there is a large correlation between atheism and IQ
stupid people are unable to discern whether science or The Bible is correct. This applies to other religious books as well.
One the one hand, 99.9 percent of scientists say the earth is round, on the other hand this really old book says it’s flat. If you are surrounded by believers and are stupid, you may actually lack the intellectual ability to discern which information is more likely to be true.
on occasion, intelligent people may be choosing to be delusional, letting these delusions protect them from the harsh realities of nature.
Maybe in a couple hundred years more. Indoctrination is very hard to shake from people.
Because religion provides comfort, community and a meaning to people’s existence that goes beyond “we were born of chance on an insignificant rock somewhere in the universe”.
(I’m not religious BTW)
It also exists to control people, and it still works.
Organised religion is always about power and money.
Not always, but the ones that aren’t about that are much smaller. E.g. I know a little community of christ church that is very simple and they rotate through the sermon and then have a friendly morning tea after. I’m not religious but it’s the only church I’ve been to where I kinda enjoyed it and I think it does just bring community and no harm. That being said, it’s a fringe denomination and isn’t really growing, because it’s not trying to force itself on others
Both talking about capitalism here, right ?
Because humans are animals, ruled by emotion and superstition.
People want to belong to something bigger than them. This includes a magical cloudy sky kingdom where you must wear white shrouds, and your whole family is there and not talking about embarrassingly antiquated political views
Organized religion or religion in a spiritual sense? I do believe there is some higher power that created matter and the laws of physics. But I don’t believe they care or even know about us.
Do you believe this for any particular reason, or just because it is psychologically reassuring? I’m not trying to be a smartass, I’m honestly curious about your perspective.
I’ve watched about 1000 hours of the Atheist Experience, Aron Ra, Cosmic Skeptic, Christopher Hitchens, and just about every popular religious apologist you can think of too. I’ve never hear a single compelling argument for creationism (I know you are talking about creation in the more macro sense, I don’t think you’re a young earth creationist).
The only one I’ve ever seen that was even worth giving serious thought is the Kalam Cosmological Argument, which I find to be deeply flawed as well, it is simply the least bad argument. So my ultimate question to you would be this: If there is a “higher power” that created the universe as we know it, but that higher power is completely indistinguishable from the laws of nature as we observe them then why believe and why care?
Well I’m not opposed to the idea that we(the universe)were created by accident. Maybe we are a simulation, maybe I’m the creator of the universe and everything is just my brains imagination.
I don’t really know or put much thought into it, but I can’t just think. Matter was just there. Like the bug bag happened with nothing before it.
Like even the vacume of space is some thing.
So your claim is that tge universe had a beginning? To me, the universe having existed forever, and it starting to exist at some point with nothing, not even time before makes just as little sense.
Really, things existing at all makes little sense, it would make much more sense if nothing existed. But that is at odds with what I observe.
I think part of it has to do with how we cope with death. Almost all religions are centered around what happens when we die. Whether it’s reincarnation or an afterlife, most believe that there’s something beyond. I think that to a certain extent we’re predisposed to have this mindset.
Tradition and support in major life events. A lot of people who only go to churches for weddings, baptisms and funerals.
This is such a complicated question because it gets into the origins of religion and belief systems in general, but also power and class struggles, economics, social psychology and propaganda, and more.
Lots of people haven’t been properly educated Lots of people have been indoctrinated Lots of people have a reason to exploit the beliefs of others Lots of people value comfort and community above scientific accuracy or consistency
Can you refine your question a bit?
Do millions just want to ignore science?
You seems to love these flat, oversimplified questions :)
(Or why don’t you just ask these millions of people?)
…why don’t you just ask…
Good idea, maybe using some sort of widely-available service in a section where “ask” is part of the name. Might not reach every demographic equally but it’s easier and less expensive than hiring an army to conduct door-to-door surveys.
Why would you think science and religion are irreconcilable? Or are you thinking of one church in particular?
Adding to this comment: Science is fundamentally agnostic. You can even go so far as to say that the existence of God or a higher power is the one question which is forever doomed to be unanswerable by science and logic, almost by definition of God.
Of course, specific parts of the mythos of specific religions can and have been contradicted by science. But the main question of whether or not a higher power exists remains and will forever remain unanswerable.
It’s funny how it works one way and not the other. If we had even a hint of positive evidence for God you would never stop hearing about it. But since we don’t we are told that we have to pretend this is outside our knowledge. Heads I win, tails you lose.
They are irreconcilable. People who try to merge the two are using double-think also known as cognitive dissonance. I know, I did it for years.
Religions make claims and the evidence more often than not doesnt support the claims being true. You are free to try to square the circle, but you will fail. And the extent of your failure will be the effort you put in.
Just to poke at Buddhism. Sidrattha made claims about the geography of the world, those are not true and we have lots of good data backing up a round world. He made claims about rebirth and the soul which logically contradict each other.
I have to imagine you’re not an American, because yeah, millions of Americans legitimately want to ignore science completely. They’re pretty loud about it too.
I’m an American. The religious people here are terrifying.
I find the prevalence of faith makes more sense if you think of it like a living organism. It only exists because it’s built to exist. If it didn’t, it would die.
That’s why faiths often have rules around birth control and sex out of wedlock. Kids often take the beliefs of their parents, so the religion has to keep ‘traditional’ families together to keep itself alive. It’s also why they threaten eternal damnation if you drop the faith or don’t try to force it on the people around you. A lot of this often isn’t the conscious effort of the members, it just kinda slowly crops up, like evolutionary mutations. Key word there being ‘often’, as I’m sure members of these religions have also figured this out but have used it to their own advantage.
That’s a meme. A belief that spreads and evolves in human minds.
…So Jesus was a memelord?
Humans are not rational creatures, and despite all the knowledge we have gained, people will still find what they want to be true the most believable of all
Besides, you can talk about all of the science we have discovered, but the overwhelming majority of people don’t really see it. We see the technology and all that, but we don’t truly understand it, so you ultimately are just taking someone else’s word for it. To me, the word of the scientific community is credible, but to some it is not
Some people are flat-earthers. People aren’t swayed by reason. We’re dumb animals, and the conceit of us as “rational” is hubris
Existence is meaningless and we just wobble around here for a little while and then we die. There’s nothing to it. Everything that happens is just a logical consequence; beauty is nothing but a tiny chemical reaction in your brain. Once you rot it’s all worthless.
Science is great at giving explanations, but not so good at providing meaning. For a lot of people, meaning is probably more helpful in order to facilitate a happy life.
Nietzsche writes at length about this stuff, most famously in the anecdote about the madman coming down from the mountain to inform the villagers that God is dead and that we have killed him. Everybody knows the three words “God is dead”, but I think it’s worth reading at length:
God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?
Nietzsche, whose father was a priest, recognizes that “God has become unbelievable”, but he does not celebrate it as the progress of science. Rather, we lost something that was fundamentally important to humans, and which science cannot easily replace.
Here one could start talking about the Free Masons, who attempted learning from religious rituals without the added layer of religion. Or one could dig deeper into the works of Nietzsche, and the contrast between Apollonian and Dionysian. It’s all fascinating stuff.
In short though, spirituality used to offer people a sense of meaning that is not so easily replaced by science alone. How do we bury our dead now that we know our rituals are pointless?
Very well written, and insightful. Thanks for sharing this perspective in the discussion as I personally found it very valuable. You articulated my own perspective on this much better than I could have, and gave some great philosophical background to boot. 10/10 👍
Thank you for your insightful perspective.
“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.”-Voltaire
Says the man who rigged the lottery. We don’t need god anymore than we need cancer
Why not? It makes sense to me, it carried me through some very difficult times and is a good way to think about how I interact with the world and my moral framework.
Because it turns out that conforming to what your parents and your community believe is way more influential to the average person than objective truth.
Exactly. Where I grew up you would have nothing without your family, and they are all rabid believers. So the choices are toe the line or abandon it all.
For me, religion at its essence is about the fear of death.
Many people cannot process the idea that one day, they will just…end.
Religion is there to give a comforting notion that their existence will continue.
A comfortable delusion to soothe the existential dread and remove some measure of accountability for one’s actions.
P sure it makes people more accountable based on what they do in their life. (provided they aren’t deluded to the point of doing horrific things for the sake of religion)
I see absolutely no evidence this is true, and plenty of evidence to the contrary. So we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
I’m going to make the argument from an Islamic standpoint mainly bc I am Muslim and have a background in it from both a religious and academic (it was one class at college but I learned a lot) side. Day of judgement is a thing, basically to get into heaven: pray to god, don’t be a shitty person.
That being said, you can see shit like terrorist attacks that would convince you otherwise. Terrorist attacks are basically “martyrdom” (read: fanaticism) where fighting for a religion would “theoretically” bring you in the good graces of the things you believe in. In reality, they just murdered people because they thought they deserved it and it would punish the people who are doing it when in reality it doesn’t work like that.
But the “don’t be a shitty person” is just an action, what’s the reasoning/intention behind it. Like you can do good things for society for a multitude of reasons, bc it is a good cause to contribute to society for, it will get you into heaven, fame, a diversion from something else etc. Religious people just have one extra reason to be a decent person.
You don’t have to follow religion to be a “decent” person and religion doesn’t automatically make you a “decent person”. I’ve met wonderful people who were both religious and not, and shitty people who were religious and not religious.
There’s a lot more to Islam that I don’t think I can unpack in a comment, and it’s tied to societal norms etc.
All I can really ask of anyone is don’t be a shitty person.
