Do these people think before they fucking talk?
Not before, nor during, nor after.
They hardly think at all.
Post scarcity societies can’t be approached in any meaningful way with modern economic theories.
Star Trek is neither socialist nor capitalist, as both are systems designed to manage and portion out scarcity, and are based on economic theories that lack any predictive abilities in systems that don’t work in a context of scarce resources that need administration.
Neither the labour theory of value nor marginal utility theory make any sense when all resources are trivial to obtain for individuals and whatever resources your community uses can be reused virtually endlessly within the limits of entropy.
While that may be true about Star Trek after the fact, the truth is that in order to get the federation off the ground, and the world economy in line to create the first Enterprise and crew and all the scientific advancements they made, required the entire world moving to a purely socialistic platform/agenda to achieve.
I don’t think you can discount first contact’s affect on that shift. Finding out you’re not alone in the universe would surely have a massive societal impact.
Are we really dealing with “scarcity” at this point?
Supermarkets throw away literal millions of tonnes of food annually. “Reduce, reuse, recycle” has become a hollow mantra that cannot be truly adopted by the profit driven design philosophies of consumer products. Sustainability is being treated like some chic perk rather than a critical topic that must be taken seriously if we want any hope for our futures.
All these things are profoundly capitalist problems. Of course, it’s not like marxist-leninist ‘experiments’ fared any better, devolving into their own variants of capitalism, but there are many other socialist ideologies to consider (such as anarchism…)
We are, because people want luxury goods too. Post-scarcity is about being able to produce most goods with barely any human labor (would absolutely be true for food if every person on earth only worked in food production or to produce machinery needed for it), which we aren’t even close to. AI and automation might get us there (though it’s questionable when the cycle of just investing the newfound labor capacity into more luxuries will stop, if ever), but people are actively resisting that (reasonably so) because the current economic system basically everywhere is horribly rigged towards funnelling the excess wealth to rich individuals rather than improving the living standards of society as a whole.
Idk, I’d say we want quality goods, and are lead to believe that these desires can be fulfilled by the lofty luxury goods market which is founded more on artificial scarcity than material scarcity. Even when rare materials and expensive labour are involved the fact that this simply makes them “more valuable” seems more important than any actual need, or lack of alternatives. Meanwhile, affordable products get enshittified, shorter lifespans, etc.
though it’s questionable when the cycle of just investing the newfound labor capacity into more luxuries will stop, if ever
Which is precisely why “post-scarcity” can only be reached with actual societal change, not just technological advancement.
The oligarchs and billionaires who own the corporate mainstream media and both political parties are the ones stirring up WOKE issues. Why? So you all hate each other and take your eye off the billionaire thieves stealing everything. This is why we can’t have nice things.
I guess if you just watched Enterprise you might assume trek isn’t woke
hey! ENT was awesome
They went heavy on Bush doctrine apologism during the xindi storyline though
I think it was more of a ‘this is a great opportunity for metaphoric storytelling’ than ‘let’s celebrate the Bush Doctrine’ though.
I think it failed, but that’s another issue.
I got a lot of “we’re facing an exitensial threat, therefore the ends justify the means” out of the 3rd season. It seemed really out of place in a star trek show. Maybe it wasn’t an implicit endorsement of the Bush doctrine but it sure smelled like one to me.
It’s been so long that I’d have to watch it again, to be honest. To me, the only good season of Enterprise was Season 4 when Manny Coto took over and just made it a season-long tribute to TOS. Ironically, Coto is a Republican. That said, he also made another terrific short-lived sci-fi TV show called Odyssey 5 with Peter Weller. I highly recommend its one season despite the cliffhanger ending.
RoboCop huh? Sounds interesting, I’ll have a look. Thanks for the suggestion.
No problem. It was part of Showtime’s sci-fi block which also had a pretty good post-apocalyptic show called Jeremiah, which showed that Malcolm Jamal-Warner had range beyond sitcoms. Showtime axed all of their sci-fi shows and it died. Stargate SG-1 was the only one that got saved by moving over to the Sci-Fi Channel, I think because it was being co-funded by Canada.
I wish he’d continued to story in a book or something. Everyone I’ve recommended it to has liked it. Looks like all of the episodes are on YouTube. Here’s the pilot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWGbfQOFN60
Recently watched a couple of episodes and it definitely felt old-fashioned in a way that didn’t feel appropriate for show about an utopian society from the early 2000s. At least the original series was progressive for the 1960s, which doesn’t necessarily feel “woke” from a 2020s rightwinger perspective.
Or republicans just root for the enemies, that’s always a possibility.
We’re in the mirror universe, aren’t we?
You serious, Clark?
🤣 My dad and I say this to each other whenever one of us is gullible. I never see anyone quote it out in the wild.
Star Wars is literally space conservatives rebelling against the galactic communist (1970s US propagandized version of invented communism-fascist aesthetic*) empire…
Firefly is to an even greater degree, like libertarian Browncoats rebelling. I love the fan fic take that the Alliance were the “good guys.”
ok but the empire were literally fascists trying to rule the imperial senate with absolute authority…
Yeah it’s not actual communism but more like a reflection of the fears of communism in pop culture from the time when it was written in the late 70s. Comment was a bit inprecise but amended.
Why are you spreading this around like it’s true? Also, this is you:
Very interesting! I knew the Vietnam thing but I’m not into Star Wars.
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George Lucas mentions Vietnam as an influence
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Fascism is clearly represented as well
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Star Wars is not a politically consistent universe or critique
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It’s a typical story arc where the antagonist is an amalgamation of things that were considered bad at the time
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It’s Star Wars so I ultimately don’t care that much
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Even the empire’s uniforms were pretty obviously based on nazi uniforms, what makes you think the empire is supposed to represent communism?
George Lucas said Vietnam inspired the writing, and communism in American pop culture was synonymous with basically every “bad” thing.
He said the Ewoks were inspired by the Viet Cong. Were the guerilla fighters fighting against the guerilla Empire?
The empire was the US
is it a coincidence that vader is derived from the german word for father?
I’m not sure about Vader being more than a coincidence, but the roots of the word for “father” goes a lot further back than German. Linguists have traced it back through many cultures into prehistory. It’s probably more ancient than we can ever discover. This blew my mind the other day.
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Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
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Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/BUIQAGqhSj0?si=qnmadJhGOjcRM8G3
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Is that the case? It’s both written and pronounced differently
well i did say “derived from” and not “the exact same word” but as it turns out the connection to vater was a rumor george lucas himself started, likely to make originating vision for the series appear stronger and more planned. there is evidence that the name existed in the scripts before he was changed to be lukes father, so that does contradict the later assertion.
that makes sense! fair point!
It’s just based on what other’s have said about the Vietnam allegory but it’s also whatever, I’m sure Lucas’ wasn’t thinking of it as a primarily political mission to produce Star Wars, since it’s very much a standard plot with your usual archetype characters and roles.
There’s a similar fan take on Lord of the Rings too which is interesting.
George Lucas has said that it was the Vietnam War that inspired the conflict in Star Wars, with the Empire representing the US, but also the rebels could represent the US against the British Empire from the Revolutionary War.
Very interesting! I knew the Vietnam thing but I’m not into Star Wars.
I don’t recall reading that anywhere. I do remember seeing WW2 referenced, especially with respect to the dogfights.
The Empire was in no way representative of Communism, it’s a fascist Empire with literal “Stormtroopers.” Lucas has shown more antifascist sentiment, and no anti-socialist sentiment. Lucas said the Empire represents the US, and the rebels the Viet Cong, in inspiration.
One time, he even said despite the censorship in the USSR, he felt that move directors and writers were more free to make what they wanted without the profit motive getting in the way, specifically citing artistic freedom being higher (in his words).
Money doesn’t exist in Star Trek but credits do in Star Wars.
Money exists in Star Trek, the Federation just doesn’t use it. the Ferengi love the stuff though
They occasionally reference “Federation Credits”, but I think it’s mainly for use outside the Federation.
This is just a world building issue that comes with hundreds of writers over the decades. Who knows how money works. Someone will say something, then ten years later, another writer wont get the note and write something that conflicts.
That’s the greatest accomplishment of the Federation, tricking the Ferengi! Internally money isn’t used anymore, but to trade with the Ferengi they use these Non Federation Tokens, which have no real value.
Federation credits? Federation credits are no good out here. I need something more real.
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Star Wars never got replicators, but they did get sweet laser swords
Fuck laser swords, i want food without cooking.
Star wars kind of has that, if ‘just add water’ counts as ‘without cooking’
Best I can do is different colored milk, but I will throw in some space wizards and what the hell personal starships for everyone.
Pressed latinum bars?
My latinum! It’s a fake! It’s all worthless gold!!!
I would have thought they’d be more of a Starship Troopers fan, since the satire would fly over the fash’s head.
TBF Heinlein didn’t mean for it to be a satire, Verhoeven just turned it into one.
Nice one! I’m ultra-progressive but love that movie.
I mean, so long as you see the satire of the film, that’s not incompatible.
StAr tReK is TOO DIVERSE, tHatS wHy I lIkE Babylon 5!
[insert heavy breathing and unchecked drooling]
Babylon 5 is too liberal, that’s why I like Farscape
Farscape isn’t horny enough. That’s why I like LEXX
Lexx isn’t british enough, that’s why i watch red dwarf.
Red Dwarf isn’t wet enough, that’s why I watch SeaQuest DSV
Farscape is too queer, that’s why i like Lexx
Farscape is cool. Star Trek is cool. Star Wars is okay too I guess; not hating, I just don’t like them as much as the rest of the world seems to.
Disney did accidentally turn the two part story arc of space liberals restoring the status quo after it fell to space fascism into a three part warning that liberalism will always fall to fascism by allowing it to thrive in the first place by refusing to address wealth inequality and outright complacency in spite of all the warnings in the galaxy so that’s fun.
Obviously. Because Firefly is the superior show, right?
I mean Firefly is ok, but the original Battlestar Galactica is still supreme.
I believe you are all wrong. Commando Cody is the most excellent science fiction program ever made.
severe lack of stargate in this thread
ronon dex > aquaman
Commando Cody? Bah. The 1935 film The Transatlantic Tunnel is the height of science fiction on film.
I loved the original BG!! But man it didn’t age well :(
Hey, Babylon 5 gave us
BesterMirror Chekov.Talk to me about Babylon 5. What all is woke in it. Never watched it so I don’t know.
Haven’t watched it in years myself, but unless you can define “woke” I’m not going to make any assumptions.
“Woke” has come to mean “Not completely adhering to Republican culture war dogma.”
Even that doesn’t really define it.
Just making sure here, you want me to rigorously define the political position and identity of platformless reactionaries?
Not at all, in fact I’d rather “woke” be defined by what they really mean - feminism, inclusivity, equality, etc. Let’s make them say what they actually mean without hiding behind a nebulous term like “woke”.
Well let’s see, there’s an episode with a dockworker’s strike, in which a “negotiator” is sent in who’s position is basically “I’ll pretend to ask nicely but the only tactic I have is this in-universe law that says I can use the military to force you back to work.” The letter of that in-universe law (the “Rush Act”) is “The local military commander can break strikes by any means he deems necessary.” And Commander Sinclair decides to pay the dockworkers what they demand out of the military budget of the station. So the union ultimately wins.
There’s several times when some character, often a human but sometimes an alien, walks up to some other kind of alien and says “We don’t want you FREAKS coming in and stealing our JOBS!” and they’re always depicted as obviously in the wrong. Basically in the script it says “A Republican happens, and gets dealt with.”
There’s a whole episode with a religious exchange, all the various aliens are invited to demonstrate their planet’s “dominant religion.” When it’s the human’s turn, Sinclair takes the alien crew down a hallway with a long line of various different kinds of priests, ministers, monks, etc. The first guy in line is an atheist. The point being “Earth is diverse as fuck, yo.”
The show just barely glances off a lesbian relationship, and the show’s attitude says “What? You didn’t have a problem with the five other romantic couples we’ve seen so far, what’s your problem with this one?”
Oh, then there’s the whole major plot of a socially conservative president sliding Earth’s entire government into totalitarianism with the backing of a hostile alien race thing.
It has an alien species where the religious group has quotes that are directly from Carl Sagan (and they’re have more of a philosophy than a religion, at least in most ways). It generally treats religion with more respect than Roddenberry did, in a “all religion has some good parts to it, but extremism is a problem” kind of way.
One of its major plot arcs is all about how democracies fall into fascism. I thought it was a bit heavy handed at the time, but now it feels too real.
Skirts around a pair of characters in a lesbian relationship, but like most shows at the time, it doesn’t come right out and say it. They 100% banged one night, though.
It’s also military science fiction. That always seems to invite right wingers who love the asthetic but ignore the themes. Same problem with Star Trek and Star Wars.
she probably cheered for the bajor occupation or the government during the bell riots
Eugenics program? So this Khan guy is a good guy?
She’s a cylon sympathizer
I maintain everyone on Battlestar Galactica was a Cylon.
That or Cylonism can spread as an STD.
This solves all plotholes, no further questions.
I’ve seen the anti-woke Star Trek.
I had to stop when they invaded space Iraq due to WMD’s.
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I’ve overall enjoyed enterprise, even if it’s not my favorite. I don’t like how many multiparty storylines there are, but they weren’t so terrible that I stopped watching.
Yeah but the xindi actually did have planet killing weapons so
Does Starfleet not? Besides literally all of their ships. Because every ship that can go to Warp Speed is a planet killer based on the information in the show.
Have you seen human history?
Untrustworthy savages, the lot of them. A rogue species just temporarily acting reasonable for some nefarious plan no doubt.
Now, before you explain that “No, the Xindi really did have it coming,” I have not watched Enterprise, and I never will.
The xindi were lied to by a faction of the temporal cold war that was trying to keep them from joining the federation in the future. From there perspective they thought humans were trying to genocide them so they were defending themselves. I actually enjoyed Enterprise even if it’s not close to my favorite trek series
Enterprise Season 3 opens with a Xindi ship coming out of warp over Earth and cutting a 20 mile wide trench across Florida. Earth didn’t know the Xindi existed at the time, had no idea it was coming or why.
Spoiler alert: the Xindi had been given faulty/false information that Earth was planning to attack them, by some other mutual enemy. IIRC it had to do with that “temporal cold war” thing they tried to push, which I’m convinced was someone in a writing room saying words without thinking about what they meant. What ensues is basically the Hell episode of Voyager stretched across a season.
But I wanted the Hell Episode stretched across a season…
I’m not talking about Enterprise.
Then what are you talking about?
Gene Roddenberry’s Andromeda
Neat, I’ve never heard of that show before
The star of the show is definitely anti woke
The first season is okay sci-fi. The rest is awful.
As far as I can tell, you’re not missing much. A ragtag bunch of sci-fi misfits led by Kevin Sorbo as Kevin Sorbo go on a series of cliche space adventures.
It has some interesting ideas and chapters. But when the creator of the show and the actor playing the Nietschean first officer leave due to Sorbo’s ego, the show really turns into a dumpster fire.
And each adventure is more Sorbo than the last.
At this point media illiteracy is a requirement to be a Republican.
The cognitive dissonance is strong with this one
No fucking way.
