As far as I can tell, the traditions that surround Christmas have nothing to do with Christianity. Basically most of the stuff was coopted by Christianity at some point from some other belief or religion.
There’s no mention of putting up lights or a tree or giving presents to eachother as part of celebrating Jesus’ “birthday” (which all evidence would suggest, was not in December).
So I would ask, what’s particularly Christian about Christmas trees, lights and decorations, as well as gift giving at Christmas time? What part of the Bible says that’s what you’re supposed to do?
Simply put, it’s not in the Bible.
So I really have up wonder about anyone who criticises an atheist (or literally any non-Christian) about “celebrating” Christmas, since all the traditional stuff about Christmas has nothing to do with Christianity.
Obvious exception for Christmas mass or whatever religious service is happening the same day as Christmas… Going to a church is literally the only Christian thing about Christmas that Christians do… Everything else is simply “tradition” which has no basis in the Bible.
People like Sorbo are over here trying to gate keep celebrating the holidays.
Actually there is a possible Bible reference to the Three Magi who brought gifts to baby Jesus, some Christian traditions refer to this for gift giving instead of Christmas.
The so called “three Wise Men” or whatever. Yep.
IMO that’s a bit of a flimsy argument. Jesus’ family got gifts on his birthday, so everyone should participate in unrestricted consumerism because Jesus.
… Almost everyone celebrates their birthday with gift giving. Why then, in this case, does it constitute that everyone should give stuff to their friends/family/etc? “It’s someone else’s birthday, so I got you a gift!” What? Why?
The logic is insane.
Why do you expect perfect logic from religious practice and other rituals (ex: national celebrations)? They are just made to strengthen the ties between people. It makes people happy to receive gifts because it makes them feel valued. Consumerism is a phenomenon that adds to this but it’s not specific to religious rituals, it is everywhere. Kids used to just receive simple stuff like oranges.
And it isn’t just the traditions that are borrowed, but the date too. As you said, the 25th of December wasn’t Jesus’ birthday - but it apparently was the birthday of Sol Invictus. (i.e. the sun.)
What to the more on all that. Xmas is basically just late to the picture as the real holiday is already over on Xmas eve.
The real bit to celebrate regardless of religion, or even, if not especially, the lackthereof, is that this is the day of the return to the sun in the Earth’s ellipse of varying distance from such.
Wouldn’t it be great if the sorbo account is a parody account and he’s just a harmless luddite in real life, surprised and frustrated to eventually find out someone is using his likeness to say the absolutely dumbest things anyone can say?
Sadly, he’s exactly like what his account paints him as, an out of touch jackass who thinks he’s the best thing to ever happen to low budget TV.
His ego fucked over Andromeda. That show could have been so much more, if they had just cast someone else.
I liked early Andromeda and loved season 1 of Earth: Final Conflict. Can’t blame Sorbo for EFC going down the shitter after one season, but Rodenberry properties other than Star Trek just can’t seem to get any footing.
EFC was an interesting one.
Here’s Gene Roddenberry’s full pitch for EFC, or Battleground Earth as the pitch calls it.
He died before writing anything more for it. He does get writing credit for the pilot, but that’s just a Hollywood feel good thing.
Part of the problem is he’s had like 47 strokes. He’s literally brain damaged.
Lucy Lawless has said that he was just as bad before the strokes. And that, sadly, he’s made a full recovery.
I probably shouldn’t be posting this here, because some of you are likely to rub your dicks off in excitement, but this is a relevant article:
https://bigthink.com/neuropsych/study-finds-link-between-brain-damage-and-religious-fundamentalism/
It’s not just fundamentalism. Maybe it makes you look for answers within. Digging up corpses.
Holy scrambled cannoli! 47?! Drugs?
It was three, and it was due to an aneurysm in his shoulder.
Savage. I’m not even happy lol.
I made the number up, but it was a lot. If I recall it was/is something congenital.
My favorite numbers:
89% of all Bathroom Accidents occur outside of a bathroom73% of all Statistics are made up
I would assume that Lucy Lawless would know. She’s gotten into arguments with Sorbo over twitter.
But that would make TheLiamNissan’s dunks on him less amusing.
Totally agree, but it’s easy target practice vs an ideal world where the righteous Hercules who teamed up with xena isn’t a total asshole, and I more enjoy the wistful imagined nostalgia of the latter and can shoulder the cognitive dissonance.
Ah, yes, on that I do agree.
I have a friend who is a Jehovah’s Witness and he wonders why Christians do the same thing.
Euphoric may may
As someone who used to be facebook friends with this joker, you have to be a special kind of stupid to make McAfee look like the voice of reason in comparison.
How is McAfee a joker? Just curious.
No, he’s actually rather serious. He overplays his importance to sell his book, constantly bragging about how his book “Disproving God” is required reading in University Biology Courses (no it isn’t), and just plays way too heavily to the “Dudebro” crowd in general…
But… the really shitty part is that he’s a supporter of literal god damn eugenics and believes religiosity is a “gene” we need to “breed out of existence” which triggers more than a raised eyebrow on my “Yikes” scale
Is Christmas a religious holiday? Since when?
Oh yes, because xmas trees, Santa and reindeer are heavy themes in the Bible…
To me Xmas is not a religious event. The midnight mass is religious. But the whole bit with Santa, the tree, and the presents. No.
Also Jesus was born during tax season, not the winter solstice.
Born or re-born or re-erected or whatever?
He was always erected
But like, their local tax season, right? From what I remember they had travelled to pay taxes, but the Romans didn’t wait until April like America does.
Actually, did some quick searching and it looks like the Romans were forcing (I think Jewish people, but it may also have been regional? Sources are giving me different things and I can’t be bothered to log into my account that gives me access to scholarly articles) people to register for a new tax. Since the Romans at the time would usually tax in cycles of like, 5-15 years, if they followed a structured system at all (It also seems like there wasn’t income tax or taxes in individual assets, but they would tax transactions and import/exports mostly). But If I was going to set something like that up, I’d do the registration due near the end of the year. I think they were using the Julian Calendar whish largely lines up with the current day calendar, at least in the year end/beginning. Best guess from what I’ve seen is they likely were there during the Jewish holidays right after the fall harvest.
So it seems like they waited until after the harvest was done, then had to travel to get registered by end of year and got there and popped out baby jesus around Sept/Oct (ish).
Of course that’s assuming any of those stories have any validity. Historical consensus is coming around to admitting how little evidence for a biblical Jesus there actually is. Since there are no contemporary writings and all of them were telling this story decades, if not centuries later, it’s super easy to just line up your stories with the way things happened in the past.
The shepherds were out with their flocks according to the New Testament. That doesn’t happen in winter, it happens in spring.
I saw that argument and they actually said they put them out after Passover (in spring) then bring them back in when it gets cold. That’s months, right? And they’re not exactly in frigid climes- definitely closer to temperate, so that easily extends well into the late fall.
Again though, that was written later (A lot later) by someone (who wasn’t there) specifically to try and give a time frame. There’s no way it was an actual description of what happened, but them setting a scene … that has trouble standing up to historical critique.
If I recall correctly, the whole tax thing didn’t actually happen at that time as far as we know because there aren’t any contemporary records of it happening at that time.
I did think that, but wasn’t sure if the tree was something about birth or the presents were a 3 wise men thing. 90% sure the tree is a pagan thing and every hardcore Christian should abolish it from their home.
I mean technically Santa was a notable party to a major doctrinal synod on the theological nature of the Trinity, not exactly biblical in a literal sense but going down in history for cold clocking an archbishop for arguing that the father is the son’s greater since he begat the son IMO qualifies you to be considered a prominent part of the theology of your religion.
Seriously. Christmas has become ~85% secularized in the US.
Of course it is - its a commercial holiday and they wanna sell to everyone
Santa died for our sins
You didn’t hear it from me, but word on the street is Jesus faked his death and has been living under the false identity of Santa.
So that whole bit of dead for three days was basically just really good dope.
Dang, no wonder he can do it all in one night. It finally makes sense!
The Bible was written by dyslexics. It’s actually about dogs and Santa.
Santa/Sinterklaas is based on a Christian bishop and patron Saint who is attributed with giving gifts in secret.
I want that on a t-shirt.
Okay but Santa is just a prophet. We should put him upside down.
Why do Christians buy a Christmas tree and gifts for their kids? It has nothing to do with the birth of Christ and isn’t a Christian tradition.
Why Sorbo always gotta double down on cringe. Dude needs to get off twitter and smoke some dope.
Looks like I’m happy I literally only know him by Andromeda (not even Hercules), he’s great there, and I know nothing else about him
A lifetime of eating lead paint chips will do that to a person.
You mean putting up a Yule tree and trading presents like the Romans did, two traditions stolen by Christianity?
As others have said, pretty much co-opted from existing traditions https://historyofenglishpodcast.com/2013/05/05/episode-24-germanic-mythology/
Christianity/Catholicism and Pagan traditions basically absorbed each other, even within Christendom power struggles concessions were made to accommodate and consolidate power. Can see this today more obviously in South America where Catholicism and animist indigenous beliefs have blended together, Peloponneseia as well.
Frankly, Christmas right now has very little to do with actual Christmas.
Besides the well known tidbit that Christmas tree that was adopted by Christians.
The actual Christmas was about having a family dinner (like Thanksgiving) and then waiting until midnight for the birth of Christ.
The Santa Claus originates from Saint Nicholas, who was celebrated on December 5th. The legend was that he secretly was making and bringing toys to orphanage.
The current Santa Claus is just bastardization of Saint Nicholas in order to sell shit. Same thing with St Valentine. It is Christian in the name only at this point.
That’s a very US-centric description though. There have been decades of slowly secularizing Christmas in the US (although I did notice a comeback of religious themed Christmas songs on the radio in the last couple of years).
In my native country we celebrate Saint Nicholas on December 6th, and we get presents from him in our boots on that morning.
Christmas is focused on the birth of Christ, not on Santa (who is not considered the same as St Nicholas and there are several legends about the origin of Santa, generally all connected to the birth of Jesus). Christmas dinner is a time for families to get together, similar to Thanksgiving in the US (but not waiting until midnight for the birth of Christ, we don’t have Christmas dinner on Christmas Eve, we have it on Christmas Day, celebrating the birth of Christ; Christmas Eve is the last day of fasting before Christmas).
Also the 25th is just the first of 3 days of Christmas.
Even worse
Modern red suited Santa was reimagined and heavily commercialized by Coca-Cola and Christmas was appropriated from Sol Invictus. Nobody even knows when Jesus was born.
Colonization and commercialization at their best.
Why do Christians buy “Christmas” trees when they’re explicitly forbidden?
Jeremiah 10:1-5
1 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: 2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
If you try googling any of this, you will find a shit ton of christian cope. Reminder, the Christmas tree started as a winter solstice pagan holiday.
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the Christmas tree started as a winter solstice pagan holiday.
I’d always heard that too, but Religion for breakfast put out a pretty interesting breakdown on why that may likely not be the case.
Interesting.
Honestly, given that they are using a narrow definition of specifically an evergreen being decorated I don’t agree. I’m not sure why we wouldn’t include other types of winter holiday trees or bushes like the ones decorated for Saturnalia. There’s also a lot of “probably” and supposition in this video.
I thought the Christmas tree started relatively recently, around the Renaissance.
If you try googling any of this, you will find a shit ton of christian cope
“Cope” is basically the foundation of most religions.
Mostly because 90% of what’s in The Bible is gobblederemoved, twisted and contorted by a wide variety of opportunistic con men over the course of thousands of years, written in such a vague way as to easily be interpreted to mean whatever they want it to mean.
Similar to the way Trump speaks in vague generalities and word salad, and people hear whatever they want to hear, which of course leads to massive problems when you’re the leader or aspiring leader of the free world.
Basically. I once overheard an explanation of the holy trinity and I just couldn’t figure out how anyone could be satisfied with it. They just exhaust the listener with nonsense until they give in.
Coming at him with a personal insult is not the way to go about this.
The correct way is to point out that most Christmas traditions are not rooted in Christianity, but in paganism.
It’s Santa’s birthday. What does it even have to do with Christians?
On a serious note it doesn’t matter. They don’t want to engage and they aren’t going to change their views. This is for the echo chamber.
He’ll just call you an antifa plant.
That’s fine but then he comes off as “taking the low road” instead of you.
I’d argue the most correct way to address that is to roll your eyes and move on without engaging and then laugh about it later. And do everything in your power to keep these kinds of people away from having any power over you.
And also, it doesn’t matter.
I don’t give a shit what kind of holiday it is, it’s just an excuse to have a day off, be with your loved ones and eat good food.
I could do that any time of the year but most people seem to like this particular season and it works for me.
I could do that any time of the year
I really don’t think you could. This is a time of year that the entire country recognizes as “holiday season”, so there’s a good chance your entire family can take off of work and all be together at that time of year.
I meant it more as in " this holiday season could be any time of the year".
Obviously we can only get off work and meet on something like a holiday, but it doesn’t matter to me what the holiday is about, or when it is, as long as i get a day off it’s all the same to me.
Edit: Also, that’s why i said
“most people seem to like this particular season”
By most people i meant society. We as a society decided this is “holiday season”, but it could be any other time of the year and it’d make little difference to me.
Nah, simple facts don’t work on people like Sorbo. Insults don’t really work either, but at least that’s funnier.
The only thing that works with Kevin Sorbo is not having brain damage.
Exactly. What is Christian about chopping down an evergreen and put it in your house? That’s a pre-christian fertility symbol to invoke the turn of the solar year and the next agricultural season.
Also, the man is an idiot.
To be fair, after McClellan’s notes about the lack of primary data linking Christmas to non-Christian holidays I would gleefully support divorcing government observances of Chrismas in favor of generic winter or end of year festivities.
Republicans in the US have really soured me to anything Christian, which I now associate with property rights of the rich, authoritarian autocracy and white power movements. (That these might conflict with scripture is irrelevant to the policies lobbied by ministries and pushed by Christian-identifying officials.)
Christmas was on its way out when Charles Dickens wrote his potboiler and changed how we saw and celebrated Christmas in the following century. It might be time to put it to pasture and forge anew new winter traditions that mean something to who we are today.
Being raised christian really soured me to anything christian. ;-)
* Peanut.
You get it.
