Simply put, both sides of the conflict fucking suck, which is what makes it a very difficult conflict to resolve.
I think a big part of the problem is that while Hamas are fucken evil, they were a tool used by Israel to destroy the Palestinian people. Hamas wouldn’t still exist if Israel didn’t want them to https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-security-forces-escorted-suitcases-cash-hamas-qatar-report-2023-12?r=US&IR=T
Israel has always had the goal of killing everyone in Palestine. Feed some rockets through to Hamas so they will be fired at them, send in an incredibly well funded military to level a few block (mostly with US taxpayer money), and use that military to protect the “settlers” who will just take the land.
The only change is they have expedited the process.
According to your own source, the money was intended to help Gaza civilians, it wasn’t just directly funneled to Hamas for weapons like you seem to imply. And it did buy peace for a little while until Hamas broke the peace on October 7th, again all from your own source.
What part of “Netanyahu’s […] own reported statements — was to keep Hamas strong enough to counteract the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, allowing [him/Israel] to avoid a two-state peace solution” implies wanting peace?
But Hamas isn’t the entire side, there are numerous militant groups and average Palestinians fighting against the IDF. It’s a little unfair to say “both sides suck” when one group is using whatever small arms and improvised weapons they have, suffering many thousands of civilian deaths trying to prevent the annihilation of their people, while the other side is fighting to take more territory and has the support of the entire West, with drones, airstrikes, fighter jets and the like.
Sure, the civilian deaths that started AFTER occupants of Gaza raided across the border, killed a bunch of civilians themselves, and took hostages back with them.
Shit the communists I know saw this coming a mile away and were some of the first trying to make sure people understood Hamas is a right wing theocratic movement.
Tbf, here in Germany for example there’s still a sizable communist movement calling Hamas anti-colonialist freedom fighters. Maybe most of them aren’t seeing them as communists, but they definitely see them as left-wing and deserving of left-wing support
Well “anti colonialist” and “freedom fighter” do not a communist make.
Though I can see how a connection could be made that the force fighting an apartheid settler colonial power aligns with anti apartheid anti colonial sentiment.
But critical support is kind of a nuanced thing that usually isn’t understood well or interpreted charitably. It often follows the same logic of picking the lesser of two evils as a winning electoral strategy. Which means people end up supporting objectively bad things because they see it defeating an objectively worse thing.
being anti-colonial is not the same thing as being left wing? nor is being left wing a pre-requisite of receiving left wing support.
Correct, but there is a sizeable portion of terminally online leftists who do believe that opposing all western interests, current and historic, is a necessary condition of leftist ideology. They are called campists and they are all over Lemmy.
This is also the prevailing opinion of tankies on Lemmy. I’ve seen more than a handful of people on here saying they want to “write in Hamas” for the US election.
100% of people who whine about Hamas would supported Apartheid South Africa and called Nelson Mandela and the ANC terrorist.
Its warcriminals fighting warcriminals, change my mind.
I guess it’s war criminals killing civilians, mostly.
right, not even getting to the point of fighting each other, this makes it so much worse.
Right? I learned yesterday that Israel is suffering from a lot more friendly fire incidents than is typical in urban warfare. Almost like the people they’re fighting are so poorly equipped to fight back that the main threat to Israeli soldiers is other Israeli soldiers.
Disgusting.
Yeah, all those children murdered so that their parents homes can be stolen are war criminals…
deleted by creator
Im talking about hammas and the Israeli military, who are you talking about? I dont quite get you
The only thing I can say is that both have no problem with harming combatants and civilians alike, but one side is disproportionately killing civilians with the resources at their disposal (Israel) just because they can.
I’m not convinced that Hamas wouldn’t do the same if the tables were turned, but one side needs to be better if we’re ever to see an end to this conflict.
Yeah. Hamas doesn’t have any moral high ground, but the one that needs to be restrained at this moment in time is Israel.
People are also more eager to criticise Israel because Hamas is just a terrorist organisation and they hold Israel to a higher standard.
I guess the Israeli government isn’t happy about being treated as more than a terrorist organisation?
Ehh, Hamas would have killed just as many if not far more civilians by now if Israel didn’t have such good defenses with things like the iron dome.
Hamas and the Islamic brotherhood have only fired 12,000 rockets at Israel since 10/7. I’m sure they don’t want to kill indiscriminately, just give the Israelis a fireworks show! /s
If 12,000 rockets fired means they are attacking indiscriminately, what would you say about the many more thousands of bombs that the IDF has dropped over the entire area of Gaza? Why are IDF engineers rigging residential buildings with bombs and destroying them after clearing them out? What is the purpose of their missile strikes on refugee convoys and ambulances?
I’m actually kind of skeptical of that number. Gaza isn’t big enough to drop 16,000 bombs on.
Why are IDF engineers
They want a DMZ between Gaza and Israel. (and let’s see how long before Israeli settlers move in.)
What is the purpose of their missile strikes on refugee convoys and ambulances?
Hamas wins when Israelis die. Hamas wins when Palestinians die. Ambulances and hospitals are the best places for Hamas to hide.
We should all know WHY Israel is doing what they’re doing. Hell, we know why Hamas is doing what they’re doing. That doesn’t make it right.
Gaza isn’t big enough to drop 16,000 bombs on.
what
I’m not sure you understand bombing.
I haven’t seen a number of bombs dropped by the IDF recently, but it was in the thousands last I heard probably in December. Israel also has much heavier munitions and is capable of high accuracy. Independent analysis show that by November 6th, the IDF had dropped at least 500 2,000 pound bombs, causing impact craters larger than 40 feet, in densely populated residential areas.
The heavy munitions, mostly manufactured by the US, can cause high casualty events and can have a lethal fragmentation radius – an area of exposure to injury or death around the target – of up to 365 meters (about 1,198 feet), or the equivalent of 58 soccer fields in area.
Israel dropped hundreds of 2,000-pound bombs on Gaza, analysis shows
Whether or not militants hide in hospitals or ambulances it is abhorrent to attack medical staff and is generally recognized as a war crime. There have been numerous deaths of independent observers, foreign medical staff. More UN aid workers have been killed by the IDF since October than in any other conflict in their history.
Yeah, I’m not making excuses for anyone. People just have this tendency to exaggerate towards “their” side.
Taking either side in this thing like it’s a sports team seems kind of obscene to me. We don’t need to be making things up to try to “win” an online argument.
Regardless of how much damage Israel has done, I don’t think they’ve dropped 16,000 bombs.
I mean I’d say that also counts as attacking indiscriminately. The idea behind the term “indiscriminately” means that you don’t care who is on the other side, so it can apply in both of these situations.
We can guess they would, as they are backed by iran, who has declared they want to wipe Israel off the map.
(Not Zion posting, Israel is commiting genocide, just saying Hamas is no better, just less capable)
Too many people don’t get that, I am 100% against Hamas, that might be different, if instead of a bunch of civilians, they had just taken like legitimate military people, I know everyone in Israel’s a veteran blah blah blah.
Hell, I could even have a lot more respect for them if they immediately released everyone who wasn’t an Israeli soldier.
Shit even if they just give up the fucking children.
But they didn’t do any of that and they’re complete fucking bastards and cowards.
But I can say damn hear everything the same against fucking Israel here.
They are both bad, and I don’t understand the people who are only against one or the other.
I always thought the IDF was supposed to be super skilled and tactical. I expected surgical strikes to take out terrorists and minimize civilian casualties. They had a reputation for strength.
Turns out they’re either incompetent or they’re genocidal or both. Hint: both.
Unfortunately, for those in the know, the IDF’s callous and sadistic operations in Palestine have been known for some time. They had a good PR arm making themselves out to be super careful in the occupied territories, but it was always at odds with their actions.
If their good pr looks like that, I can’t imagine the bad pr arm
Well, the good PR arm is pre-October 7, back when they were ‘just’ doming American citizens and tying Palestinian children to their vehicles as human shields. Right now I’m pretty sure their entire PR team is either on vacation celebrating that their job is over now that Israel is going mask off, or have chosen to eat a bullet over seeing their work whitewashing all these atrocities pissed away by Netanyahu.
They weren’t that great before. lol
Just needed to be good enough to convince a significant portion of the American electorate to back them to the hilt.
I don’t get too worked up by right-wing religious nuts harming other right-wing religious nuts.
Sadly, there are many innocents who are caught between the two.
Yep, thats my Main issue. Also there seems to be a group oft people that can make out the good guys in this conflict, which isnt a thing i think.
But the IDF is the most moral army in the world, they said so.
oh, okay then. if people say they are something they just are, right?
Obviously, no one is allowed to lie on the internet
yeah, its illegal
This isn’t a religious war. It’s an oppressed people fighting back against a secular political ideology that uses religion to it’s goals.
Absolutely not the whole picture. Hamas is a religious terrorist organization backed by iran.
The Palestinian people are innocent, Hamas is not.
Yeah, that’s nonsense. Not once, from any media, Western, independent, or Middle Eastern have I heard that. They are Muslim but their sole purpose is Palestinian liberation and to fight Zionism. It’s in their party charter.
That’s the old one not the one from 2017.
Lil late for that.
They showed their colors, then got a PR guy. Oops!
Lol you think I invented that? Go read the other commentor’s link, get it in their own words.
I don’t disagree with this, but Hamas was created by Israel, and now Israel is bombing all of Gaza because of Hamas. It really seems like Israel has been planning this genocide for a loooong time.
“Every society has the criminals it deserves.”
- Emma Goldman
Can’t blame anyone for retaliating against the shit conditions they’ve been put in.
This has been an incredibly slow genocide for decades
Well yes, they are well versed in history, right-wing politicians in Israel view the conflict on a biblical time scale and believe they are regaining their holy land. They are doing it as carefully and deliberately as they can, which is difficult and time consuming because they are supported by the West who mostly doesn’t want them to commit genocide. Without the support of the West, Israel would be much more likely to be defeated by the numerous enemies that surround them.
In the same vein, Israel’s right-wing regime was in no small part created by Islamist hostilities towards Israel and Jewish people from the very start
Do you mean prior to the Israeli occupation of Palestine in 1967? Because I think it’s somewhat reasonable to be hostile towards an occupational force.
Not a gotcha I’m genuinely curious at what point in history you are referring to, apologies if it sounds antagonistic.
deleted by creator
Not only an occupational force, but one extending colonial rule with arguably as bad or worse treatment of the native populace (and no, jews moving to Israel are not native to the land just because that was true a long time ago and they have a book telling them it is so).
How are you just casually missing 20 years of history before that? Not to mention the preceeding 1000 years.
So you’re saying Israel has a right to genocide Palestine because of the previous thousand years of history before 1967?
We can cherry pick timelines if we want to, but the fact is that Israel has occupied Palestine for the last 50 years. This is why Hamas exists, and this is the issue we face today.
The previous thousand years only serve as propaganda for modern Israel to be on board with the genocide.
This is just straight up islamophobic rhetoric
deleted by creator
According to the idf Israel removed themselves in 2005. But this is under heavy scrutiny from various human rights organizations.
"The United Nations, international human rights organizations and many legal scholars regard the Gaza Strip to still be under military occupation by Israel.[5] This is disputed by Israel and other legal scholars.[75] They argue that occupation requires an actual, physical presence by a military force that maintains authority.
Following the withdrawal, Israel continued to maintain direct control over Gaza’s air and maritime space, six of Gaza’s seven land crossings, maintains a no-go buffer zone within the territory, controls the Palestinian population registry, and Gaza remains dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
Wow, those leaps could set a world record. Get real. You’re cherry picking and then accusing me of cherry picking?
What leaps are you referring to?
If you knew anything about what you said, you’d be able to figure that out yourself.
That part supporters of either group fail at is that neither Hamas or the Israeli government are worthy of support or in the right. One behaves worse than the other at the moment. But there can never be peace with those two in power. It’s a really fucked situation and my heart really hurts for the people caught in the crossfire of it all.
It seems that netanyahu bolstered hamas for years for political gain, and squashing any moderate palestinian activists, teachers or politicians. Like jailing them. What happened was really predictable.
And both of them are getting what they want, to be the kings of ashes.
who thought hamas was communist?
Communist (noun)
-
Anybody who trying to make Conservatives feel remotely guilty for being totally chill with a lot of people starving, being unhoused in unsanitary conditions and being denying life saving medical care because they are poor, foreign or inconvenient.
-
Authoritarian bogeyman who will destroy civilization via terrorism
-
Not a Republican
By the Conservative rubric of identifying communists we’re pretty much all weilding a hammer and sickle.
-
Loons, mostly. There’s been a multi-talk page dispute on Wiki, for example, over internet twits removing a sourced ‘anti-communist’ descriptor from the Hamas page that had been there for a while, because they want to believe that Hamas is aligned with them so very terribly badly.
There are communist groups that work with Hamas, so that may have been removed because it doesn’t seem accurate.
How is the political stance of Hamas relevant?
It’s a terrorist group defending their country from an invasion. Even North Korea has the right to defend their land. Even if I don’t agree with the way they manage their country, it’s their country.
Their political stance is totally irrelevant to me.
For me the issue is that Hamas already lost, and Israel is violating every single human right until Palestinians are exterminated using Hamas as an excuse.
Hamas needs to stop fighting, they are a piece of shit because they aren’t giving up. Israel has always been a piece of shit. The end.
But Hamas is far from the only militant group fighting the IDF. If they stopped fighting another group would be fighting the IDF. Palestinians fighting now view it as a struggle for the survival of their people and culture. Even if there was no organize military in Palestine fighting, many average Palestinians have been struggling against Israeli forces for decades, unaligned.
I agree but they need to stop. This is not helping them at all at this point. Israel has America’s backup. If the groups that are fighting don’t stop, Israel won’t stop.
They have stopped fighting before though and Israel continued their aggression. They have had marches and protests where IDF opened fire on groups of civilians, killing dozens. Israel won’t stop until Palestine doesn’t exist, they have been vocal about this position for years. They have continued to steal land, they have funded and propped up Hamas rather than more moderate groups specifically so they can have a better excuse to continue fighting.
Do you have sources for these claims? Not doubting, I just want to read more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–2019_Gaza_border_protests
The 2018–2019 Gaza border protests, also known as the Great March of Return (Arabic: مسیرة العودة الكبرى, romanized: Masīra al-ʿawda al-kubrā), were a series of demonstrations held each Friday in the Gaza Strip near the Gaza-Israel border from 30 March 2018 until 27 December 2019,[13][14][15] in which Israeli forces killed a total of 223 Palestinians.[4][13] The demonstrators demanded that the Palestinian refugees must be allowed to return to lands they were displaced from in what is now Israel.
223 killed, included 46 children, and over 9000 injured
Times of Israel: For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces
Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
It’s relevant because it’s the truth.
I don’t know what to do with this information
Everyone who fights against the genocidal state of Israel is by definition a freedom fighter.
The brain rot here is something else.
Ever heard of the enemy of my enemy being my friend? You may disagree but it’s a valid position to take.
The US took that position, and we got the Taliban. Yay!
People don’t like being invaded and join whoever promises to fight the invaders. That’s enemy of my enemy from their perspective.
“We regret the deaths and injuries to civilians arising from armed actions. We apologize to the next-of-kin for the suffering and hurt,” said a statement from the ANC to South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission, set up to investigate apartheid-era abuses and promote reconciliation among South Africans of all races.
The ANC repeated its position that the armed struggle against the country’s white-ruled government, which began in 1960, was a just war and that civilians had not been deliberately targeted.
The ANC repeated its position that the armed struggle against the country’s white-ruled government, which began in 1960, was a just war and that civilians had not been deliberately targeted.
Which makes a stark difference between the ANC (or rather, the ANC’s policies) and Hamas.
Exactly the same thing you mean.
If I cite any of the many, many times in which Hamas has unambiguously and deliberately targeted civilians with planned attacks, will you concede, or will you just make excuses for the slaughter of civilians?
The ANC had a FAR worse civilian casualty rate than Hamas. The Hamas civilian casualty rate is 66% even including IDF friendly fire on civilians.
If you find a planned attack on civilians from October 7 do link it. I’m curious to see it and will watch it.
If you find a planned attack on civilians from October 7 do link it. I’m curious to see it and will watch it.
I was actually intending on doing any of the many, many pre-October 7th attacks because I’ve seen people deny proof of intentional targeting of civilians as “Israeli propaganda”.
If you read a little further in the ANC letter:
ANC says some guerrillas insufficiently trained
The ANC repeated its position that the armed struggle against the country’s white-ruled government, which began in 1960, was a just war and that civilians had not been deliberately targeted.
But the ANC statement said some of its guerrillas weren’t sufficiently trained and “were never thoroughly under the discipline of the ANC.”
I already know some Hamas members went rogue. When you work with people who’s entire families have been bombed by israel some tend to get trigger happy.
The question is whether these were planned orders from the top down or soldiers going rogue.
The question is whether these were planned orders from the top down or soldiers going rogue.
Okay, so, again, if I provide you with evidence that Hamas has committed attacks which were deliberately planned, from the top-down, to target civilians, you’ll concede the point?
Yeah and so is Israel. I don’t support either, I support Palestinians.
Very telling to (rightfully) say “both sides are bad” but not say “I support civilians on both sides”. You know you can condemn a far right regime but still show solidarity with that country’s population, right?
How many Israeli schools and hospitals are being bombed right now?
Hamas shoots hundreds of rockets at Israel every month. Suicide bombings hurt their reputation so much that they haven’t done any recently, but that doesn’t mean they won’t ignore an evacuation order and go stand on the roof of their building to get blown up for the cause.
Yeah the fact that they only said they support Palestinians was pretty obvious what they meant. This smells, to me, like racism pretending to be a fair and balanced take on the situation.
Durr criticizing Israel is antisemitic durr
I mean I said Israel, not Israelis, that was the hint.
Now that the terrorist attack is behind them, Isreali citizens arent currently being bombed the shit out of and active warzoned. Are they at risk of future terrorist attacks? Yes, but CURRENTLY its Palestinian citizens who are at a FAR higher risk
Edit: Lmao, apparently Tankies can see and reply to me even if I cant see them. I assume this is because I havent blocked them personally, but instance blocked Hexbear
Clarification to my Edit: Tankies if you are confused why Im insulting you even though you think I’m on the same side as you, Hamas can go fuck itself. Just like Isreal doesnt represent all Isreali citizens, neither does Hamas represent Palestinians. Isreal and Hamas can go fuck themselves, they are both pretty awful. I feel for Palestinians and consider them the most fucked over in this ordeal, but what Hamas did was VILE, even if what Isreal is doing in response is even more so
Oh so the thousands of rockets fired specifically at the Israeli population are perfectly fine.
They said far higher risk. Palestine doesn’t have an Iron dome. They are at a far higher risk.
It’s crazy to me that people here seem unaware that Israel didn’t just start out by building a fortified security perimeter around Gaza. It did that because of the near weekly suicide bombings. Gaza would be completely free if not for those terrorists.
Israel is definitely going overboard, but Hamas and a significant portion of Palestinians openly call for Israeli extermination. The utter refusal to engage on this topic in good faith, and the way this lack of nuance is being used to attack Joe Biden specifically is why I’m convinced much of this narrative is being pushed by right wing trolls pretending to be leftists.
Nah man, what Isreal is doing is genocide. The correct thing to do is fucking murky when both sides have engaged in barbaric bulshit for at least a generation, but Isreal has the upper hand in this power dynamic and what they are doing with it is fucking gross, same as the terrorist attack that Hamas pulled was pure evil. Neither side is clean in this conflict, but one side has significantly more power than the other. Leftists are pissed because the states is once again using its power to aid in something disgusting.
I don’t really disagree with much of what you say here, but I have seen leftists on here actually praising Hamas.
I do think the loaded language is intended to divide, and I’m quite curious to what people will say if the UN says it’s not a genocide. I genuinely don’t think Israel is trying to exterminate Palestinian Arabs. But that also doesn’t mean I’m anything close to ok with the response. The fact of the matter is that if both sides took a more secular approach to coexistence, there would be no conflict.
I guess the Tankies are technically left, but is that mostly a technicality when they simp for authoritarian regimes who have zero interest in ever allowing left leaning ideals? So yeah, theres a disgusting amount of lemmites who full on support Hamas, but I stopped considering them reasonable human beings a while ago (I’ll state here I’m using Tankie here to mean: “Communist who’s pro China/Russia” and NOT all communists). I dont really know what the response will be if the UN declares it not a genocide, some people will probably accept that and some people wont. I dont think a large chunk of people necessarily CARE what higher governmental powers declare it as though, its the fact that its functionally exterminating a significant portion of Palestinians that is upsetting to a lot of us, if its found to not TECHNICALLY be a genocide, that doesnt necessarily downplay the horror of what’s happening. Finally, and I apologize for the wall of text, I’m trying to respond to everything, I dont think religion is the sole cause of this conflict anymore, both sides have been traumatized by the generation of violence, and the hatred born from that isnt going to go away easily
that being said, anyone who’d let Trump gain power because of this is fucking DANGEROUSLY retarded.
(put this add on as a reply so that if I get the lemmy mod hammer for using the r word, the rest of my post stays up)
I agree.
Who has ever said they’re communists?
There are fringe far-left/tankies who support Hamas. They think Hamas=Palestinians. The far-left think they know enough about politics in the Israel-Palestine conflict when they have not even heard of the more moderate Palestinian Liberation Organisation who are worthy of more support for the Palestinian struggle. But instead, the far left loonies support terrorist acts by Hamas believing taking foreigners as hostages-- who mostly have no horse to bet in the fight between Palestine and Israel-- then abusing and raping them is justified and somehow think that will garner support for the struggle for freedom by Palestinians.
Stupid be stupid I guess. Though luckily, these pro-Hamas, far left nutjobs are on the fringe and minority.
John Strawman
But you see, in a dialectical analysis, far-right terrorists like Hamas serve a progressive role by not being the US, and therefore deserve critical support by leftists who are definitely not crypto-fascists. —Marxist-Leninists
I see you’ve met Lemmygrad.
Clever. Pertinent. As a “tankie,” I commend you. This is how it’s done. Take note everyone.
I don’t know why it’s so hard for certain people to understand that sometimes (actual most of the time), all sides are the bad guys.
The Nazis and the Allies. Both the bad guys. Stupid Allies bombing Dresden.
‘Sometimes’ and even ‘most of the time’ isn’t ‘all the time’.
WW2 is an exceptionally rare event in which one side is so fucking awful that the support of the opposition is mandatory to not be a vile piece of shit.
Like the israelis committing genocide you mean.
No. The Israelis committing genocide is the extremely common event in which one side is awful enough that supporting them in unconscionable. It doesn’t make their equally genocide-eager but less genocide-capable foes morally necessary to support.
You are going to be in for a real surprise if you learn the things the ANC did to the Apartheid. And the Native Americans did to their colonizers when raising villages. And all these other resistance movements that we now describe as “heroic”.
October 7 sure as hell wasn’t the cleanest attack ever, but it sure was a lot less genocidal than almost every resistance group that has ever done these kinds of things.
October 7 sure as hell wasn’t the cleanest attack ever, but it sure was a lot less genocidal than almost every resistance group that has ever done these kinds of things.
Jesus fucking Christ.
These people can barely hide their own bloodlust while scolding others for daring to even suggest that there is nuance or complexity here. It’s bold even for tankie brain rot.
Yeah unlike what you seem to believe these resistances against Apartheid and Genocide werent magical fairy tales of the good guys and the bad guys.
Dresden bombing by the way. Poor Germans had to self defense against the genocidal allies according to you?
I’m still waiting on that planned attack video from Hamas that you promised.
Look up the fire bombing of Tokyo.
They are both bad, but one of them trades with the rest of the world. That’s why most governments lean towards them.
Correction. One is a democracy, so the rest of the world trades with it.
They are hardly democratic. But at least they are much better with contracts, promises and commitments.
Democracy only lives up to it’s potential when its people work for it and it seems it doesn’t happen often. Sometimes we get it right.
Maybe, there are more sides than just the people with guns and bombs.
Sounds like those people need to pick a side or risk getting gunned down or bombed.
Because some people need there to be someone they can root for, especially if the other side is aligned with other people they don’t like.
Hamas is indisputably the enemy, the issue is that the tactics Israel uses to eliminate them also cause more civilian damage than should ever be acceptable. Often they target hospitals and schools where Hamas activity isn’t even confirmed, seemingly just to cripple infrastructure and kill Palestinians.
“The enemy” of who? If a group is elevated to being an enemy due to the killing of civilians, the Israel government would easily meet that standard before Hamas.
The enemy of a fair and peaceful life for the innocent. Both Hamas and Israel have made it clear that they want conquest, not peace.
Israel is also the enemy. The enemy of our enemy should not always be our friend
It makes Palestinians leave, making it easier for them to get the land. Isreal has made no secret of wanting everything up to Jordan.
It also radicalizes them, creating the next generation of terrorists.
Exactly. They are making the same mistakes as the US in Iraq and Afghanistan. If you have 10 terrorists and you kill 5 of them, you have 30 terrorists.
Our greatest successes were when we helped put in infrastructure for the locals. In my global economics class in college, I remember that when a playground was put in a city, al-Qaeda militants were eventually seen playing on the structures. It’s a silly anecdote, but when you lift people out of desperate times, you lift them out of taking desperate measures.
Of course saying this terrorism is purely about economic hardship is only a part of the picture. There is a hatred against Jews that is widespread and isn’t going away anytime soon (especially for those countries still following the Khartoum resolution: No peace with Israel, No negotiation with Israel, No recognition of Israel), so there needs to be some hard power Israel needs to wield. Unfortunately BB has gone rogue and has decided to put all his chips on hard power and that won’t help.
Hamas is indisputably the enemy
Israel campaign of genocide and conquest
🤔
Do you need a diagram?
Yeah, they’re both irredeemable. The victims are the civilians, everyone else involved is a perpetrator.
Sometimes it’s not as simple as the good guys versus the bad guys. Just because one side is bad doesn’t mean everyone on the other side is good. There are multiple villains in this conflict and a lot of civilians suffering because of them.
It’s not ‘good guys vs bad guys’ but there is usually an aggressor and a defender in conflict. Did Palestinians, or Hamas, organize this conflict? Did they decide to unilaterally take territory and kill thousands of people on repeat over the last decades? Hamas fighters are Palestinian people, if they weren’t organized under Hamas they would be under a different banner fighting the same war.
Just because one side is bad doesn’t mean the other side is good. They can both be different flavors of bad. Just because hamas is bad doesn’t justify a genocide like Israel seems to think either.
