they could be far-right freedom fighters, history have definitely seen communist terrorists too
Far-right and “freedom fighter” are categorically opposing though. If you’re fighting to install a far-right government, you are fighting to implement authority and counteract freedom.
I don’t think fighting for freedom of your country is mutually exclusive with having far right views, also I’m not saying this about Palestinians or Hamas, but overall, the mere fact of fighting for freedom of your country isn’t even remotely related to ones political views, you can be on the whole political spectrum
But you literally aren’t fighting for the freedom of your country at that point. You’re just fighting for enslavement under different masters.
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Simply put, both sides of the conflict fucking suck, which is what makes it a very difficult conflict to resolve.
But Hamas isn’t the entire side, there are numerous militant groups and average Palestinians fighting against the IDF. It’s a little unfair to say “both sides suck” when one group is using whatever small arms and improvised weapons they have, suffering many thousands of civilian deaths trying to prevent the annihilation of their people, while the other side is fighting to take more territory and has the support of the entire West, with drones, airstrikes, fighter jets and the like.
Sure, the civilian deaths that started AFTER occupants of Gaza raided across the border, killed a bunch of civilians themselves, and took hostages back with them.
I think a big part of the problem is that while Hamas are fucken evil, they were a tool used by Israel to destroy the Palestinian people. Hamas wouldn’t still exist if Israel didn’t want them to https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-security-forces-escorted-suitcases-cash-hamas-qatar-report-2023-12?r=US&IR=T
Israel has always had the goal of killing everyone in Palestine. Feed some rockets through to Hamas so they will be fired at them, send in an incredibly well funded military to level a few block (mostly with US taxpayer money), and use that military to protect the “settlers” who will just take the land.
The only change is they have expedited the process.
According to your own source, the money was intended to help Gaza civilians, it wasn’t just directly funneled to Hamas for weapons like you seem to imply. And it did buy peace for a little while until Hamas broke the peace on October 7th, again all from your own source.
What part of “Netanyahu’s […] own reported statements — was to keep Hamas strong enough to counteract the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, allowing [him/Israel] to avoid a two-state peace solution” implies wanting peace?
who thought hamas was communist?
Loons, mostly. There’s been a multi-talk page dispute on Wiki, for example, over internet twits removing a sourced ‘anti-communist’ descriptor from the Hamas page that had been there for a while, because they want to believe that Hamas is aligned with them so very terribly badly.
There are communist groups that work with Hamas, so that may have been removed because it doesn’t seem accurate.
How is the political stance of Hamas relevant?
It’s a terrorist group defending their country from an invasion. Even North Korea has the right to defend their land. Even if I don’t agree with the way they manage their country, it’s their country.
Their political stance is totally irrelevant to me.
For me the issue is that Hamas already lost, and Israel is violating every single human right until Palestinians are exterminated using Hamas as an excuse.
Hamas needs to stop fighting, they are a piece of shit because they aren’t giving up. Israel has always been a piece of shit. The end.
But Hamas is far from the only militant group fighting the IDF. If they stopped fighting another group would be fighting the IDF. Palestinians fighting now view it as a struggle for the survival of their people and culture. Even if there was no organize military in Palestine fighting, many average Palestinians have been struggling against Israeli forces for decades, unaligned.
I agree but they need to stop. This is not helping them at all at this point. Israel has America’s backup. If the groups that are fighting don’t stop, Israel won’t stop.
They have stopped fighting before though and Israel continued their aggression. They have had marches and protests where IDF opened fire on groups of civilians, killing dozens. Israel won’t stop until Palestine doesn’t exist, they have been vocal about this position for years. They have continued to steal land, they have funded and propped up Hamas rather than more moderate groups specifically so they can have a better excuse to continue fighting.
Do you have sources for these claims? Not doubting, I just want to read more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–2019_Gaza_border_protests
The 2018–2019 Gaza border protests, also known as the Great March of Return (Arabic: مسیرة العودة الكبرى, romanized: Masīra al-ʿawda al-kubrā), were a series of demonstrations held each Friday in the Gaza Strip near the Gaza-Israel border from 30 March 2018 until 27 December 2019,[13][14][15] in which Israeli forces killed a total of 223 Palestinians.[4][13] The demonstrators demanded that the Palestinian refugees must be allowed to return to lands they were displaced from in what is now Israel.
223 killed, included 46 children, and over 9000 injured
Times of Israel: For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces
Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
It’s relevant because it’s the truth.
Communist (noun)
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Anybody who trying to make Conservatives feel remotely guilty for being totally chill with a lot of people starving, being unhoused in unsanitary conditions and being denying life saving medical care because they are poor, foreign or inconvenient.
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Authoritarian bogeyman who will destroy civilization via terrorism
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Not a Republican
By the Conservative rubric of identifying communists we’re pretty much all weilding a hammer and sickle.
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Everyone who fights against the genocidal state of Israel is by definition a freedom fighter.
The brain rot here is something else.
Ever heard of the enemy of my enemy being my friend? You may disagree but it’s a valid position to take.
The US took that position, and we got the Taliban. Yay!
People don’t like being invaded and join whoever promises to fight the invaders. That’s enemy of my enemy from their perspective.
Daily reminder that the word terrorism was only coined to prevent the obvious escalation when non violent protests are either ignored or put down violently.
When you’ve tried peaceful protest and nothing changes you only have one option left.
Meanwhile the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine just exists.
The PFLP has generally taken a hard-line on Palestinian national aspirations, opposing the more moderate stance of Fatah. It does not recognize Israel, and promotes a one-state solution to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, in a “democratic Palestine”, where “Arabs and Jews would live without discrimination”. The military wing of the PFLP is called the Abu Ali Mustapha Brigades.
Note: This is sure as shit not meant to downplay or deny Israel’s ongoing genocide. Only to point out the absurdity of some online leftists in simping for Hamas and expressing disbelief that far-right theocrats with a history of committing terrible crimes would commit terrible crimes.
Hey @Satelllliiiiiiiteeee what part of this do you disagree with?
What is this type of comment? I see kbin folks do it often
We can see downvotes so I tagged them to see why.
Great part of kbin is up and downvotes are public
That’s weird. Let’s test!
Callout, I guess? I generally don’t bother unless someone reduces a number of things in a row for no discernible reason, in which case I usually ask why in private messages. Sometimes it’s something like “Your links aren’t working”, and other times it’s “I think you’re an attention whore and need to be taken down before you infect the Fediverse”.
Uh…forget to switch accounts?
Switch accounts?
Yeah maybe but Netanyahu put Hamas in power, against recommendations, and blatantly obvious issues. It had to be purposeful so he had a target that “deserved” to be bombed, so the campaign for the last 70 years could speed up.
For those doubting this, IDF leadership have admitted to this, and Arafat confirmed it.
Its warcriminals fighting warcriminals, change my mind.
The only thing I can say is that both have no problem with harming combatants and civilians alike, but one side is disproportionately killing civilians with the resources at their disposal (Israel) just because they can.
I’m not convinced that Hamas wouldn’t do the same if the tables were turned, but one side needs to be better if we’re ever to see an end to this conflict.
We can guess they would, as they are backed by iran, who has declared they want to wipe Israel off the map.
(Not Zion posting, Israel is commiting genocide, just saying Hamas is no better, just less capable)
Too many people don’t get that, I am 100% against Hamas, that might be different, if instead of a bunch of civilians, they had just taken like legitimate military people, I know everyone in Israel’s a veteran blah blah blah.
Hell, I could even have a lot more respect for them if they immediately released everyone who wasn’t an Israeli soldier.
Shit even if they just give up the fucking children.
But they didn’t do any of that and they’re complete fucking bastards and cowards.
But I can say damn hear everything the same against fucking Israel here.
They are both bad, and I don’t understand the people who are only against one or the other.
Ehh, Hamas would have killed just as many if not far more civilians by now if Israel didn’t have such good defenses with things like the iron dome.
Hamas and the Islamic brotherhood have only fired 12,000 rockets at Israel since 10/7. I’m sure they don’t want to kill indiscriminately, just give the Israelis a fireworks show! /s
If 12,000 rockets fired means they are attacking indiscriminately, what would you say about the many more thousands of bombs that the IDF has dropped over the entire area of Gaza? Why are IDF engineers rigging residential buildings with bombs and destroying them after clearing them out? What is the purpose of their missile strikes on refugee convoys and ambulances?
I mean I’d say that also counts as attacking indiscriminately. The idea behind the term “indiscriminately” means that you don’t care who is on the other side, so it can apply in both of these situations.
I’m actually kind of skeptical of that number. Gaza isn’t big enough to drop 16,000 bombs on.
Why are IDF engineers
They want a DMZ between Gaza and Israel. (and let’s see how long before Israeli settlers move in.)
What is the purpose of their missile strikes on refugee convoys and ambulances?
Hamas wins when Israelis die. Hamas wins when Palestinians die. Ambulances and hospitals are the best places for Hamas to hide.
We should all know WHY Israel is doing what they’re doing. Hell, we know why Hamas is doing what they’re doing. That doesn’t make it right.
I haven’t seen a number of bombs dropped by the IDF recently, but it was in the thousands last I heard probably in December. Israel also has much heavier munitions and is capable of high accuracy. Independent analysis show that by November 6th, the IDF had dropped at least 500 2,000 pound bombs, causing impact craters larger than 40 feet, in densely populated residential areas.
The heavy munitions, mostly manufactured by the US, can cause high casualty events and can have a lethal fragmentation radius – an area of exposure to injury or death around the target – of up to 365 meters (about 1,198 feet), or the equivalent of 58 soccer fields in area.
Israel dropped hundreds of 2,000-pound bombs on Gaza, analysis shows
Whether or not militants hide in hospitals or ambulances it is abhorrent to attack medical staff and is generally recognized as a war crime. There have been numerous deaths of independent observers, foreign medical staff. More UN aid workers have been killed by the IDF since October than in any other conflict in their history.
Yeah, I’m not making excuses for anyone. People just have this tendency to exaggerate towards “their” side.
Taking either side in this thing like it’s a sports team seems kind of obscene to me. We don’t need to be making things up to try to “win” an online argument.
Regardless of how much damage Israel has done, I don’t think they’ve dropped 16,000 bombs.
Gaza isn’t big enough to drop 16,000 bombs on.
what
I’m not sure you understand bombing.
Yeah. Hamas doesn’t have any moral high ground, but the one that needs to be restrained at this moment in time is Israel.
People are also more eager to criticise Israel because Hamas is just a terrorist organisation and they hold Israel to a higher standard.
I guess the Israeli government isn’t happy about being treated as more than a terrorist organisation?
I always thought the IDF was supposed to be super skilled and tactical. I expected surgical strikes to take out terrorists and minimize civilian casualties. They had a reputation for strength.
Turns out they’re either incompetent or they’re genocidal or both. Hint: both.
Unfortunately, for those in the know, the IDF’s callous and sadistic operations in Palestine have been known for some time. They had a good PR arm making themselves out to be super careful in the occupied territories, but it was always at odds with their actions.
If their good pr looks like that, I can’t imagine the bad pr arm
Well, the good PR arm is pre-October 7, back when they were ‘just’ doming American citizens and tying Palestinian children to their vehicles as human shields. Right now I’m pretty sure their entire PR team is either on vacation celebrating that their job is over now that Israel is going mask off, or have chosen to eat a bullet over seeing their work whitewashing all these atrocities pissed away by Netanyahu.
They weren’t that great before. lol
Just needed to be good enough to convince a significant portion of the American electorate to back them to the hilt.
I guess it’s war criminals killing civilians, mostly.
right, not even getting to the point of fighting each other, this makes it so much worse.
Right? I learned yesterday that Israel is suffering from a lot more friendly fire incidents than is typical in urban warfare. Almost like the people they’re fighting are so poorly equipped to fight back that the main threat to Israeli soldiers is other Israeli soldiers.
Disgusting.
Yeah, all those children murdered so that their parents homes can be stolen are war criminals…
Im talking about hammas and the Israeli military, who are you talking about? I dont quite get you
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I don’t get too worked up by right-wing religious nuts harming other right-wing religious nuts.
Sadly, there are many innocents who are caught between the two.
Yep, thats my Main issue. Also there seems to be a group oft people that can make out the good guys in this conflict, which isnt a thing i think.
But the IDF is the most moral army in the world, they said so.
oh, okay then. if people say they are something they just are, right?
Obviously, no one is allowed to lie on the internet
yeah, its illegal
This isn’t a religious war. It’s an oppressed people fighting back against a secular political ideology that uses religion to it’s goals.
Absolutely not the whole picture. Hamas is a religious terrorist organization backed by iran.
The Palestinian people are innocent, Hamas is not.
Yeah, that’s nonsense. Not once, from any media, Western, independent, or Middle Eastern have I heard that. They are Muslim but their sole purpose is Palestinian liberation and to fight Zionism. It’s in their party charter.
That’s the old one not the one from 2017.
Lil late for that.
They showed their colors, then got a PR guy. Oops!
Lol you think I invented that? Go read the other commentor’s link, get it in their own words.
The PPP are the Communist freedom fighters and Israel has funded Hamas for years to stop the PPP from coming into power. It’s easier to fight radical fundamentalists than it is to fight socialists.
It’s easier to fight radical fundamentalists than it is to fight socialists.
Excuse me, what?
In 1982, a prominent Israeli strategic analyst, Avner Yaniv, coined the term “Palestinian peace offensive” to describe the risk that Palestinians would become too moderate politically and Israel would be forced to make concessions.
He urged using the “fiercest military pressures” against the PLO in Lebanon to undermine Palestinian moderates and make the PLO more hardline in order “to halt its rise to political respectability”.
https://www.newarab.com/analysis/why-israel-has-strategic-interest-escalating-violence
Radical fundamentalists, I believe they’re saying, make more palatable enemies. Same essential reason why Hamas was funded by Israel to split Palestinian support from Fatah - Fatah, as a secular and nominally leftist organization drew some international sympathy - Hamas, much less.
The other side of the coin is that Hamas was able to rise in the first place because Fatah had become incredibly corrupt and inept.
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You can get martyrs and madmen from all sides, religious fundamentalists or not.
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I think you’d be surprised by a deep dive through history. Plenty of secularists have been willing and even eager to trade their lives for justice.
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Bingo. Thanks for clearing that up.
Because fighting fundamentalists gives you more international sympathy and support.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
It was also to prevent there being a unified Palestinian government by driving a wedge between the west bank and Gaza.
100% of people who whine about Hamas would supported Apartheid South Africa and called Nelson Mandela and the ANC terrorist.
I don’t know what to do with this information
The only people on Hamas’ side are Netanyahu, the former Muslim Brotherhood, and Iran who all worked hard to keep Hamas well funded and in a position of authority. The important thing is to side with Palestine, not with Hamas.
And some online loons, but yes.
Nah I’m fine with backing Hamas in this case, it doesn’t mean I’m home with entering they’ve done or do but I can say that for literally every country including my own.
I don’t think there is any world or any set of circumstances that would have me backing terrorists, but you do you I guess.
The ANC? Partisans during WW2? The Warsaw ghetto uprising? The American founding fathers? John Brown?
People like you who unquestioningly side with oppressors are worse than any terrorist.
When did I say anything positive about the Israeli government?
You are just looking to fight on the internet aren’t you?
“When did I say anything positive about the apartheid government? All I said was that Mandela and the ANC are evil terrorists who should be condemned!”
Pretty sure he was referring to Hamas.
You get that Israel was created by terrorists correct? It’s like a very perfect pot kettle situation.
Sure it is.
It is though. They’re both terrorist states that opportunistically attack each other but one thing is factually different Israel has killed more civilians even before the festival attack and subsequent “self defense” ethnic cleansing.
Funny how you immediately assumed I approve of the actions of the Israeli government. Even more funny: given the choice between which baby killers to back you pick a side. I’m against killing babies.
That part supporters of either group fail at is that neither Hamas or the Israeli government are worthy of support or in the right. One behaves worse than the other at the moment. But there can never be peace with those two in power. It’s a really fucked situation and my heart really hurts for the people caught in the crossfire of it all.
It seems that netanyahu bolstered hamas for years for political gain, and squashing any moderate palestinian activists, teachers or politicians. Like jailing them. What happened was really predictable.
And both of them are getting what they want, to be the kings of ashes.
It’s incredible that this meme has a reason to exist, that there truly are people who refuse to accept the obvious, that Hamas is an extreme radical organization that feeds on hatred and is more than willing to use and abuse their own population as cannon fodder, for martyrdom-propaganda purposes.
Yep, and that the existence of Hamas doesn’t give Israel the right to Genocide anyone. It seems really simple on the surface, but fucking Christ do humans love their team sports analogs.
“If you don’t full-throated support Israel, you’re antisemitic and must love Hamas”
I actually hate both, because both are doing extreme harm, but Israel is on a different level and actively supports Hamas because they’re useful opposition. Hamas is a symptom of the oppression that Israel has instituted.
I hate that it’s even necessary to make a personal qualification on the good-ness/bad-ness of either group.
I shouldn’t have to say “I hate both”, I would like to simply observe - “The current conflict is - in part - a result of decades of systemic oppression and disenfranchisement on the basis of religious nationalism” - without someone jumping down my throat to accuse me of antisemitism or of supporting a terrorist group.
Yep, but the team sports! You gotta make it clear you’re not rooting for anyone, you just want people to stop dying. But that means you have to condemn, cause if you don’t, the team sports people think you’re talking bad about them (and that doesn’t cause any alarms in their heads to go off, cause “they made me feel bad” instead of “maybe this shouldn’t be a team thing”)
But yeah, that’s a part of being human, as frustrating as that is. Our brains want to make “us and them” cause that’s a remnant of how we survived. We don’t need it any more, but that doesn’t change that that’s in our programming.
For me is totaly credible, reality has a lot of nuances and it is complex to understand. If ppl still votes for trumps, bolsonaros and le pens how would you find incredible they can’t understand shit about one of the most complex conflics of the last century?
People tend to assign a good side and a bad side to conflicts. Because the IDF is essentially committing genocide to attack Hamas, people who don’t know much about Hamas are labeling Hamas the good side.
In reality Hamas and the IDF are both pretty monstrous and civilians are suffering as a result of both their actions, but since “Palestinian civilian” isn’t a fun team name they get lumped in with Hamas by ignorant people -_-
They aren’t “committing genocide to attack Hamas”, they have propped up Hamas for years specifically so they can bomb average people more and enact genocidal policies, in their ultimate goal of the destruction of Palestine. Right-wing Israeli politicians have been pretty clear about that for decades. Hamas isn’t alone on their side, and Israel isn’t targeting them specifically, they are just the largest of several militant groups fighting against Israel.
