan their lives, changes that allow for hourly pay will be face an uphill battle both with the workers and management.
I see your point, I disagree though about the perceived value of the competitive hourly wage when you remove the tipping context. It’s a fairly normal occurence here for example to miss your hospitality worker family member at the holiday reunion because they’re off working - not out of obligation, but because those shifts attract penalty rates by law so they’re in high demand. The same is true to a lesser extent on weekends & after 7pm daily. It does mean that places close earlier at night and pay close attention when budgeting payroll though
Even with tipping some of the slower holiday shifts here are attractive to people. I used to work with a bartender who would always pick up the Christmas night shift. The volume was dogshit but with him and one person in the kitchen they’d clear tips like it was Friday.
Restaurants have peak and off peak hours. Maybe between 5pm and 2am there’s two hours of dinner rush, a little break and an hour or so of late night pop.
Servers shouldn’t make less if the restaurant is not as full. And if they really would be making more than $30 an hour on a tip model, the real problem is that the restaurant is pocketing the difference and not actually giving servers a fair cut of profits in hourly wages.
Let’s say you fight off the other servers
The “individualism” mindset of capitalism pits workers against each other, you shouldn’t need to compete with coworkers for fair wages.
Their time used opposing hourly wages would be much better used getting the restaurant to increase their hourly rate. As long as servers are not making as much hourly as they would tipped, the restaurant is holding out on you, taking more than their fair share.
I agree that servers shouldn’t be making less with an empty house. The way they handle that now is by doing shift change before the rush and making cuts to keep the staff at the right size as the night goes on.
There are problems with that approach but it lets the servers figure out how to handle everything. The only requirement ought to be tip pooling and cutting in back of house in some small way.
Idk how you run a restaurant with hourly floor staff instead of tipped.
I came in here upset to see anti-tipping discourse on my hexbear but then I saw they’re making 30/hour and if they’re not talking about cutting in BOH well… yeah not a good look. I wish I made that much.
I get where you’re coming from, but if they make more with tips shouldn’t we support them keeping tips?
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are they?
Do the workers making tips ever have any say in where the tips go? If the tips aren’t shared fairly or the BOH isn’t compensated comparatively then that is on the management, how could they be a scab in their position?
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But the article literally talks about them asking for a pooled-tip structure and that they were being supported by the union. One of the workers says that the $30 an hour is a 40% pay cut
You dont have to agree with everything they do, but Southpark is the only show that are not afraid to discuss certains subjects. Dead Children should be mandatory to watch for every us citizens.
EDIT: In view of the many responses to this post, i’d like to add that if you really think south park is a right-wing show, you’re showing your interchangeability. By that I mean that I firmly believe that people who are incapable of discussion and questioning their ideas are similar, no matter what side they’re on. I’m convinced that if you’d been born in Texas into a conservative family, you’d be parading around in a pickup truck against drag queens in schools right now. It’s simply a question of life context that makes you here now.
Lmfao nobody else was brave enough to say that Al gore was a lunatic
This is an interesting example. They actually did a whole episode where they admitted they were wrong about Al Gore 15 years ago and have been discussing climate change in different ways since. In this age where no one ever admits to being wrong about anything, I thought it was refreshing and rather brave indeed.
Oh wow they retracted one of their objectively shitty opinions a mere two decades late.
They made a retraction for their “being Trans is the same as a guy who wants to be a dolphin” episode
What about all the ones where the black character named token black reads line written by them explaining to white people why they shouldn’t feel bad about saying racial slurs?
Also pretty sure that episode was during the season where they spent the entire season calling out what the biggest problem in America was in 2016, people being too politically correct.
Boy, you really can’t get second degree can’t you? The show on n word is the more complex and intelligent take on the subject I’ve seen coming from the US. It actually explaines to white people why they should’nt use racial slurs. Read my other comment about the trans one.
No I’m not gonna read any more of your drivel Ive seen the episodes you’re either lying or a moron.
One of the N word episodes included a joke about how to get forgiveness randy had to kiss Jess Jackson’s ass because he elected himself king of black people and was just using it for personal gain and didn’t actually care about minorities.
Complex and intelligent to the 4th graders it’s targeting, which I’m hoping is who I’m talking to now.
You dont have to agree with everything they do
In this age where no one ever admits to being wrong about anything
You talk in very interesting cliches, I will simply give 0 credit to the South Park goons
“You talk in very interesting cliches, I will simply give 0 credit to the South Park goons”
This kind of intransigence seems to me to show an inability for nuance and intellectual abstraction. Personally, I think it’s this kind of attitude that has led to political cleavage and radicalization in recent years, and ultimately to the popularity of monstrous figures like Trump.
me when i see the political cleavage:
someone pulled out the thesaurus
I think right-wing propaganda, like TV shows watched by children that tell the viewer climate change isn’t real, trans people are monsters and it’s okay to use homophobic slurs, is much more heavily responsible for the rise of Trump, actually
If you think SP is right-wing progaganda, you are as intellectually deep as people who think school are full of drag-queens. You really really didn’t get the point of the episode on trans and slurs.
No you’re just carrying water for bigots.
Every one of the episodes ends with a sanctimonious lecture about how people who care are just as bad as bigots and the morally correct stance is to do whatever you want and if anybody gets offended they’re an idiot.
The Trans episode was literally “being Trans is the same as somebody who wants to be black so they’re good at basketball or a guy who wants to be a dolphin”
They never should have taken that donkey-headed opinion in the first place
Representing global warming as the Manbearpig as if it’s some imaginary threat was a bold move, but also a very dumb one.
At least they acknownledged that mistake in later episodes, but they still have a lot of reactionary takes like in the episode about plant based burgers.
Also they apologized for one of their full length episodes dedicated to shitting onnpeople who care about climate change.
They bring up anything about the episode where they said the smugness of people who care about climate change is worse than the actual effects of climate change.
Where people who wanted electric vehicles were so obsessed with sniffing their own farms it caused a storm like in the day after tomorrow.
Ah yes I forgot about that episode, it was so stupid.
interchangeability. By that I mean that I firmly believe that people who are incapable of discussion and questioning their ideas are similar, no matter what side they’re on.
when you’re too dumb to come up with a clever insult so you make up a definitionIt’s actually how it’s define in french. Maybe it doesn’t translate well in english. Do your part for equality and look it up lol. Anyway can you come up with anything else than insults? For a bunch of open-minded boys, you sure all use the same the same rhetoric as right-wing fascists.
Hey, watch your mouth or I’ll talk to the king of england and get you deported to louisiana again
“being rude to me is the same thing as fascism”
jesus christ son that doctorate is meaningless isn’t it
tbh I’m stupid but not stupid enough to spend 3600 a year for 6 years for a sentence on a CV stupid
spending tens of thousands of dollars so that when your dumb opinions get challenged you can cry about having a doctorate and being mother’s special smart boy (at 42)
By that I mean that I firmly believe that people who are incapable of discussion and questioning their ideas are similar, no matter what side they’re on.
Most of us here on hexbear were born and raised in western countries, many of us in the exact sort of conservative families you’re talking about. Yet we are all here today advocating for the most heavily demonized political positions in these countries. We’re communists and anarchists. We want a fundamentally different system.
And you think we are the ones who are “incapable of questioning ideas”? Hilarious.
I’m older than you by the way, which obviously means that I’m right and you’re wrong
Lol no the Southpark guys don’t “discuss topics” they present the center right side as objectively true and then portay any leftwing position as a loony caricature and then say “well I guess both sides have opinions” all the while relying on the audience to agree with the right. Like occasionally they will pick on the fascist right, but only when they get so outrageous you can’t not make fun of them.
Their episodes on trans people were unquestionably some of the most disgusting bits of propaganda I have ever seen, and I see a fucking ton of it.
I’m convinced that if you’d been born in Texas into a conservative family, you’d be parading around in a pickup truck against drag queens in schools right now.
So you’re saying this is cool with you? No wonder you like South Park.
You are a Rick and Morty guy except for south park, which is somehow even more embarrassing
Actually you need to have a very shitty sense of humor to appreciate South Park
Its a really fucking stupid show most of the time though
Yea who gives a fuck if they “discuss issues other wouldnt” if their take away is always the exact same, which is if you care strongly about anything one way or thenother you’re as bad as the other side and the correct approach is to do whatever you want and anybody who tries to make you feel bad about that is the real dummy.
Well, here’s a clear-cut and poorly explained opinion. Not much to help move things forward. Anyway, I disagree. Even when I don’t agree with some of the show’s ideas, their ideas are never simplistic and it has the merit of forcing me to think about why and how I disagree, which is already more than 95% of the uncompromising content you find these days.
Theres no explanation to have, its a stupid fucking show that mostly just propaganda for white libertarians
Well, as you seem to hold all the absolute truths, I’ll leave you with your certainties and continue to believe that complex subjects often have complex answers, and that the world is cruelly lacking in intellectual nuance. I also suggest you look up what propaganda really means.
South Park is for juvenile contrarians and baby brained libertarians. There nothing complex about it.
I feel like this sub is just privilege wannabes justice warriors, there’s nothing complex about all the point people are making. insults are not a valid argument.
you are defending a show with one of the most transphobic caricatures ever made on a site that is largely queer or queer-positive. i don’t know what you expect man. you have to give examples to prove your point if you want people to engage in detail, but instead you revert directly to calling your critics idiots (in the most reddit-brained passive aggressive humblebragging way possible) for simply stating their contrary opinion.
Calling anybody who points out libertarians are vapid morons “privellaged wannabee justice warriors” could be an entire season of Southpark.
Nobody is surprised the dumbshit libertarian dude thinks Southpark is clever and subversive.
It’s certainly more nuanced and intelligent than the majority of people who reply to me here and seem incapable of any argument other than insults. So far I’ve mostly add positive interaction on Lemmy, this community is fill with people who seem to live beyond their intellectual means.
Give one example of the show actually making a good argument.
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I am very sorry for whatever life circumstances and/or choices have lead to you thinking that south park is a nuanced and intelligent show. In 2023 no less.
It’s a cartoon made for edgy-brained cable TV watchers, most of whom started watching it when they were literal children.
The main message of the show is that those edgy brain dead cable TV watchers are smarter than anybodybwho cares strongly about a topic in wither direction.
N word? People who get really upset and don’t think white people should say it are the same as virulent racists.
Climate change? People who think it’s real might be right but they’re so I sufferable its better to do nothing.
Political correctness? The greatest threat facing our country in the caliber year 2016. If you think people should be politically correct you’re the same as a racist Trump supporter.
You can see why the dumbest people in the world think it’s a smart show, because the show told the dumbest people in the world they’ve actually got it all figured out.
No need to feel sorry for me, nomatter how much you’d like to make me feel stupid, the fact is that my whole life and career have been about telling me that I’m not. I rather think it’s this sub that’s filled with a edgy-brained caricature of little vigilantes hiding behind a keyboard, who’ve probably never achieved anything concrete that would actually be coherent with their speech, but who take refuge behind the idea that they’re intellectually superior.
dawg every comment you make is completely off the rails like what the hell are you doing here lmao
people said south park is a dumb and bad show that promotes bad ideas and you’re seemingly one step away from sending me your CV for some reason
How old are you jfc
k
Starting to think the ML in Lemmy.ml stands for machine learning, because there’s no way an adult human writes like this
Sorry for sounding like an AI to you. I actually speak 4 langages, doing my best to translate my thoughts in english because people like you cant understand anything else.
I actually speak 4 languages
Congratulations.
You’re on a Marxist forum with users all over the world, not Reddit.
Being multilingual isn’t fucking special, most of the world is, and most of our users are.
If you think the ideas presented in South Park aren’t simplistic then that’s a problem with you and not everyone else
They have funny episodes and moments, but outside of shock value I find it mostly annoying. These guys cover the most recent topics and try to come up with some centrist take within a week. I don’t know if they’re still doing the overarching storyline for each season, but at least when I watched it it was rather stale and ignorant
The funny episodes are the ones about how ridiculous kids can be and aren’t political, like the superhero one, or the Lord of the Rings one, or the one where they play with weapons.
I think Trey and Matt realize it too, because all of the recent South Park games are about those, and they actually need to sell those games.
