@wrath-sedan@kbin.social Defederate with any instance Meta has infected - including any instance at Mastodon who thinks this is a good idea. I left FB years ago because of this and their boosting of the alt-right
Sooo, literally everything. Are there even any categories left out? That seems pretty comprehensive.
Maybe, just maybe, they won’t collect your “permanent record” from grade school.
@wrath-sedan@kbin.social ha yeah I noticed that too. I’m out of the loop, is Threads for sure their ActivityPub project, or is that a separate thing?
It’s using ActivityPub. It’s interesting because Bluesky (basically, former Twitter) explicitly stated that they didn’t think AP was robust enough and created their own shitty protocol. Facebook might be one of the first traditional SNS platforms to experiment with AP. I would’ve been happier if it were Tumblr, who said they were working on implementing AP last year.
I wonder how much of the recent Twitter drama has influenced Facebook’s decision to release Threads so soon after its announcement. It’s probably going to be shit quality and just try and monopolize on people leaving Twitter but not wanting to jump to Mastodon.
Ok interesting. I need to read up more on it, I wonder what benefit Meta gets from building on or integrating with AP. Like a short term image / branding thing, or a longer play because there is some fear of what the fediverse could turn into without them.
That’s pretty much what the controversy is about. People are, rightfully, afraid that Facebook will dominate AP and eventually destroy it (akin to Google and XMPP[1]). There are also those who, also rightfully, believe that this will help adoption of the AP protocol and bring innovation into the Fediverse (maybe like podcasting and Apple Podcasts have done for RSS). Both are valid, and we as members of the community and those who develop for this space should be cautious of corporate intrusion leading the innovation.
[1] https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
Great article. Thanks for sharing. Yep seems like they are coming for the 3 E’s.
Absolutely have to love all of the people on mastodon especially being like “but this makes the fediverse bigger what can go wrong” takes.
I think it’s a valid take to have. If it makes it possible to follow more people from my Mastodon account who I want to follow, that seems like a good thing. I won’t be making an account there, but I think I’d like to at least have the option to follow the people who do.
The MO for large companies who use open standards like this is to use the sheer gravitational pull of their ad dollars to get most people to sign up on ActivityPub, then change their own code just enough to break the experience for anyone trying to read their content from any other instance website or app.
If that happens, won’t we just be back to how things are now? People like you and me who are already here probably won’t be making accounts on Threads, it will be pulling in new people who wouldn’t have joined the fediverse otherwise. If they break something in their implementation of ActivityPub, we’ll just be separated from them again which doesn’t seem different from the current situation. The open source ActivityPub protocol we all currently rely on cant be taken away, so the independent instances we’re already using should be fine too.
Research what happened with XMPP thanks to Google. It’s the same thing here.
I might be missing your point since I never used it, but looking around their website and reading Wikipedia, it doesn’t look like a dead standard. Looking from the outside in, it seems like Google adopted the protocol and brought a lot of new users with them, and when they dropped it in 2013, they took those users with them again.
It does feel very similar to ActivityPub today, but in a way that seems to support the point I was making. Correct me if im wrong, but it seems the people using XMPP through Google Talk signed up to use a Google service, while those who joined through independent providers did it for XMPP itself. Even with Google gone, it looks like those other providers continue to function and the protocol remains relevant to the people who want to use it, similar to ActivityPub right now.
It’s basically in zombie mode right now. Most of the users left except for those on WhatsApp.
I think mostly 50/50 between both camps, at least on my instance.
I was unsure at first, but given the history of big names killing federated projects, well. I’d rather not risk it.
You must be completely crazy to give away your medical information, because sooner or later someone is going to sell your data to an insurance company near you and your next contract will cost you a fortune. You will never know why, who or when, but your insurance company will know everything about your medical situation before making you an offer.
- User content
- Other data
As much as it already frustrates me how much they surveil their own users, these two concern me personally. I guarantee meta will feel 100% entitled to not only their own users’ content, but that of federated posters as well. Without any kind of privacy guarantee as a federated contributor, I don’t think Meta should federated with just yet.
So Google was really embracing the federation. How cool was that? It meant that, suddenly, every single Gmail user became an XMPP user. This could only be good for XMPP, right? I was ecstatic.
.
First of all, despites collaborating to develop the XMPP standard, Google was doing its own closed implementation that nobody could review. It turns out they were not always respecting the protocol they were developing.
Federation was sometimes broken: for hours or days, there would not be communications possible between Google and regular XMPP servers. The XMPP community became watchers and debuggers of Google’s servers, posting irregularities and downtime
And because there were far more Google talk users than “true XMPP” users, there was little room for “not caring about Google talk users”
.
In 2013, Google realised that most XMPP interactions were between Google Talk users anyway. They didn’t care about respecting a protocol they were not 100% in control. So they pulled the plug and announced they would not be federated anymore.
As expected, no Google user bated an eye. In fact, none of them realised. At worst, some of their contacts became offline. That was all. But for the XMPP federation, it was like the majority of users suddenly disappeared. Even XMPP die hard fanatics, like your servitor, had to create Google accounts to keep contact with friends. Remember: for them, we were simply offline. It was our fault.
https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
Damn, is there anything they don’t want to know?
What you think of them.
I’d say blood type and sex life, but that’s probably under the “other information” category.
Well, blood type can be set under Health in iOS, so they‘ll probably know at least that since they ask for Health & Fitness info.
Blood type: Caffeinated.
If that’s not an option, I don’t want to play.
They definitely want to know about your sex life. Advertisers want to target pregnant/expecting women, happily married people, unhappily married people, men in dry spells, gay men, lesbians, kinksters and so on. Even if they’re not marketing sexual products, advertisers will want to target those groups.
I know I know… joking but not joking, there. What else should we expect from the company that tried to intentionally induce depression in users just to see if they could?
Nothing would get me to delete my account quicker than federating with a Meta instance.
kbin probably federates with over 1000 other instances by this point. Would you really review ownership of each one of them?
You’re right. Reviewing ownership of all instances might be a bit unreasonable.
How about we just focus on the ones that stand out for things such as mass surveillance, conducting social experiments on their users, taking over markets, buying out competition, and influence upon genocidal political movements?
Does that seem a little more manageable?
You put it more eloquently than I could. @dan does bring up good points. We can’t monitor everything. But Meta is sort of a whale in a pond of goldfish. It stands out. And I personally don’t think should be given any benefit of the doubt based on their history.
This is satire, right?
That was my first response. I looked it up and it’s real. Unbelievable.
I’m pretty sure they just requested every single permission. There’s no good reason they need access to your Health data to make an app like this, and why the hell did Apple’s app review allow that to fly?!
They need it if they want to make more money by selling granular data of their users.
Companies like Facebook and Google don’t sell user data. This is a common misconception that people keep repeating. Logically it doesn’t make sense: The data is what makes the company valuable, so they’re not going to give that away! If they did, Facebook would just buy Google’s data (and vice versa) and neither would have a competitive advantage any more.
Instead, they let advertisers target people based on data. For example, an advertiser can specify that their ad should be visible to people aged 20-25 that like computers and live in Los Angeles. You can access Facebook and Google’s ad management products and run your own ads, and see exactly the same system and data that advertisers see.
Tomato tomato
No not really imo, because selling localised advertising instead of the data itself means the advertisers are just as chained to the big platforms as the users. That’s the whole reason these platforms stay alive, because they keep both parties ‘hostage’
In both cases, the users are being commodified. I don’t really care about what is good for the advertisers.
Pretty sure all their products do that by default. That’s their entire business model.
lol that’s classic Meta right there
Can I comment here from a different instance?
Should be able to if the different instance federates with this one
Hopefully no credible Fediverse platform actually federates with their trojan horse. If we let Zuck, or anyone like him, become a major player in the ActivityPub world, pretty soon we’re going to end up right back where we started.
Genuinely curious as I’m new to all of this, why would it matter? Isn’t that the whole point of the fediverse? If their spyware app interfacing with it is what gets the casual users into it who already have Meta’s spyware installed, you can still use the fediverse from whatever service you prefer, right?
It’s more or less the same problem as XMPP (end-to-end encrypted, federated chat protocol) had with Google Talk.
All users went to Google and then Google broke interoperability with federated servers, leaving them dead/unable to communicate with the majority of users.
Later Google killed the project as they always do. XMPP is still around, but the userbase is very small.
Here’s a post worth reading:
https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.htmlThe “fediverse” has been gaining traction recently, the fear is that Meta comes in with 1.2bn users, gets everyone on their service and the breaks federation, leaving the rest of the fediverse a drying carcass as they “move on”.
Personally, I don’t really care about the “popularity contest” - I’m not here because the community is large, I’m here because it isn’t. Signal > Noise. So I’m all for defederation.
Meta has zero trust after all they’ve done.
Here’s a pretty thorough explanation of why this Meta app is dangerous for the Fediverse.
https://fediversereport.com/meta-plans-on-joining-the-fediverse-the-responses/
I’m still trying to wrap my head around Fediverse concepts as well but the thing that stands out for me is that there is a history of private companies effectively killing open source projects.
For us, the vulnerability is ActivityPub. If Meta begins “contributing” to a foundational Fediverse technology, they have the resources to extend the protocol in a way that benefits Meta only, at a pace that only a company with the resources of Meta can.
Yep. Just like how we don’t want any particular web browser core becoming the standard core as opposed to having a common web protocols that anyone can write a browser to use. We saw what a mess people writing for only Internet Explorer became, and even Microsoft felt the pains of that when they wanted to retire Internet Explorer. The legacy of that remains to this day when coming across under or non funded web sites created through contract funding or grant funding and then not updated.
I certainly can see the same things happening long term with a large corporate entity joining the Fediverse, initially ‘contributing’ some great feature, and then in the future having a large number of instances dependent on that feature and having the tables turned by the corporate entity saying “Oh, well, we’re charging for this now.” You know… kind of like what just happened with Reddit and third part readers.
Honestly I think a lot of it is that the Fediverse (especially Mastodon) wants to remain a small community relatively isolated from regular social networks, and a very big instance would ruin that. It’s very similar to Usenet when AOL customers got access to it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September).
Some people are worried about Meta having their data, but anything you post publicly in the Fediverse is, by definition, public. A whole heap of servers have your data, and even today some of the federated servers could be operated by large companies. How would you know? My Lemmy server is federating with over a thousand others… I don’t know who runs all of those or what they’re doing with the data…
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You can’t be both a small community and replace for profit social networks. I thought the point of all this was the second one.
The point according to whom?
A few others have commented below, but from a top level perspective I’d argue that taking a relatively small platform like the fediverse and smushing it with Facebooks user base would dilute the community / environment.
If meta federates with everyone, it’ll be a huge uplift in quantity as new people start posting, but the quality I feel would be impacted.
I imagine it would be like pouring a small cup of liquid and a big container of liquid into the same bowl, one would definitely dilute the other.
No, they don’t the Fediverse as a current danger but as a future one. They see the potential in interoperability so they won’t to crush it before it crushes their walled gardens. That’s why they’re acting so open and welcoming. I think I’ve seen this film before, and I didn’t like the ending.
The TL;DR is “so it doesn’t become XMPP” - if a big player from the corporate internet world achieves significant sway over the Fediverse, that gives them a position of power to steer the platform itself, eventually letting them undermine the whole “open-source” and “decentralised” part of it entirely before taking their chunk of the federation private, effectively kneecapping the remaining communities outside the walled garden.
If you’ve ever heard “the three Es” - Embrace, Extend, Extinguish, best known from the Microsoft antitrust days - that’s what we’re worried about happening here.
The fear is that Meta is making the classic tech monopolist move: embrace, extend, extinguish.
I have no doubt their backend would eventually somehow be able to link you to other accounts and create shadow profiles of you just like they have with their other products.
