Just an aside, since this is Technology, but Duo and Duolingo are two very different things.
Duo is an authentication software company.
Anyone who has a passion for open source and wants to learn Spanish should check out LibreLingo! It’s also a nice project for people who want to contribute to something that is not owned by a company, though it’s a bit too early for contributors who have language skills but no coding experience.
Any suggestions for other languages? German? Italian?
I like to use Anki with some shared card decks: https://ankiweb.net/shared/decks?search=german
The learning pattern that Anki has configured by default suites me quite well and the app and the card deck is highly customizable.
Mind you, this is mostly only for learning vocabulary, not for learning grammer.
Unfortunately I don’t know of any open source alternative. After another response in this thread I started using busuu.com for French and Italian, and I’m liking it so far. Their business model is pretty transparent, but I find it less annoying than Duolingo so far.
Viel Glück and buona fortuna with your language learning!
I like that’s it’s more real life, the talking, people, subjects etc. Think I’ll use it for a while, because on duolingo I wasn’t evolving much anymore in German, this goes further up it seems
Just as pushy as duolingo unfortunately in ads and mainly in pushing to and rewarding premium.
Yeah, the adds take up some time, but I still find the overall experience less annoying than I did with Duolingo last time I used it. The push towards human interaction, which Duolingo has actively pushed away from, is also welcome.
Duolingo, the dominant player, can simply buy competition like busuu, bypassing the need they’d otherwise have to improve their software.
Thank you for this!
It looks cool, but I can’t even sign up for it (infinite spinning loading icon). I did a search and it’s been a problem for more than a year at this point, yikes.
Fantastic recommendation, thank you
That’s right, never trust a private company that might go public in the future.
That’s why you should build your communities on Discord instead. 🤡
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mIRC for the win.
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Mozilla is a non profit foundation, the corporation is owned by the non profit and exists for tax reasons only. They’re different than a regular corp.
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Well fuck, I guess enshittification is universal. The only safe space is community foss/libre projects I guess
And only as safe as the audit it gets
The NFL was a non-profit until 2015.
The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is a non-profit that stopped the free distribution of a COVID-19 vaccine.
Non-profit status doesn’t automatically equal good but Mozilla has been good so far…for the most part. It has had its own controversies.
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Not what I’m referencing.
Oxford originally pledged to give their vaccine away for free but Gates convinced them otherwise.
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Correct. I should have gone into more detail. Cheers!
Why discord? Everything on it will be lost without exception. Fuck discord.
It’s why they put the clown face emoji at the end. Discord sucks so hard for finding information. The number of interesting projects that exclusively use Discord for their documentation is astounding and frustrating as hell.
That shit is the most infuriating thing ever to me. It seems like so many technical discussions and communities are going to Discord now where that information is not indexed or preserved. How many issues have I had where the answer was sitting on a Discord server that will never appear in any general search result?
The worst part is that it is preserved, as long as the Discord channel still exists, but is functionally impossible to find. Because search engines can’t index it from the outside, and Discord’s search function is just a dumb literal string matcher.
And that won’t stop all the regulars in the channel from jumping down your throat anyway because you asked a question that was answered 17,782,169 chat messages ago. Didn’t you see it? It’s right there. Nestled in between said regulars posting pictures of their cats, or showing off the latest computer peripheral they just bought, or kibitzing about the weather in whatever towns they live in. Interleaved between six separate conversations that were also going on at that time. I mean, duh!
“Just search!” I did, and all the results I got were you guys likewise jumping down the throats of the last 200 people who asked the question before me.
I’ve tried to use discord before but it seems just kinda… awful. It’s essentially a single uninterrupted, general purpose comment chain about a singular topic. It’s a forum meet twitter but worse than either?
Yea that’s cause originally it was just meant to be gamer friends voice chatting and text chatting with each other. They build all the other features on top of what they had originally so it’s terrible as a reddit/social media alternative.
Discord is the same thing as technical slack threads, or IRC chat. People try and use it as a reddit replacement when it really truly is not.
Forget reddit replacement, people try to use it as a wiki/documentation replacement.
Deranged behaviour.
Well modded discord servers for popular topics will have forum channels that behave exactly as you would expect them to. Sure they’re not indexed on search engines, that much is true, but discord isn’t the “blink and you’ll miss it” live chat client that it once was.
I was specifically referring to the forum like sections. The lack of indexing and internet archive means large swaths of knowledge, timelines, history, and even culture will become dust in the wind.
Unfortunately, I feel forum communities have themselves to blame for a lot of people not wanting to interact with their forums.
Essentially, there’s a level of gatekeeping that existed where if you didn’t ask questions the ‘right way’ or even ask the ‘right questions’, you would be flamed and potentially have your post deleted. Some of these people actually believe that if they can’t answer a question, then it’s the fault of the asker and not their own.
Why go through the effort if that’s how the community is going to behave? Sometimes, it’s more fruitful to say nothing than to tear someone down or give wrong information just so you can contribute something.
Discord is nice because of how informal it is, although it’s also getting corrupted by the same autists who need to have everything ‘just’ their way. (referring to things like forcing people to start threads instead of an open room for questions.)
Since when as autism anything to do with this? I’m figuring out but can’t find an answer.
I thought that Slack was what that use case is for. It’s an acronym that stands for Searchable Log of All Communication and Knowledge. I didn’t realize folks were using discord for productivity use cases.
Tons. A special firmware I use for my 3D printer is supported through Discord. All questions and new firmware links are posted there. Even with Slack being “searchable”, unless I am mistaken, it’s not indexed by search engines, right? So when trying to figure something out I would need to search for webpages and then also search Slack right?
Yeah. I’ve come to believe the problem isn’t Discord itself but how people use it. But I totally get your point. So many niche communities. I had to make a Discord account and then someone just fucking answers “!faq” and a bot pastes the answer. Why was that not on their GitHub page? It is what it is.
A Discord server can be created in seconds and can easily have everything they need. I get why they turn to it but it sucks.
This is why agpl exists
This has been going on for decades. CDDB, IMDB, Redhat.
Anything you volunteer for will be monetized and you will get cut off from your own contributions.
Even here on Lemmy people post Twitter images and Reddit reader apps which only helps those platforms retain mindshare even if they aren’t directly profiting with ads.
Oh wow cddb. Completely forgot that was even a thing until just now.
It never stops shocking me that people think they can trust corporations which are run by upper middle class entitled business bros who never worked an honest day in their lives.
Hashicorp recently commandeered its community built products from thousands of contributors by changing open source projects to an ambiguous if not hostile BSL. Opentofu for any current terraform users out there.
Previously named OpenTF, OpenTofu is a fork of Terraform…
🤭 LOL @ the name change.
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Reminds me of OpenMW for Morrowind being listed as “OpenMicrowave” on the Google app store
They didn’t want people think OpenTF meant they were DownTF.
They totally are DTF, they just didn’t want you asking about it.
And still being removed from the store
This is a bit of “no true Scotsman” fallacy. If something you volunteer for hasn’t been monetized you can always say ‘yet’
FOSS is something people volunteer for and it mostly doesn’t get monetized and cut off. Sometimes this means that the original is cut off but a fork lives on, so I would rather say that volunteering for a closed product is dangerous in that regard, not volunteering forany product
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Meh Rehat gets a pass in my mind at least. They give back to the community enough. We are never going to get perfect people or groups. Microsoft is a totally different story.
Your contributions are statistically meaningless unless you write articles attracting at least a couple of scientists. You were doomed to fail from the beginning. And after all, you are only a number in their spreadsheets.
To be fair every FOSS license will prevent a company from having exclusive rights to use your work. Even if you get a bit lax and include MIT and BSD licenses as FOSS, a company still cannot take your work and stop other people from using it.
In the case of Duolingo, it’s pretty different because that volunteer labor output is gated in a proprietary walled garden.
Whereas contributing a patch to chromium for example will never gate that contribution, even if it makes it into chrome and produces millions of dollars of profit for google. You can always and forever freely access and use a version of chromium with your patch as long as there’s still a copy left to access.
Good callout. Even Twitter images shouldn’t be hot linked but copied and pasted for preservation purposes; if a copyright takedown happens, then it happens. But at least we don’t risk having access cut because of a corporate killswitch.
Google has a volunteer program to make their AI better. Fucking one of the biggest corporations in the world asking for free labor and apparently people do it?
You were/are doing it every time you solved a Captcha to prove you aren’t a robot.
Yeah but this is in the area of unpaid labor. You “had to” solve a captcha in order they let you use another service. You are not visiting a page with the sole purpose of voluntarily solving captchas
Google banned 4chan from using recaptcha at the time because everyone was just typing swear words in place of the scanned word that Google couldn’t OCR
Where did you hear about that? It sounds odd, because surely Google could’ve filtered out the swearwords, and at the end of the day users still had to solve the captcha correctly sooner or later if they wanted to post.
The old two word captchas were one word that Google knows in order to test if you’re human, and one word scanned from Google’s book scanning program that their algorithms failed to properly OCR, meaning for the second word you could type in whatever you wanted and you would pass the captcha
Sites were allowed to use recaptcha for free because their users were actually doing work training neural nets to read books better, if a large percentage of their users are saying every unknown scan is the n-word, I could see why Google wouldn’t want them having access to it
Long live 4chan
Duolingo is not a destination, it’s a journey. And their in-house AI is one step above Anki. I can’t believe some people dump duo because it literally got too good.
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is there a non-shitty alternative to use that anyone could recommend? would be really interested.
My library offers Mango Languages.
I started looking for alternatives when they added the weird character voices and I started noticing inaccurate pronunciation of kanji in my Japanese course. A lot of people on the message boards recommended Memrise, and it’s been great! The official courses contain actual video and audio of native speakers, so I knew for a fact the pronunciation would be correct—even better than the old Duo voices!
There’s also user-generated content, too, some of which might not be accurate, but most of the user courses I’ve found are pretty good. You can even make your own set and publish it.
(I haven’t visited the site in a few months, so I can’t guarantee it’ll be exactly as I found it, but I doubt it has changed much)
And depending on what languages you’re studying, you might be able to find some good ones dedicated to your language if you do some digging. For Spanish, I used SpanishDict, and for Japanese, I used Kanshudo (both are freemium, with more restrictions than Memrise)
I should have that pikachu face meme handy.
I gotchu.
Oh look, theft that’s legally protected because something starts making profit! It’s like the existence of the stock market is the central problem with capitalism, since it’s just an excuse to be a shitty person and is only ever used in that capacity. “fuck you, i get more money this way” is a dumb fucking principle to operate a society on. Antisocial, in fact. Google’s IPO can be directly traced to every single problem the internet (and so, society) has right now.
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Capitalism is the problem with capitalism. And It’s not an excuse to be shitty, but the cause itself.
I saw one interview with the CEO on Reddit and deleted the app. The guy is an absolute nonce.
So we’re still using nonce then?
Yes you can tell by the way he used nonce
So long as you keep acting like one.
Are all of us here aware of the meaning of the word ‘nonce’ or are we using it as a different word for “idiot”?
Welcome to the party pal - where you get downvoted because you thought the word used to marginalise gay people had fallen out of favour…along with poof and bender.
For the nonce I’ll go with that.
…nonce means paedophile…
Nonce codes are very important for OAuth2 flows
never give a corporation your labour for free.
People should have known this from the beginning.
Seriously. I don’t know what outcome people expected. Duolingo is not a non-profit, or a community project like Anki. I hope everybody who is surprised by this is receptive to the lesson.
While it is true that corporations are terrible and will do anything in the name of profit, what you guys are saying is “they got fucked and it’s their fault.” It’s not like corporations are some animal who can’t help but be who they are. They are formed by people who choose to fuck other people over for their own benefit. Fuck off with your victim blaming.
Corporations don’t exist in a vacuum. They need to fuck people over or they’ll get outcompeted.
Thieves don’t exist in a vacuum either. So what you’re saying is a thief should rob more, or else other thieves will take what he could have stolen instead, and then he’ll be out of the thieving business? What kind of fucked up bullshit logic is that?
I know corporations are part of reality, but that doesn’t mean they should be excused for profiting on volunteer work. But my point is that the volunteers are being blamed as if they fucked around and now they’re in the stages of finding out, as if they’ve done something so stupid no one would have ever done. Unfortunately, part of reality too is that unless one of these volunteers has sufficient power and money to fight them, corporations like Duo will go on with impunity and they’ll keep fucking people over and others will keep not only justifying them, but also supporting them by buying their products, because it’s just easier to be spineless.
Unless I’m mistaken, I read that as them agreeing with you. They were just pointing out the reality, they didn’t say they agreed with it.
It’s not like corporations are some animal who can’t help but be who they are.
I think you need to read a little more about economics, because this is exactly what they are. In fact, they have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to maximize profits.
That’s for publicly traded companies. Duolingo wasn’t public when OP contributed to it.
It’s not like corporations are some animal who can’t help but be who they are.
That’s exactly what they are. They are composed of people only to the extent that a car is composed of wheels.
If it’s otherwise in working order, a flat tire will be replaced and the car will be going wherever it’s meant to go. Profit city is where all roads lead to, and a flat tire (or four) can only delay for so long.
If you want to hold corporations to moral standards, you have to change the incentives (destinations) and restructure corporations to be actually owned and controlled by people who are then held to those moral standards (put more of the car into the wheels).
they got fucked and it’s their fault
That’s not at all what I’m saying. What I’m saying is people can choose to participate in a community that is controlled by a for-profit company if they want to, but they should temper their expectations accordingly.
Why do you believe non profits are immune to this? They’re still incentivized to produce value. Maybe we just don’t mock volunteers for doing a good thing and instead shame the people taking advantage of them?
I didn’t say nonprofits are immune to it. I essentially said for-profit companies are for-profit. That says nothing about non-profits.
but what if they give you cool digital gems
woo, shiny. my preciousss
Yeah, that’s an offer a man can’t refuse.
These volunteers didn’t think about it in these terms.
They gave away their work for free to help people learn languages, and for a long time Duolingo seemed like the best platform for that.Starting your own platform is much more difficult than contributing to an existing one that seems to be operated with some amount of goodwill…
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I understand that. Unfortunately, though, one has to expect always the worst from Corps, no matter how “good” they appear to be at the beginning.
If we always assumed the worst no one would buy/accomplish anything. This is not a realistic way to live. The best we can expect to do is making the best decision with the information we have at hand at the time. Of course a healthy dose of scepticism isn’t a bad thing either as long as it doesn’t get in the way of living a relatively normal life.
Poor computer literacy is really biting people in the ass. Quotes like this really stand out to me:
Bit by bit all of our work was hidden from us as Duolingo became a publicly-traded company.
Did you not know that they would be able to do this from the start? Or perhaps you knew and were just being extremely naïve? Either way, not being aware of what kinds of control other parties have when you share data with them is something that’s all too common these days. I really wish people would consider the ramifications of what companies can do when you give information like this to them.
Like giving your phone number away for no reason. The moment you share it, you give companies all they need to start spamming the shit out of you (or giving it away to other companies that will happily do it instead). How is a concept like this so hard to understand?
It’s not that they didn’t know that they could. It’s that they didn’t think they would.
Because—and I say this as a user of Duolingo who first started using it after the old comments were made read-only, but before they were removed entirely—it’s fucking insane that they did. Those comments were so useful to the user. I don’t know how many times I went to them to have some aspect of the lesson explained to me because the app itself doesn’t actually do any real “teaching”, it just tells you that you got it wrong and what the right answer is. The comments from users helped explain the nuance in word meaning, or the relevant grammar rule, helping add enormous value. By removing them they are literally making their product worse for no gain.
People thinking that they’d act rationally wouldn’t expect that.
Same for people contributing to google maps
I mean, I do that for me. If I’m going to a road I want the name and address to be right. I use g maps a ton.
I wrote the comment more as throwing some complementary thoughts. I understand how hard it is not to use google when they provide essential services. Regarding maps, I’ve been trying to use openstreetmaps as much as I can, and adding places using streetcomplete, but every now and then, I find myself using google too.
Or Instagram, Facebook, reddit… Lemmy. I guess Lemmy isn’t a company so we have that going but if it’s not your own instance you are technically doing work for someone else.
Lemmy is more akin to helping out a community open-source project than helping out a company
At least Lemmy data is public for anyone to read. I don’t care that much if random groups are sucking up all this data for themselves - it’s worth it in my opinion because it means good actors can use it for good too. If it were all going to one company, I would be less happy about the fact that they could just black hole it all for nobody’s benefit but their own.
I’m contributing to openstreetmap because I think there should be a free alternative to Google or Apple maps.
Am I running the risk of having my contributions stolen?
Not really , they use the Open Data Commons Open Database License which means it can be used commercial but they have to release changes under the same license.
I don’t think so. But people who donated to Mapilary found out it now belongs to Facebook
Is KartaView better in this respect?
I honestly don’t know. It’s open and quite transparent but who knows when will they sell out. I think “Not Facebook” is their best feature
OSM is run by a foundation - https://www.openstreetmap.org/about
This makes it a lot more difficult to cock it up compared to a shareholder run company.
Thanks. I’ll continue my small contributions then.
If anyone want to help I can recommend StreetComplete. It’s a bit like pokemon go, but you’ll help improve the map of the world instead. Only in android now I think.
Downloading now
Ohhh interesting, just grabbed it on F-droid. I’ll be playing around with this for a while.
OSM is good people and very much within the FOSS ethos as far as I can tell. Their Humanitarian work is just awesome: https://www.hotosm.org/
Oh I should do that, I’m often in new builds and redevelopments, I’d think that’s where it’s needed most?
I think it’s needed everywhere. I can start it wherever I happen to be and find a lot of “quests/tasks” to complete.
Thanks yeah I’ve downloded it and there are loads of little quests, I’ll give it a try
Apple Maps is in part based on openstreetmap https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Apple
Mapbox sells your work for a profit.
OSM is the best kind of Open Source.
It CAN be used in commercial products, but any contributions to OSM from those commercial enterprises is still open, so you end up with commercial users contributing to the open system.
I’m in charge of GIS for a city that uses and contributes to OSM and QGIS.
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Here’s the summary for the wikipedia article you mentioned in your comment:
The Open Database License (ODbL) is a copyleft license agreement intended to allow users to freely share, modify, and use a database while maintaining this same freedom for others.ODbL is published by Open Data Commons, which is part of Open Knowledge Foundation.The ODbL was created with the goal of allowing users to share their data freely without worrying about problems relating to copyright or ownership. It allows users to freely use the data in the database, including in other databases; edit existing data in the database; and add new data to the database. The license establishes the rights of users of the database, as well as the correct procedure for attributing credit where credit is due for the data, and how to make changes or improvements in the data, thus simplifying the sharing and comparison of data.
Never ever ever ever ever give your work for free to a startup unless it’s running under an open source model that guarantees even if they do go public, all that work remains openly available to everyone!
I would not do any unpaid work for anything that was not straight up copyleft.
♥️
Nonprofits FTW
“Our non profit pays the ceo $1,900,000 a year. Yaaay”
Oh, there are plenty of counter examples, unfortunately.
Prominent ones?
Same for everything, including open source models
St Jude’s Children Hospital and Goodwill off the top of my head.
I can’t find anything wrong about St. Jude’s.
Everything is bound to have some bad examples. OpenAI and RedHat were also under open source models.
You keep bringing up open source, why? All I did was say that being a non profit isn’t as good an indicator as you might think. How does open source factor in it?
I’m saying that even if it’s not universal, it’s often one of the better indicators.
Yea it’s become highly enshittified and actively punishes users that don’t subscribe. Fuckers.
Can’t speak for the entshitification but actively punished unsubscribed users?
I’ve been using it for two months, learning Germans, I just use Firefox in android instead of the app and I get no ads, only 5 failures but I rarely reach that on a daily basis (I don’t want to burnout and I’m pretty sure it’s better for learning to not go too fast) and if I ever reach it, I currently have 1k gems. I’m actually surprised at how little use I’d get out of the subscription.
I used Duo pretty solid for two or three years - ended up subscribing to it.
The benefits were negligible - the biggest thing for me was offline play. I used to do a lot of air travel, so the ability to cover a subject or two was super helpful.
The streak freeze was the only other real “bonus” for those who game a shit about it. I started to get quite protective of it when it reached four figures, but I kicked it into touch when I wasn’t learning much more than vocabulary. Duo is fantastic for getting a foothold on a language, but it only gets you through the first two or three exchanges of a conversation.
I enjoyed my time with the owl though.
You get streak freezes for free now (through quests), relatively often even, I generally get them back in two days if I use both of them in a weekend because I’m busy.
I really considered subscribing until I started using it on Firefox because of the ads, without the ads it’s a great free experience imo
I’ve got a subscription, I share it with my wife and a couple friends.
I like that it keeps me practicing daily, but I’m not really getting better very quickly, it’s just nice to keep French vocabulary in my active memory and it helps using my brain in the morning to wake up.
Yeah, I did a good three-quarters of the French course too. I distinctly remember the lessons about plays and stage work being an absolute bastard, not that I’d ever use it in my line of work.
I’ve started watching a bit more French media with the French equivalent of “received pronunciation” - such as watching the FR edition of Euronews or France24, plus watching kids shows like Hey Duggee or Paw Patrol is unusually handy, though it does give you some funny looks if you don’t already have kids!
Unfortunately, there’s no substitute for immersion - even on a short break to Paris, my confidence in using the language shot up from being able to just about converse in the language - but more importantly, getting utterly stuck and failing at something where you have to think a bit faster and get your point across anyway.
I should get back into it really.
Sure, the punishment for running out of hearts is they send you to rudimentary prison to repeat disheartening lessons.
I haven’t figured out the heart refresh - do they give you 5 new ones each day?
The ads are loud and awful and start before you can mute them. Can only skip the last few seconds. It’s engineered to be very obnoxious.
They could just have a value added premium but instead they choose to punish.
But good to hear you have managed to mitigate that. Gives me some hope to stick with it, thx.
There’s a loud ad for “Duolingo super” that has a high chance of showing up after every lesson. Also using Firefox with Ublock installed, and it’s still here.
Privacy Badger and ublock origin here, never ever got an ad on Firefox
I’ll try out Privacy Badger. I never got an ad on Firefox except for this one.
I used it to learn German almost ten years ago and it was fantastic. When I started out you had a limited number of lives, but they realized this was not good for learning and removed it. This lead to me learning German on Duolingo very successfully - my approach was to aim over my competence level, do difficult challenges, and keep at them until I managed to do it right. High paced, challenging, generally fun, and extremely educational.
Then they re-implemented the limited number of lives not to increase educational value, but to punish non-paying users. This means that I have to do the lessons slow, even honest typos are punished so I have to read and re-read whatever I write before I can jump to the next challenge, and I cannot ever challenge myself by going beyond my skill level.
I paid for a year of Duolingo, but it’s very expensive, the whole user experience is more annoying to me even for paid users now than it was as a free user in the past, and I don’t like the direction the company has taken and I don’t want to encourage them by paying for they enshittified service. Had they kept trying to make it better for everyone I would have been happy to pay €5, possibly €10, per month for a few extra premium features.
Right now it does really feel to me like they are punishing their users and creating a bad user experience on purpose.
No, they don’t punish typos, to the point I sometimes have mistakes counted as typos (I distinctly remember typing Schwimmt instead of schwimmst the other day and it said Be careful typos, but counted it right, end up having to check with my gf in those cases)
I don’t know why the experience seems so different between people, maybe it actually is, maybe it’s expectations. All in all it’s free, I don’t forget that and through Firefox android I get a very good experience.
There’s pretty odd because it definitely punishes me for typos in french
It was quite lenient with my error-prone French.
That said, Duo is well known for A/B testing so no doubt we were just using different feature sets.
In my experience the typo-tolerance is not very flexible. I write using Dvarok instead of QWERTY, so the typos I make don’t always follow regular patterns. On my phone I use a swipe keyboard, so sometimes a typo comes out as a different word entirely. No matter what I don’t want to be punished for my mistakes, even if they are real mistakes. I just want to keep on learning without the tool I’m using intentionally trying to make that harder for me.
You’re getting a lot of benefit out of running the desktop site with an ad blocker. App users aren’t so lucky.
And I’m not using anything not available to app users, unless you’re using IOS but at this point, I think you have others problems to worry about experience wise overall
DNS based ad blocking my friend. System wide
It stopped working. They figured out a way around it 😢 Fortunately I found a cracked version of the premium APK so now I get ad free and unlimited hearts without paying a dime (I didn’t necessarily care about the unlimited hearts but the ads were fucking obnoxious). I might still look into another system though because they keep reshuffling the format, and I don’t feel like I’m progressing.
Fun fact, if you want to bypass the hearts system you can go to Duolingo For Schools and create a classroom with only yourself in it. There is zero verification.
It affects the desktop and mobile app. I think it might also hide ads but I’m not 100% sure about that, it’s been awhile since I’ve used it.
Gems? I’m out.
