When you’re talking to an open source dev, just remember that they are literally giving you their time for free, and they are people who don’t like to be treated poorly.
Edit: Just to be clear, I don’t mean any ill will toward the guy. He’s frustrated and he’s just taking it out in the wrong venue at the wrong people, but that doesn’t mean he’s a bad person.
Edit 2: The reinstalling he’s talking about is NPM. So just running npm install. It’s because he tried removing the node_modules directory, which is a reasonable thing to do, but it means you need to reinstall the modules with that command.
There is always a risk using libraries from others. If you install something without knowing what you are doing and without considering the risks, you should not be installing it.
You are literally sending 99% of the new Linux users back to Windows haha. C’ mon its not that hard, look at what custom ROM developers do. They put a big disclaimer warning of the risks of installing the software. You won’t find a single user blaming the devs for a bricked phone, and there are lot of them. The one who has to consider the risks and warn about them is the dev, just because (s)he is the one who knows the software better and not all users are developers and they usually don’t know what are the risks.
You can install shit in Windows too, it is exactly the same case when grandma installs too many toolbars in Internet Explorer 6. No one is warning you there that you might be installing malware.
What I mean is that there are already curated repositories for each distro that can be accessed easily by the package manager. If you go outside of your package manager and repos, gloves are off, you better know what you are doing.
Regarding custom ROMs, since you brought it up and being a custom ROM enthusiast, there are still a lot of complaints, nastiness and pressure from the users similar to this. Installing a ROM has definitely a higher knowledge barrier and that makes you aware of the risks, also you will brick your phone before you are able to install a ROM… if you don’t know what you are doing.
Finally, the developer here in this very lemmy post mentions that the OP of that bug report was working with them in order to solve the issue. The one on the screenshot was just a random dude unnecessarily being rude. Free software is usually delivered as is with no warranties, specifically small projects and libraries.
Thanks for coming to my TED.talk
Don’t be that second guy, use Nix.
I agree with OP, but the whole confrontation could’ve been avoided in the first place if all dependencies were spelled out to the letter in the form of a flake.nix with the latest accompanying flake.lock file.
Upvoted in Nix solidarity. One day they’ll understand.
I think it’s funny. We are the new “I use Arch, BTW” and I’m happy to embrace it.
I just hate having to re-configure all my stuff whenever I set up a new box 🤷
Agreed. That and I hate Docker with a burning passion.
As someone who is out of the loop a lot, what is it about Docker that you hate? What do you use instead?
It took me weeks to wrap my head around it, but now I enjoy being able to spin something up without too much work. At work we have the whole CICD thing with Docker and K8, but I am pretty far removed from what they have to do in the run files.
What other kinds of workflows do people use these days?
Nix flakes are all I need to completely replace Docker.
I swear Nix users are the mormons of the Linux world.
I’m a nix user and I’m disappointed by how apt this comparison is.
ehehehe you said “apt”
Did you get it?
I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE KIND SIR I DID GET YOUR SUBTLE REFERENCE
They’re worse than us Arch users (btw)
@AlmightySnoo @Ashiette us for USA or for us? :stallman:
Yes
As a former arch user, I advocate for both XD
Guilty. But substitute Mormonism with the proper way to do things.
That just sounds like Amish with more tech.
🤣 Perfect!
Yes, but one of our promises is real… Just a real pain in the ass sometimes.
Are you saying that I will get my own planet if I use Nix?
It’s a frontend JavaScript UI library. I can’t control what other dependencies people install alongside my library, or even whether they follow my library’s dependency list.
Are you sure about that?
Isn’t package.json for controlling what dependency versions people install with?
I think I’m missing something.
Yes, and I have a package.json that lists dependencies and the versions I test with. You can force a different version though. I don’t think that’s what happened here. I’m guessing it’s a version of some dependency that should work, because it was released as a minor version within the range I specified, but doesn’t actually work.
It could also be an issue with the build system/bundler, which I can’t really control either.
Yeah JavaScript is a horrible language and ecosystem in a lot of ways, but package.json and friends don’t really give me much trouble.
And even if you hose something, you should be able to clear it out and reinstall easily.
I’m assuming the maintainer didn’t (knowingly) make a breaking change in a minor/patch release. That’s a high crime.
It’s way worse on C and it’s family. I still have nightmares with undocumented embedded dependencies that are so intertwined with the codebase that make JS look like a godsend.
Don’t be the guy who ignores reports that your software doesn’t work with new dependency versions just because you can’t be arsed to test with anything else even if the report looks like a legitimate problem.
I have been testing with the original reporter of the problem. This guy came in, said he had the same problem, then cursed at me.
That was less directed at you and more at the idea that just pinning versions solves the issue which is unfortunately very frequent among proponents of things like vendoring, nix, Docker containers and similar tools that allow a project to stay on an old version for potentially years. Sorry if that came across that way.
If you’re not paying somebody, don’t expect anything. You want shit done on your time, then cough up some compensation.
The self entitlement in open-source these days never fails to astound me.
Nowhere else do people get so much for free and yet be so entitled. It’s rough.
As a maintainer of open-source projects, I can confirm… It’s unforunate lol
You are wasting my time! I demand a refund, where is open source’s manager!?
See also: the hard parts of open source.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
the hard parts of open source.
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I just watched this, it was a very good video, experienced a lot of the same things he did/does, thx. Was really interesting learning about the history of some these “alienated loner with god-complex” that was cultivated in early tech. Also good stuff about how the purpose for a given space shapes the discussion and interactions.
A lot of us understand the problem: that silicon-valley, in pursuit of profits and engagement, has wrecked peoples brains with traumatizing ragebait for years, and how stressful it makes all of our lives. We have to do everything we can to make these spaces the opposite: enjoyable, fun, and at the same time not addictive.
Be him
Be useless to everyone
Use someones open source project
b***h about it
(Lemmy is removing the b word thats why i put it like that)
Why is your comment blank
Is it dont know why man it is what it is i guess maybe an issue on your end ? not sure
Time to put in a bug report on the sync app!
Great now I have to spend my whole life reinstalling it
It took me THIS LONG to understand the genius of your comment. The joke took me 12 hours lmao
It’s not Lemmy; it’s the instance you’re using.
“Lemmy” isn’t, afaik. Certain instances seem to have profanity filters. Probably not a great word to use in general, though.
Just meant it like b*****g about it not trying to offend anyone but that guy
Being offensive and trying to be offensive are not mutually inclusive. And I wasn’t intending that as a personal rebuke or anything. Just commenting that, in the context of profanity censors, that is a word usually better left unsaid anyhow. Sorry if it came off as a comment on you specifically.
> not know how to use meme arrows
rofl “meme arrows”
> implying
Nope, it’s just that message boards can’t md properly.
Fixed
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It depends on if the first guy is complaining about having to reinstall this specific software, or if the software borked his entire system to the point that he has to reinstall his entire OS. Because that happened to me once. But in the first scenario he is being a dick, and in the second one not so much.
In this case, in trying to resolve the issue, he deleted his
node_modulesdirectory. So he’s talking about having to reinstall everything by typingnpm installand waiting for it to finish.Wait till they realize that’s literally the solution to a lot of Node related issues. It’s in its own folder for a reason.
oh man…
People can be such dicks, you have my sympathy.
I’ve been thinking about open sourcing a Node project of mine recently… concerning that this is the kind of thing to expect
Well, this isn’t usual. This is actually really rare. Almost all of the interactions I have with users of my libraries are great. People are generally appreciative and kind, or at least not rude. This is an outlier, and I try not to let these things sour my experience.
He’s frustrated and he’s being abrasive because of that, but that doesn’t make him a bad person. I try to respond without being rude back, but just stern. Usually when you do that, people will either not respond again or apologize. I’ve never had a user keep being rude, and if I did, I would just ban them.
Sometimes people just kinda forget that on the internet they’re still talking to other real people, you know?
You’re lucky. I left FOSS dev because I got tired of my free time being abused by people like the one in your post
I’ve had to adopt a two strikes policy towards these aggressive trolls, who treat you like your their personal servant, especially since they make up like <1% of ppl on issue trackers. After a warning, if they don’t play nice, then they’re out.
It’s the only way to keep the coding experience enjoyable, and not suffer from burnout.
You’re taking a far calmer approach than i could ever take.
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I disagree, in neither scenario the open source dev owes him anything. You get to use and modify the software for free, but the flip side is you are entitled to nothing.
You’re not entitled to a working computer once you execute a free program?
Honestly, no. It’s your job to vet the software you run. If it’s open source, you had every chance to make sure it wasn’t going to irreversibly break your system ahead of time.
Alternatively, you could pay money for a solution from a reputable company with support.
You’re implying that to even install the simplest of programs, I’d need to read and understannd many thousands of lines of code, starting with the FOSS project itself and then spidering out to every dependency. This speaks nothing of the fact that it may be written in multiple languages, some of which I am not familiar with, and even if I am, code can be written in ways that’s almost impossible to understand. This might take a week for a 200 line project.
Reminds me of when my employer said they were going to stop using open source software until a team had vetted it completely. Lol, once they talked to engineers that idea died immediately.
That’s absolutely a ridiculous stance. Yes, you can personally go through everything, but there’s also searching around to find out what other people say about it, actually look through the issues people have raised. Some of it applies to proprietary software as well, find out what other people say about the software. You don’t need to do everything yourself, but you do have to take responsibility for trying to make sure it will work as you hope it will.
Whoosh
Who put the gun to your head and made you run the software though?
The response to this here is absolutely wild. I guess I should expect my machine to get wiped any moment
Whenever you choose to run a program that has full access to parts of your PC that may cause issues, you are the person who chose to do so.
Just run apps in a sandbox if you don’t want to risk having to reinstall your OS in a worst case scenario.
The developer owes you nothing.
This. I swear, some people in the FOSS community seem to be convinced everyone who uses a computer is a developer.
Right? And it seems like no one is interested in understanding my point, most only seem interested in defending developers of FOSS. I understand there is no legal obligation from FOSS devs… That is irrelevant.
I love FOSS. It’s one of the best products of humanity. I am not attacking devs at all…
My point was only that while devs don’t owe anyone anything legally, if the rare edge case happens where their code is destructive by accident, it would be a dick move to ignore complaints about it. I guess because it didn’t spell it all out like this, I “deserved” all the downvotes (on since-deleted comments) and condescending remarks?
Yes I know that if I use Firefox I can’t sue them if somehow they wipe my OS. Yes I know that would probably never happen, it’s extremely unlikely to happen. But if it did, FF owes us at least a response. And I means owes in the sense that it’s the right thing to do, not “if you don’t do it I can sue you”.
I can see how you got there, but I’m actually not saying you need to understand any programming languages at all. If the code is out there, and the product is worthwhile, the community can and will vet it.
Like I responded to the other guy, you put a level of trust in anything you use. You can pay for a product and expect polish and support, or you can go the open source route, the DIY hobbyist route, and expect to have to do more yourself. You might have to do research on a product before you trust it. This isn’t a radical concept to me. If I was putting together an RC car, I would do research on the motor to make sure it was unlikely to fail catastrophically.
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By this definition of entitled, I’m not entitled to be alive once I walk outside, because I should have known the risk ahead of time.
Lol what the fuck?
Alternatively, you could pay money for a solution from a reputable company with support.
and run the possibly even greater risk that it’ll fuck something up, since you probably can’t even look at their source
??? You quoted my comment with ‘reputable’ in it. You put a level of trust in anything you use. Reputable companies are unlikely to fuck your shit up with bad software. It happens - not trying to say it doesn’t - but again, you have to trust somewhere.
If that’s what you get from a paid product, why would you assume it’s better for a free product?
I guess you are not entitled free support once you execute a free program
I can’t say I’ve spoken directly to a dev in a situation like that, thankfully, but if that opinion were dominant, FOSS wouldn’t be a thing. Destroying your data or OS is kind of a no-no, whether you pay for the software or not. Obviously, you can’t sue the FOSS dev, but come on, it’d be amazingly shitty if they didn’t even try to help if there’s any evidence it’s their fault.
Do most open source projects damage your computer? It’s obvious they put effort into making usable programs.
Of course not!
The software is almost certainly provided as is, with risks assumed by the person installing it.
Still, I doubt any dev wants a catastrophic outcome and takes steps to avoid that or warn the end user if the code is more likely to bork something.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect the dev to do their best but it’s also not like you can sue them and win, most likely.
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This is the exact point I’m trying to make, to the word.
Your earlier comment was the exact opposite in most people’s eyea.
You are entitled to the truth. If the dev knows their software could have very damaging effects then that should be front and center on the software page.
Usually it is? But ultimately it’s still your own responsibility. You did not pay the dev, the dev does not ask you to pay them, ergo the dev owes you diddly squad.
Let’s be decent with each other, I don’t think my expectations are outrageous. I consider decent to make sure that the person that will use your software is aware of the dangers. And the best person to know those dangers is usually the dev.
Malware is free too
Malware is not usually open source.
@[email protected] not open source is usually malware
No. It’s provided without warranty nor guarantee that it’ll work or even leave your system intact. That’s the core of most opensource licenses. Dev owes nobody nothing.
I didn’t say anyone owed anyone anything. I was saying one level of frustration was understandable, one was not. Anyhow, my case happened twenty years ago when creative commons barely existed.
Then you’re right. The frustration would be understandable, the expression thereof towards the developer, not.
what’s with the link in every comment? just curious
It’s a non-commercial copyleft licence for the comment in case the case against Microsoft’s CoPilot is won.
I don’t quite understand, why would Microsoft sue you for a lemmy comment?
Just to be sure, is this a serious question or a troll?
YOU 👏 ARE 👏 NOT 👏 OWED 👏 CUSTOMER 👏 SERVICE 👏 FOR 👏 USING 👏 THIS 👏 SOFTWARE 👏
YOU 👏 ARE 👏 NOT 👏 OWED 👏 A 👏 WARRANTY 👏
Don’t like it? Pay for your software :)
The nightmare just crawls out to our reality when paid software is less developed on and more buggy than free Open Source software.
That’s because the people making it are doing it for a job rather than for the love of it. (Except me. Surely I don’t do that.)
Did you know that “payed” is a naval term. See Grammarly on Payed for more information
Haha whoops. Thanks
The funny thing is that since it’s an actual word the spell checker might not be of any use to see that it might not be the word you’re actually wanting to use. And with the amount of people using “payed” instead of “paid” the dictionaries will probably include “payed” as an alternative way to conjugate “to pay” in the currency sense.
Uh. The spell checker doesnt work on my phone either way. I got lazy to fix anything on my GrapheneOS
Don’t like it? Pay for your software :)
Most people happily will. So the year of the Linux desktop will always be n+1
I agree, BUT, you should pay anyways. FOSS developers should be paid
Show me your winrar license!
It is not FOSS, so I don’t pay for it. Checkmate :)
I only used winrar when I was a kid. I’ve been using linux (and macos) for most of my life and before that I used 7zip for my zipping needs, so no winrar license for me.
I sometimes feel like I am the only one with that file. Yes sir, I sometimes feel sad when a good piece of software doesn’t have a donation button or license to buy. Even if it does nothing.
Ditched Windows long ago though.
Yes sir, I sometimes feel sad when a good piece of software doesn’t have a donation button or license to buy
Yep, I feel that too. There is too much gratis software that’s actually good and I want to pay for but many FOSS developers are scared to ask for money for some reason
I really want to donate to ublock origin, but they don’t take donations.
Now flathub has a built-in donate button (for some software)!
It would be great if it is implemented in gnome software too, so I don’t need to search on flathub to donate to developers.
I wish nix had something similar as I rarely use flatpaks
Me approaching Foss developer with bug: Pardon me, if you could grace this lowly worm with but a moment of your attention; I with me a bug report, and I believe I have found the section of code responsible. This inadequate being lacks the technical expertise to fix it and would be eternally indebted if you would turn your monumental skills upon its trifling problems. It would please me immensely if my paltry efforts were of some assistance.
This user: SOFTWARE NO WORK FUCK YOU!
😆 this is legitimately a work of art
And yet, this is the issue that gets a response instead of a silent closed offtopic wontfix.
It is, until it isn’t. I’ve seen devs delete or abandon their projects because of too mush abuse. Nobody likes being yelled at. (Unless that’s your kink. I won’t judge.)
Or even worse:
Thanks. Send a complete log of every software on your system, two videos of the bugs in action, and a detailed analysis of what you’ve had for breakfast.
Even if that was true effectiveness is never acceptable justification for cruelty
Never is a strong word when a collection of people all came together and agreed that Windows 10 should force updates.
Oh destroy property or whatever just don’t be cruel to people :p
You’ve clearly never worked with any psychopaths or narcissists. Often, pointed (though importantly, carefully offline and undocumented) cruelty is one of the only ways to effectively punch back and make people like that stop trying to fuck with you, because many people like that only really respond to threat dynamics. It’s not terribly common, and it’s not fun to do, but it definitely is warranted once in a blue moon.
When you have blocked most of the troll instances and have no idea what’s going on in these comments
How do you know that someone is on a blocked instance?
If you look at the number of comments Lemmy says there are, versus the number of comments visible, the difference is how many people from blocked instances there are.
I’ve seen one post where it said there were 51 comments, but none would appear for me. That’s because all of the comments were from instances blocked or defederated by my instance.
Makes sense, thanks for the explanation
Don’t worry: I intend to NEVER be that guy. I don’t even USE the word ‘literally’ except ironically, so I think I’m safe.
I’ve literally never used the word “literally” unironically in my life
this sort of stuff is rampant. A few years old but it makes my blood boil every time I think about it.
Tool Creator should work on this, it ain’t making no sense that the default json file (Google) is not updated cause seeing that work on Google tells us that it definitely works on all sites
@drk1wi please resolve google.json file to stop this cookie disabled error
Seems minor but the tone of the demand is wildly entitled.
Being polite is better than not being polite, but the way I see it, all user complaints are valid and are better not taken personally if possible. Maybe you as the developer didn’t do anything wrong that contributed to their problem, or are not actually in a position to resolve whatever their problem is, but it’s worth keeping in mind the bigger picture: how well peoples computers work to benefit their lives.
If someone is getting upset that they have to spend time troubleshooting, maybe because they didn’t understand something or made a mistake, there’s definitely other people going through the exact same less-than-ideal experience and not saying anything about it. That’s information about the state of how well things are working and it’s better for it to be out there in some form than not.
Yeah, I didn’t take it personally. He’s just venting, but doing it toward the person trying to help you is unhelpful. That’s why I posted here, basically saying to remember that you’re talking to a person, not a punching bag.
Nah - don’t make excuses for them. Here in Australia, we call entitled people like this cunts. With a hard ‘c’. Not the nice one, with a soft ‘c’.
Sunts?
I see this in the comments section of Skyrim mods and it pisses me off so much
Worse, I see this with Fediverse platforms like Lemmy. During the initial Reddit influx so many people expected the exact level of polish and user experience as Reddit and there were tons of threads (on Lemmy itself) basically complaining how much Lemmy “sucks” compared to Reddit, despite them coming over to Lemmy because Reddit was being enshitified. Same with Mastodon when the Twitter people were coming over.
I mean to be fair it’s still terrible. Better than the early days and in my opinion better than using Reddit which is why I’m here. But basic functionality is just awful. Trying to discover new content outside of your particular instances incredibly tedious. So many large instances won’t stop trigger happy Banning practically every other goddamn instance out there which isn’t helping. The whole thing that originally made Reddit popular was that it was an easy place to go to find almost any topic of Interest but I now have to hunt through many different instances to potentially find what I’m looking for on top of that the community for any one particular interest could easily be scattered across multiple different instances that don’t Federate with each other and if I subscribe to all of them I’m going to likely be subjected to a lot of repeating posts
I fully understand why a lot of people were not on board with that I put up with it because I hate Reddit more than I hate that but a lot of people will not share that opinion
Keep in mind though that Lemmy is very much still in open beta while Reddit has been a mature product for years now. Lemmy only started federating like two years ago, and even compared to other Fediverse platforms Lemmy is still very new. Most of the “must have” features people associate with Reddit took a while to materialize as well, in fact when Reddit launched it didn’t have subreddits or even nested comments on posts. Not saying your grievances are invalid, but give it time and things will improve as Lemmy gets more development.
IIRC it always had threaded comments but yes subreddits took years. Shamefully I was very much in the anti subreddit camp and argued fiercely for tags instead like Flickr (RIP)
Lemmy with Sync is pretty baller though not sure what everyone is complaining about.
It’s every game and the bigger the community the lower the denominator.
User: “I have to waste my whole life fixing this” Dev: “you are complaining that you have to spend a few minutes”
Savage.
