I had to walk out of the library the other day. I was wearing noise canceling headphones and listening to music at a normal volume and yet a mom with three kids drove me out due to the fact they were running around and yelling like it was their house.
I travel and this is the new normal at libraries throughout the U.S. Many libraries now have an open area children’s section where the kids can play on the floor and be as loud as they want.
I do use study rooms at the library but not all libraries have them and a closed glass door does not block all the noise from a screaming baby/toddler.
Libraries are a shared space and in the past used to be quiet. Now in the effort to be inclusive to everyone they don’t enforce any noise rules because they want those moms and their screaming kids to come visit the library.
And of course, you cannot complain to anyone about this because if you do so you are a Karen and no one will care and then they’ll tell you “if you don’t like it you can leave” This is society now…everyone does what they want with no regard for others.
My library put a toddler play area next to the non fiction section. They make no attempt to stop any noise. The study areas have noisy teenagers and people watching videos with the sound on. Noone seems to care.
Libraries are not at all the quiet places I grew up with and I guess people like me just have to accept that we are not welcome. I resent it but it seems parents can no longer be expected to teach their children to be quiet and respect others using a space.
I’m not discounting your experience and I haven’t been in a public library more than a couple of times in maybe the last 35 years, but they were some of my favorite places growing up and I still help out by donating to them and such.
All of the ones I’ve been in have had the children’s section physically separated from the adult section by something like the lobby containing the librarian’s desk. Call it about 30-40 feet of space. Furthermore, the kid’s section wasn’t an “anything goes” kind of area - it was treated as an opportunity for kids to learn proper library behavior. The section had its own librarian who wouldn’t not hesitate to shush noisy kids.
So, while I don’t think yours is an unpopular opinion, I am hoping the experience is less common than you’ve seen.
Also, university libraries are often open to anyone (although you won’t be able to borrow books), so that might be an alternate option. They might not have public WiFi though.
Agreed, and it matches my experience. I go to libraries pretty frequently and there’s always a children’s section, and the non-children areas get little to no noise from children.
The public libraries where I live are exactly as you described. I’ve never heard the kids from the adult section.
Where I live the kids section is on a separate floor altogether. Not sure about this trend OP is describing, I don’t travel around visiting libraries though.
Most libraries I’ve been to, the children’s section is on its own floor
Kids can learn to be quiet. Maybe libraries don’t need whisper voices anymore, but inside voices for sure. Teaching kids (and adults it seems) to respect a public space and the people who are using it is not kid hostile. Sharing a space means all sides have to compromise and get along.
I am a parent of a 6 year old and I would be absolutely mortified if he acted like that in the library. I am sorry on behalf of all of us parents that actually try.
Libraries should be quiet but I strongly disagree that they shouldn’t cater for kids, libraries are great for kids I take my toddler to our library fairly often and she’s learn to love books because of it.
The situation is just a shitty parent not an issue with libraries catering for kids.
Libraries are third spaces. They’re one of the last third spaces left. I fully agree that they should be quiet spaces for learning. But to accomplish that, we need to create more third spaces for other purposes.
This is society now…everyone does what they want with no regard for others.
When the universe does not align with your expectations, which is wrong? the universe or your expectations? You made the mistake of assuming the library was a quiet place. That’s wrong. Fix yourself. But if you want the library to be of quiet place, like I do, help to fix society so it can be.
There should be areas setup for kids or certain timeslots where it’s encouraged. But it’s also a case of parenting, when I was little I was made very aware how I need to be quiet when I was taken in there. You have to teach your kids respect.
Listen… Libraries are dying. I have a library of Alexandria in my pocket. Nobody needs to go to them anymore. In order to justify their continued existence they have to find a new product market fit. They have to cater to people who would use them. Those people happen to be stay at home soccer moms and their kids.
So you have to suffer. I like my libraries quiet as well, but I understand what they’re doing. And honestly, I don’t want all the places people can still go for free to be kid hostile. I’m kind of OK with it all in all, as opposed to them shutting down.
they were running around and yelling like it was their house.
They all would get asked to leave, immediately, if they did that in my country. I mean, everybody learns at child age that you behave quietly in a library. So this scene simply would not happen in the first place.
we have the world’s quietest libraries… thanks to jail
Hmm I’ve been in some very small libraries where this would be an issue, but most of the ones I’ve been in have the kids section on a separate floor and the kids head straight there. Perhaps what we really need is more funding for libraries so that more can do this.
Bad parents are a thing. Children screaming loudly in an indoor environment should be corrected.
I don’t think your opinion is unpopular. There are lots of people who will agree with you that libraries should be absolutely silent.
But I don’t agree. There should be space for kids to learn to love books. They might noiser that you would like, but kids who love books are a benefit to our world.
Libraries are a community meeting place, one of the last good third spaces left. If you want perfect silence go home.
Libraries are not your unpaid office space.
I agree that there should be space for kids to learn to love books, but I don’t think OP is at all unreasonable for wanting there to be a part of the library that’s quiet.
Libraries are not your unpaid office space.
I agree, they are a space OP pays for. They aren’t an office space, but they ought to be kept suitable for tasks like reading, research, note taking, poetry writing, and math homework.
Aren’t libraries mostly funded by local taxes? Since OP is traveling around the country, they’re probably not paying for the local library. Or at least a much smaller portion than the local kids’ parents.
It’s unfortunate if a library cannot provide both a space for children and a quiet area for adults, but if they have to choose they should prioritize the local community’s needs over the out-of-towner’s.
Edit: Anyone care to elaborate on the downvotes?
Granted I missed the part about OP traveling all over the country. But don’t you think local community members also value quiet?
It’s not true that libraries can’t provide both, most can and do. Some can’t, but that’s a design flaw that’s reasonable to complain about.
I’m sure the local community does value quiet. But unfortunately we don’t have any feedback from the local community. We only have OP’s points of view. So I’m left to wonder whether this family was actually being disruptive by the local community’s standards or if OP is blowing this out of proportion. If it’s the former, then OP could have done everyone in that library a favor by politely bringing it up with the library staff instead of just complaining about it online. If instead the problem is that OP has different standards than the community does, then that’s just too bad for OP because they’re not the one actually paying for the library.
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At the end of the day, there will always be stupid people who make bad decisions. This comes down on the theaters to either enforce a “no babies” policy, or have one of those little sound proofed side rooms like churches.
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Yeah, I had to pay to go to the movie theatre. The library is free.
I mean, don’t expect a library to cater to your demographic if you arent there, being the regular customer/ patron.
A mom and 3-12 yo? That sounds like a great demographic for a library to cater to. And its a way to get their kid to engage with educational material in a fun way? And its free? Bro.
I think if you want libraries to cater to your demographic of use, you need to become the most common demographic.
Are you saying i need to become a mom so i can use the library?
I mean, I’m not gonna kink shame anyone if that’s your thing…
I’m just saying that library’s are going to (and should) cater and adjust their offerings based on who uses them.
Well they redid the library to cater to children and I stopped going. Success?
Well they redid the library to cater to children and I stopped going. Success?
Maybe you should have gone more often? Or maybe the feedbacks aren’t in place to make that circuit.
But why won’t anyone think about me?!
As a mom with a toddler, I love my local library. We go for toddler story hour or just to explore new books. He’s a voracious reader and has lost his patience with the books we have at home so having a huge range of children’s books to pick from has been great for “dialing in” to what his reading level is at week after week. It’s been a wonderful resource and the librarians know him by name and I’ve been able to meet and network with local moms.
Toddler story hour does have chatter and activities and songs and general noise but I personally have never seen a kid running around wild like you described. Not to say I don’t believe it’s ever happened, but that this supposed pandemic of ill behavior and dreadful permissiveness that is painted in your post and the comments sure has a “get off my lawn” perennial quality to it. I acknowledge my obligation to teach my (and when appropriate, others’) kids how to behave in a public indoor place, but there always have been and always will be bad parents.
From my experience, libraries are becoming a secular community place. Ours has a crafting club, lego group, gardening group, and runs D&D games as well as the kid activities. The children’s area is separate but it’s not a huge building. The way I see it, you could be just as mad at a D&D group getting excited by a game or a bunch of Lego spilling on the floor, because you’re sharing the space with others. Regardless of a library’s stereotypical sound profile of hushed silence, it’s still a public space and people will be making noises in it. A one time occurrence of kids being noisy is annoying, but so are coughs and sneezes and loud typing and books thumping and other people in general.
A one time occurrence of kids being noisy is annoying, but so are coughs and sneezes and loud typing and books thumping and other people in general.
If you think kids running around screaming, and people sneezing and “thumping books” are anywhere near comparable, you urgently need to book an appointment with an audiologist to make sure your hearing damage isn’t permanent.
Or, it could be simple Stockholm syndrome. You’ve become so accustomed to the constant assault that you’ve forgotten how unbearably disruptive kids can be.
I’d support tax funding for library outlets in playgrounds where the little shriek machines can scream to their heart’s content. Libraries should be places where people can read without undo disruption.
These hypothetical screaming wild children running rampant through the halls of America’s libraries are apparently sparing the libraries I attend, because as I said, I’ve never seen children acting out like that and I attend literal toddler events, with an actual toddler regularly. Note that they didn’t say “screaming shouldn’t be allowed in libraries”, they said toddlers. If OP can’t handle the sounds of toddlers at the library (which, again, I witness regularly) playing with wooden toys, doing puzzles, making crafts, having books read to them, then OP should find somewhere more private and not be mad at the public for using a public space.
It sounds like, rather the eras old horrible pandemic of the ever worsening “youth”, OP had a bad experience one day with some unusually poorly behaved kids and rather than say something to the parent, or the librarian, or hell even the kids, they decided to play out a hypothetical worst-case-scenario in their mind and then use it as an excuse for inaction. Then they came here to rant impotently and make it sound like some wide-spread problem it isn’t. And I just don’t think that’s a good enough reason to try to make me feel unwelcome.
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OP provided one example, and then used it as a sweeping generalization that directly conflicts with my lived experiences. Do I just attend uniquely peaceful libraries with uniquely well behaved toddlers? Maybe I’m living in a haven of quietude and utopian standards of parenting and never knew. Have you gone to any public libraries lately and experienced what OP describes? It should be easy to if it’s an epidemic worthy of telling me and my son we don’t belong there.
Of course I agree that we should all be considerate of each other and respect others’ rights to enjoy public spaces as they’re intended, but that’s not the title of the post, is it?
I am absolutely fine with a “toddler reading hour”. But I agree with OP that a library should take reasonable steps to allow to function for everyone. Even when this impedes some peoples’ desire to be loud.
If a library allows or even supports as loud activity, it should provide an adequate space for these, and adequate here would mean that these activities should happen in their own space and acoustically seperated from the rest.
If there is not enough space, those groups would have to share, yes. But a toddler reading group in the morning, some school children activities in the afternoon, and a D&D session in the evening should be able to get along.
And whoever uses the library PCs with loudspeakers instead of headphones should be kicked out immediately. Why on earth does that PC even have speakers in the first place?
If OP made a post that said “people in public places should be respectful of others” or “libraries aren’t a place for screaming” that would hardly be an unpopular opinion. So if you’re fine with toddler reading hour and the concept of young kids being welcome in libraries, then you and I are in agreement.
OP explicitly said moms and young kids shouldn’t feel like they have a place in the library, on the basis of a bad experience, which I don’t agree with (but is at least appropriate for the sub).
I read his post as primarily aimed against mothers who don’t care about what their children are doing, even if those children pose a problem for other people. And while I think it would be good just to talk to those mothers and tell them that they should take better care and teach their children the necessary respect for people and places like libraries, I can understand that he does not. Some mothers, especially those who don’t care and therefor create exactly those problems, can be annoyingly aggressive. I’ve met this kind, I had to tell such a person to leave the premises (not a library, but that does not matter) for being unwilling to reign in her kids. I had to call security, but after attacking me, she left before security arrived.
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I’M a parent, and I would find it very inconsiderate of that mum. Babies and toddlers are one thing, but kids do need to learn to be considerate of others
You’re one of those parents, eh?
The enshittification of Meat Space…
There’s a few things here to unpack. Libraries have to evolve. And clearly, those doing the evolving have a goal of getting more kids in, which is laudable. Kids don’t just need to read, but need to love reading. However, that also doesn’t mean they should be allowed to just act wild. I would suggest you talk to the librarian about this if you haven’t already. Maybe they can move to a set of published “kids”hours and quiet (or near quiet) time otherwise.
Chances are, with childcare costs being what they are, these parents may have nowhere else to go with their kids. Again, have you talked with them about maybe keeping a closer eye on their kids and (very politely) suggesting they maybe need to go to the local playground or open space if their kids want to be rowdy?
And finally, have you considered that you yourself could be the problem? Yes, libraries have historically been quiet, study spaces, but things do change, especially as you are travelling. Yes, you want a quiet place to work, but that doesn’t entitle you to one unless you are paying for it.
You seem to putting yourself into a victim-mindset where it’s somebody else’s fault, and why oh why doesn’t somebody else fix it for me? I apologize if this is labelling you, and I do acknowledge that I have an incomplete set of information. So, while I agree with you in principle that people are getting selfish, this problem remains one of social contracts, and these only get resolved when people talk about them openly and without prejudice…
In short, you’re not a Karen for asking other people to be reasonable, as long as you do it from a position of empathy and understanding. And if you don’t get that back, you have to keep trying… You cannot change the world, but the world can change you if you let it
Yes, you want a quiet place to work, but that doesn’t entitle you to one unless you are paying for it.
I am paying for it. We are all paying for it. I also pay for public pools where I think my dogs would love to swim in the summer, but that doesn’t entitle me to disrupt others just because I love my dogs.
This literally means that everyone has an equal right to use it… And you’ve paid for an agency to policy it.
In pools, this means the agency can create a rule for “no dogs”. In this case, the library does not either set or enforce a rule that says kids need to be quiet.
FWIW, I completely agree with your point as you’ve explained it. I also know that complaining to complete strangers won’t change anything. Unless there’s a few librarians on here, in which case, Librarians: WTF?
I sure wish we had a public dog pool here.
Yes, you want a quiet place to work, but that doesn’t entitle you to one unless you are paying for it.
Mental rest is a first need for any human being, at the same degree that is being fed. If you don’t agree, that’s only because you haven’t been pushed hard enough into your limits. We live in a world where people are growing increasingly individualistic, entitled to the point of “my freedoms end where I say they end, regardless of your needs”, and capable of provoking more and more noise through phones, speakers and fireworks, while roads are filled with more and bigger cars. So you can be certain that I’m going to be in radical support of anyone who says they need less noise, whether it is because they need to sleep, work or just chill.
I couldn’t agree more. The world needs to be more quiet, with people actually learning to think about the needs of others.
For example, it pisses me off no end when some asshole in the park is riding around blaring music out of a backpack speaker. Or that their dogs shit on public grassland. I’ve even walked up to people and asked them to please stop it. Surprisingly, one or two have but most just insult me, and there’s little I can do but walk away.
To a degree, they have a point, as do the noisy people in the library. Unless there is a rule that specifically prohibits it, all we have are the social norms we need to live by. If the majority want such places noisy, we’ll have to find new spaces. That’s what society means.
To be very clear, this does suck but you won’t change these people by complaining, only by building empathy and that is very hard to do when nobody cares about society any more.
The real unpopular opinion is always in the comments.
Great work.
Oh my god you (or the fictional parent we’re talking about) is literally being the karen.
They are disobeying the rules (not keeping quiet), they are acting entitled (by acting like the rules don’t apply to them), and they are now offended when called out for not following the rules (primo Karen behavior).
They also are taking their problems (loud noisy kids) and pushing it onto everyone else. (More entitlement. Sure my kids are loud, but they deserve to be loud more than you deserve a quiet space. My personal freedoms are more important than yours).
You claim that OP didn’t show empathy when I don’t see that they went and demanded they leave or anything, to me they showed restraint. (And don’t even begin to start the debate about them going and talking to a parent about that. We both know there is a zero percent chance that they wouldn’t immediately become the target or a barrage of hate and screams for asking them to please be quiet. I worked retail. I know how parents react). You however have shown zero empathy to their situation, their need to focus and study, instead only seeing your point of view. You claim social contract while ignoring that the parents broke the social contract or being quiet.
You’re entire point reads as “the parents wants and freedoms are more important than this person’s wants and freedom”. That’s the funny thing about freedom, none of us really get true freedom, because true freedom means other people have to lose theirs.
Check yourself. You are the selfish one.
Good work - Labelling someone is really going to help them hear your point of view… And that literally the precise opposite of what I am trying to say, which is that the posted rules are the thing that applies here. If loud kids are not prohibited the signs saying “be quiet” are no longer there, they are not technically in the wrong.
FTR, I totally think the parents are actually the assholes here, and not OP. My point is that if OP did indeed confront them, and he was insulted, he has little recourse but to walk away or find someone in charge of that space to deal with it. If there are definitively clearly posted rules, then point that out to them would help. Alternatively, talking to the librarian in charge is the next step.
I read OPs post more about this being a more common thing in libraries, and I hope that with enough complaints the loud kids will either stop coming, or learn to be more respectful (because yes, that is a parents job to teach their kids that). Unfortunately, I don’t think that will be the case as we have all but lost the ability to see someone else’s point of view.
