Meta threads will open federation to the fediverse soon, and while this is mainly to mastodon it will still affect lemmy. They are acting like they won’t be evil, but let’s be real this is Facebook when have they ever done that.
This article which has been trending lately explains some of the issues. https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
This comment here is a simple analogy if you can’t be bothered reading the article. https://lemmy.ca/comment/5702922
Unfortunately, as much as I like Lemmy. It’s kind of stuck in a catch-22 situation.
The bigger it grows the more likely it is to be destroyed by “bad actors”
Imo it depends on how it grows, especially how much decentralization it can preserve.
Decentralization may be its biggest weakness. It requires too much overhead.
What happens when 100’s of instances are stood up for the purpose of fragmenting or taking over? Or META just starts buying federated instances? The burden will fall on each individual instance owner to try and keep up. Ain’t happening.
Wtf are you talking about? Decentralization is the one thing that separates the fediverse from existing social networks. It’s the entire point of this whole endeavour. It’s even what happens in your failure scenarios, because the problem with someone taking over everything is the centralization it introduces.
Instances like Lemmy.world and lemmy.ml are a big threat to decentralisation, however threads would be at a whole new level
When I last looked at the defederations of some Mastodon servers, everyone was already blocking Threads. This was a year ago. Instances running Lemmy and Kbin and like should probably do the same.
There is nothing to gain from interaction with Meta/Threads
Get over yourself.
There are tons of well-meaning people on threads who’ve never heard of mastodon, lemmy, or the fediverse.
And ? Thats still not a reason to federate. I joined the Fediverse years ago to get away from the “well meaning people” dragging us into the pile of shit because they don’t grok that meta/twitter is cancer.
If they’re that disinterested in why Meta/Bluesky is “cancer” then I’m not really interested in what they have to say on most subjects. Its not elitism, its the same reaosn I am not interested in what members of the Liberal Party have to say on a sinject, sure their is some sanity some times but I don’t want to have to wade through waist deep ship to find it.
Being “well meaning” and using “a toxic billionare run platform” are incompatable. You can be one …or the other, you can’t be both.
Ignorance isnt an excuse. Let then stay with their toxicity is all that’s being asked.
Why would anyone join Lemmy/Mastodon if they could join Threads instead for the same content? Normal people don’t care that your shit is FLOSS or decentralised, they just want convenience.
Why would anyone run their own email server if they could just use Gmail instead for the same content?
Your argument could also be used against the very idea of federation.
Your argument was that people aren’t using servers that run FLOSS federated software is because they’re not aware of them. My argument is that the people who aren’t aware are also people who wouldn’t use those servers even if they knew.
The people who run their own mail servers are massive nerds, the people who are on Mastodon are also massive nerds. This status quo won’t change just because a megacorp adopts ActivityPub (in fact, you eloquently bring to attention how everyone uses Gmail or Hotmail, and basically no individual runs their own mail server*). So if that’s your argument, the original commenter’s point still stands.
*Moreover I’ve heard that because of this monopoly on email, sending email from a mail server you run to the big providers without it immediately getting sent to spam, if delivered at all, is basically impossible.
Only massive nerds are worth interacting with?
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lol. Got it. Nerds only via the internet. Great argument.
Reread my message since my last edit. I’m not arguing that at all; I’m simply saying that if the open source Fediverse wants to appeal to a wider audience, it needs to appeal to the needs and wants of that audience. That’s not the same as merely federating with a closed source instance that already has that appeal.
Gmail killed the popularity of most email services. Don’t let Threads end up like Gmail
Fully agreed, anyone who doesn’t either works for Meta or can’t see the writing on the wall about what this will do to the fediverse.
This seems like a very important discussion but let me tell you how I came across it. It’s possible many others on Aussie Zone fall into a similar boat as mine. If not please ignore.
I only use Voyager to interact with Lemmy regularly. Occasionally I check out Aussie Zone via a browser but that’s very rare.
I think the ‘Default feed’ for Voyager is ‘Home’ which are the coms I’ve subbed to. I didn’t even know what ‘Local’ was until I looked it up just now (while trying to find out if Voyager can list all the coms of an instance like the coms page in a desktop browser, which I don’t think it does).
So I was surprised not to see this discussion earlier after seeing it pop up more broadly across the lemmyverse. Turns out that’s because I never selected the Local feed to see what everyone is talking about and because I wasn’t subbed to Meta (as in the Aussie Zone com, not the company) until now.
If my ignorance is unusual for Aussie Zone folk then please ignore this comment. If it’s possible that lots of other active or semi-active local users are not seeing this discussion is there any way to highlight it across the instance?
it can get pinned by an admin, but i dont think thats nessarcery . you should subscribe to [email protected] if you want to see posts about the instance itself.
Here’s my not-at-all-qualified take:
Let the federation ride. If Threads users add meaningful content and activity, then cool.
But the second we see a Meta ad, pull that fucking plug. We should not be distributing their ads for free (or at all).
Yeah but you might have it in reverse. Meta would benefit from lemmy users providing original content. It would basically suck the life out of the smaller instances and people would have no incentive to stick with apps or instances made by the little guys. If Meta started serving ads and we pulled out, it wouldn’t mean much. By then, Meta might have adopted most users - all the while stealing our content.
^ Super hypothetical. I’m not a federation expert. But it sounds like that could happen.
I don’t think lemmy and mastodon are big enough for meta to care about stealing our content.
Once the cats out of the bag, it won’t want to go back in.
Let us have all users from Lemmy, Kbin, Mastodon and probably Tumblr, and none from Meta. Is it so damaging to exclude them? With them comes the Meta fuckery, them dictating rules. It’s better without them.
Are you planning on signing up for a Meta account? Their rules won’t affect anyone who isn’t using their instance.
It’s not how it works, I believe.
We are as regulated as 4chan.
If they get federated with other big instance, their mil+ audience wouldn’t only bring their own shenanigans, it would bring attention from regulating bodies - for one, and for two - Meta’s want for control over how fediverse is operated.
I would see it as the fediverse being like the UN and Threads being like America. The UN can say whatever they want about their rules and America will and do ignore them due to their size, influence and power.
Forgive my newbness, but is it up to instance owners to defederate? Or individual users? I don’t really know how it works.
Instance Admins
Thanks.
Personally I think this is ridiculous.
First, there’s the simple fact that Lemmy’s interaction with Threads will likely be the same relatively rare/limited interaction we currently have with Mastodon. People might show up to comment from time to time, and we’ll be able to @mention their users. But that’s about it. It’s not a serious issue for Lemmy instances to be concerned about.
But second, I think pre-emptive defederation here, regardless of whether we’re talking about Lemmy or Mastodon instances, is ridiculous. If they start doing bad things, it is trivial to defederate at that time. If they don’t, we’re much better off letting them participate and benefit from the increased number and variety of users with whom we can interact thanks to their participation in the fediverse.
Don’t fall for FUD when there’s an opportunity knocking.
What more does Facebook need to do to convince you they are awful for everyone but the ultra-rich capitalists?
Are you unaware or just ignorant? They caused a fucking genocide FFS.
they caused a what now
In Myanmar.
If they start doing bad things
They knowingly house hate groups. They’ve been doing bad things since the start…
They will do bad things. They have a proven track record. So fear? Sure. No uncertainty or doubt though.
If they start doing bad things
Meta/Facebook have been doing bad things for 20 years now.
“I don’t know why they ‘trust me.’ Dumb fucks.” - Zuckerberg
I agree, we cannot pass up the opportunity to get more interaction, especially when there is such little harm to us. At the end of the day we can choose to defederate with threads at any time, unless you have an account on their instance they shouldn’t be able to track you, at least without exploiting a vulnerability in Lemmy or Mastodon.
Edit: I’ve had a bit of a think and changed my mind see comment in reply to the reply to this comment
More interaction is not the same as good interaction.
especially when there is such little harm to us
What’s your motivation to be a Lemmy user? What keeps you here?
I am very afraid of what a big American company can do to this community. They see everything as a stepping stone to money.
I’ve had a bit more of a think about it and read that article about XMPP again, and I’ve had a change of mind.
Earlier I was thinking about the possibility of becoming mainstream, however, not being mainstream is probably what makes Lemmy so great. And would threads users even discover us or would they just try to suck the life out of Mastodon by talking over everyone? How would threads rank posts from Mastodon vs posts on threads?
Furthermore, if we became mainstream we might attract the attention of government which might try to regulate us. This could make admins and mods legally responsible for the discourse in their communities which could be discouraging for instances like ours. Remember, while email isn’t regulated politicians don’t understand computers beyond basic usage, so this is probably the same thing as Facebook to them. Even if we didn’t become mainstream, mods and admins would just be slaves to Meta focussed on dealing with their large variety of users rather than trying to grow our own communities.
Another question I’ve considered is do we even need their users? My answer to that is no. Another thing that makes Lemmy Lemmy and even more so Aussie Zone is the quality of the users. Not just anyone will join, we get people who are more passionate about the bigger picture, people who demand something better, people who aren’t afraid to try something new. Lemmy users are visionaries which is why we have such passionate arguments and why there is such a large bias towards progressive politics.
So yeah, I think we should tell Meta they’re dreamin’ and send em back to the pavilion. Or in other words: Fuck off Meta!
It’s interesting how attractive the thought of becoming mainstream is. Bigger = better.
mods and admins would just be slaves to Meta focussed on dealing with their large variety of users rather than trying to grow our own communities.
I wonder if mods & admins would just be overwhelmed, or if Meta would find a way of using their effort and hours to their advantage? ie use them as a free modding force for their product (indirectly). Labour for your Lemmy instance would become labour for Meta.
I’m surprised by your full turnaround in opinion. Some of your earlier thoughts are valid: they probably won’t be able to track you any more than they currently can (through read-only Lemmy interaction) and more interaction does have its benefits.
I guess perhaps defederating them now vs later might come down to whether or not you see Meta as a person or a company. If a new person joins/federates then you generally don’t want to pre-judge them, even if they’ve had a bad history you hope they can stick to the rules and participate well. Alas Meta isn’t a person, they’re a bit more like a government (they’re bigger than some nations) and very single minded in their pursuits. They don’t have the ability to turn around and go “apologies that I’m hurting people, I’ll actually change my ways and start following the values of your community now”.
Turns out I was wrong about the tracking and advertising they absolutely could do it and they absolutely will:
They could send ads masquerading as posts/comments and track you using images (since they are served from Meta’s servers similarly to how tracking works with images in emails
I didn’t think of that, if you federate then you essentially become a publisher of their ads and tracking. Ty for the link.
Outing yourself with FUD talk. There are lots of reasons to keep skepticism alive ahead of any wrongdoing, given the difference in motivations between Meta and the Fediverse.
So this means I’ll be seeing what people post on threads in my lemmy app?
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So you want an alternative to closed source platforms, but you want said closed source platforms to be the biggest on the fediverse. Uuhh, yeah…
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I don’t quite understand, would it be harder to defederate later, once they start becoming evil? Lemmy and Mastodon were founded to actively distance ourselves from the likes of Twitter and Reddit. We’re not here because it’s the only option we have or because we’re creating a whole new system. We’re here because we chose to and decide that we could live without relying on those big corporations. Surely, people here are more willing to give Meta the middle finger and wouldn’t mind blocking Threads if that ever happened right?
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I’m not sure that most Lemmy users have much to fear from Threads because it’s a microblogging thing which Lemmy isn’t. I
I’m on Kbin where there’s slightly more of a concern in theory because Kbin has microblogging capabilities baked in but I don’t think it’s used very much (I have a separate Mastodon account anyway and that’s where the real discussions about all this are happening understandably).
In practice I don’t know, I have a strong feeling Meta aren’t really interested in this corner of the fediverse right now, they want to be a Twitter-killer after all not a Reddit competitor. Which is why if you’re interested in the subject most of the actual debate is going on Mastodon or equivalents.
None of this is going against your main point necessarily, Meta are obviously very shady. But also innocent until proven guilty, you know? Most instances have a pretty solid code of law.
Mods are going to be in for a bumpy ride though…
I’ll be blocking it the first time it shows up on my feed anyway.
For completeness there was a discussion (outdated) a few months back on this for anyone interested: https://aussie.zone/post/401165
I presume this will be the case, but don’t think there’s been any official announcement yet. The majority of current servers have planned to resist by defederating.
