And instead changing the time work and other things happens depending on where you are. Would be easier to arrange meetings across the globe. Same thing applies to summertime. You may start work earlier if you want, but dont change the clocks!
Grateful for this thread. Never thought about how its actually useful to have different zones to know whether to call or other things. Kinda makes a lot of sense
There are lots of negative opinions in this thread. But I think it is actually a good idea!
It makes time math a lot easier. Of course the switching cost is very high. (And probably not worth it). Much like it would be better if we counted using base 12 it is a better system once the switch would be made.
The main upside is that it is very easy to agree on times. I’ve had job interviews missed because time math was done wrong. They told me my local time and the interviewer their local time but they didn’t match! And it isn’t obvious to either party. When I see “10:00 America/Toronto, 08:00 America/San Francisco” it isn’t really obvious that there was an error here unless you happen to have the offset memorized. With a global time everyone would immediately agree on a time.
One common complaint is that you can no longer use “local time” to estimate if someone is available. But if anything I consider this a feature! Not everyone wakes up at 8 and is at work by 9. Some people prefer to have meetings later, some prefer earlier. Maybe it is best to stop assuming and just asking people. “Hey, what times do you like to take meetings at?” But even if you don’t want to do that it is just as easy to look up “work hours in San Francisco” than it is to look up “current time in San Francisco”. (In fact it may be easier since you don’t need to then do math to find the offset and hope that daylight savings doesn’t change the offset between when you look it up and when the event happens.) On top of that if someone schedules a meeting with you then you immediately know if it works well for you, because you know what times you like to have meetings at. IMHO it is much better to know the time of the meeting reliably than to try to guess if it is a good time for other parties. If the other parties can reliably know what time it is scheduled for they know if it is a good time for them, and can let you know if it isn’t.
I think the real main downside is in how we talk about times and dates. Right now it is very common to say something like Feb 15th, 14:00-19:00. However if the day number changes during the day it can be a bit confusing. But honestly I’m sure we will get used to this quickly. Probably it just ends up being assumed. If you write Feb 15th 22:00-03:00 people know that the second time is the the 16th. People working night shifts deal with this problem now and it has never seemed like a big complaint. Things like “want to grab dinner on the 15th” may be a bit more confusing if your day rolls over around dinner time where you are, but I’m sure we would quickly adopt conventions to solve this problem. It would definitely be a big change, but these aren’t hugely complex problems. Language and culture would quickly adapt.
So overall I think it is better. It makes it 100% reliable to agree and discuss specific times and it doesn’t really change the difficulty of identifying a good time in a particular location. The only real downside is how we communicate about time currently, but I think that would be pretty easy to overcome.
However I don’t think it is really worth changing. It would be a huge shift for a relatively little gain. How about we just focus on getting rid of Daylight Savings Time for now, then we can ponder switching to UTC and base 12 counting in the future.
“you’re fucking late to your goddamn shift you lazy piece of shit it’s already 35*()*46 B,shk past 73!!”
We do. It’s called swatch time.
(Seriously)
I was scrolling all the way down, looking for someone to mention Swatch Internet Time. I never got the hang of it, with regards to what beats related to various times of the day for myself, but I love the idea.
I really wish that had caught on. Were you a Phantasy Star Online player, by chance?
Lol. i was!
For synchronizing of things like work and school we’d still end up with zones all using the same local hours (the day goes from 4:00 to 4:00 to e.g.) so we’d still end up with timezones there…
All of the clocks around the world would read the same, sure, but now you have no idea what part of the day 4:00 is somewhere else. You’d end up doing almost the same math as we do now by offsetting their time from yours so you could understand it (4:00 is the same as my 13:00 for e.g. so it’s one hour past noon over there) but now we lose the shared understanding of which numbers correspond to which times of day. This means you’d be having to mentally convert all their new times of day to the clock time instead of having intuitive sense of their meaning.
Instead of seeing the local time is 12:00 and immediately knowing it’s noon, now you’d look up what time their day started and see how many hours it’s been since then (12, so it’s noon there) and that offset is how you’d need to think of it and already what clocks show now…
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So You Want To Abolish Time Zones
In a nutshell:
Before abolishing time zones:
I want to call my Uncle Steve in Melbourne. What time is it there?
Google tells me it is currently 4:25am there.
It’s probably best not to call right now.
After abolishing time zones:
I want to call my Uncle Steve in Melbourne. What time is it there?
It is 04:25 (“four twenty-five”) there, same as it is here.
Does that mean I can call him?
I don’t know.
In one of these stories you used Google and in the other you didn’t. Both of these problems are solveable with Google
You already have to Google for what time it is in another part of the world, and Google can also tell you when sunup, solar noon, sundown, and midnight are in Melbourne, so it sounds like you aren’t any worse off without time zones.
If you actually want to know if the sun is up somewhere else, then you want a world clock. At a glance visibility on the current position of the sun for every location on the globe, no time zones necessary.
Just add 11 to utc.
No harder than having different times in different places.
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It’s a situation where there are benefits to either option but one probably outweighs the other massively in frequency. I schedule many more international meetings and make many more international calls than the number of times I’ve needed a global event time. And that’s kinda saying something since I’m a space geek that looks for astronomical events, which are all UTC. It’s fewer steps to look up the distant current time and do the math from my current time for a passive event than it is to have everyone be UTC, then look up a distant wake time or business hours, then do math to figure out what the functional time is for something requiring human input.
China is one universal time despite spanning from +5 to +9
Yeah but in your example, you wouldn’t need to look anything up either. You’re presumably very familiar with the offset of your time to their time? You’d also become familiar with their “universal time” versus your time. You’d just know what hours they’d be awake and asleep because you will have done the translation a few times.
In addition, I - personally - would find it easier to memorize times in a single system: e.g. remembering that people in China are awake from 9pm to 8am is easier for me to remember. I typically already do this in my own head. I’ll convert times to my own local time and then memorize that. Do other people not do that? I find it much easier to look at my own clock and know if I can reach out to someone internationally.
I don’t know, I’m not seeing how that’s different. You’re remembering how your clock maps to other countries, I’m remembering UTC offsets. I feel like the main thing I’m actually seeing here is really a DST issue and remembering partial-hour offsets. Neither of those would go away with abolishing time zones
It’s not that different. But you’re mentally mapping a UTC offset to your local time as well? Doesn’t that mean you have to do something like:
- Does this time work for me? (Map offset to my time)
- Does this time work for them? (Map offset to their time)
Genuine question here. Seems like you’re doing twice the time-conversions when using UTC.
If UTC is being used, I’m only converting once. If a time is given in UTC, I only need to convert to my time. If I’m looking for a time at some place (and not just looking it up directly) then I’d combine the absolute values of the offsets before doing a time conversion. I wouldn’t say my 9am is 2pm UTC and 2pm UTC is their 4pm, I’d just do my 9am is their (9+5+2=) 4pm.
Working with time zones makes it easier to keep times in your own perspective. You look up their offset and take a decent guess that their working hours match yours and you’d probably aim for something a little off from your start/end times and safely land towards the middle. To me, that sounds more reliable than hoping to find business hours posted without a distinct, clearly defined geographical divide in which you know the sun is going to shine there.
I suppose that’s where the “simplicity” really comes from in my above points: time zones give you tables of information about times elsewhere, UTC-only requires a map and interpretation. Would places refine their day time shifts narrower than an hour? A minute? A second? Look at the central time zone in the USA. Columbus, Georgia is EST at -5. Ladonia, Alabama is -6 in CST, just across the state border. 1000 miles away, Seminole TX is on the other border of CST and Lovington, New Mexico is across the border in MST at -7. With time zones, the whole region from TX to AL agrees what an 8am start time is, despite effectively being offset by a whole hour, celestially. But solar noon is only at 12 for people in the middle, at the east border of TX, 500 miles between the two city pairs above. So if everyone goes to UTC, how do you know what a place uses as their schedule? Would Marshall, TX, stay at -6 while the GA/AL pair use -5.5 and the TX/NM pair use +6.5? That 8am local start time would become 1pm UTC for Marshall, 1230utc for ga/al, and 130utc for tx/nm pairs. Would Dallas, between Marshall and Seminole, be -5.78 and start the work day at 01:46:48pm utc? Way harder to track. Hence, the railroads gave us time zones
Whether you realise it or not, there are two hours you are using here. Your local time that you suppose is automatically converted in your brain, and the international time that you can already use and is called UTC.
Learn to use UTC, problem solved.
Why do you want to create problems when there is a solution already?
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That time means nothing anymore. Time is something real, not a mere number that’s irrelevant to reality. Midday is the middle of the day and the zenith of the sun, or close enough. Midnight is the middle of the night. Etc. It doesn’t need to be exact, but it needs to mean something. In France for example 4PM is the name of the snack you eat that this time.
We already gave up the meaning of time when time zones where implemented. If it’s only going to be an approximation anyway then why bother with the added complexity of 230+ extra time zones?
Y’all are just mad that “It’s 5 o’clock somewhere” wouldn’t make sense as a jokey excuse for day-drinking anymore. =3
Timezones exist because that’s how time make sense everywhere.
Je joke works because the earth is a sphere btw. It’s not a joke, it’s a fact. That’s the whole point.
No, timezones don’t make sense everywhere, you clearly have not lived on the edge of timezones where the shift from what would be local time is notable.
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Language is also a social construct.
So, let’s put it this way. Let’s say you have this nonsensical idea of a unique timezone for the planet. We’ll base it on UTC for simplicity.
You are in new York. It’s 1000. For you in new York, it’s the middle of night. You’ll wake up in a few hours. Your day usually goes about with wake up and work around 1400, lunch around 1800, end of work around 2200, sleep around 600. You can live you life with that. It’s merely a social construct. It’s completely stupid as a construct because it’s not setup for your actual day. The 0 means absolutely nothing. The 12 and the 24 neither. Why have a 24 hours clock for this? But a decimal clock would do nothing more.
Now you need to work with someone in the UK. Can you talk to him right now? Who knows? You need to ask Internet about the time delay between where you live and where he lives. You learn it’s +6. Or -6. Who cares. Now you juggle with 2 times at your work: your usual one, and your colleague one. Congrats, you made a timezone again. When you need to know when he starts work, you do the maths : 1400-600=800. He must starts at 800, unless there’s some cultural differences.
Now what you call 1800 is called 1200 for him. You made the same concept, the lunch time, have a different name depending on where you live, and that is after the translation.
Why even have a time at this point. It’s more confusing than anything. Let’s just have minutes.
You’ll have wakeup +200 for example. At wakeup +400, it’s midday. Midday +400 is the break. Break+400 is dinner. Dinner +400 is sleepy time. Now that would be much more sensible than your unified clock. There would still be problem with timezones interaction.
But there’s nothing to do about timezones. It’s and effect of the spherical earth and general relativity. In physics, there is a clock for each and every position, and a delay between each. Most of the time it doesn’t matter, so you use your local time. But when it does, you do timezones. Because that’s how the world physically works.
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Yeah it’s too bad that we can’t have the convenience of both, right?
Hey, wait a minute…
What time zone is that minute in?!
Relevant username
I am too late. I knew this would be the top post, even though the arguments brought forth in the blog post are utterly stupid. I would even go so far as to say their arguments are presented in bad faith, because I refuse to believe the author actually thinks that’s how it would go. (They have some seriously awesome posts, I most highly recommend https://qntm.org/mmacevedo)
With time zones:
you Google what the timzone offset is (aka at which point in your local timezone the sun rises over there). Considering this sunrise time you then have to make a judgement if your uncle would be awake now.Without times zones: you Google at which time the sun rises over there. Considering this sunrise time you then have to make a judgement if your uncle would be awake now.
It’s literally the same process.
Ah yes, sunrise. That things that never ever changes depending on the time of year or location on the planet. Very dependable and memorizable thing, the sunrise.
Very dependable and memorizable thing, the sunrise.
Uh, yeah? Because it defines your circadian rhythm?
Ah yes, clock time. That things that never ever changes depending on the time of year or location on the planet. Very dependable and memorizable thing, the clock time.
The arguments are exactly the same. It basically boils down to the philosophy if you want the daily life to be controlled by clocks or by the natural sleep/wake cycle of the body.
Some prefer by the clock, because it provides a fixed constant, even if it may run counter to our very nature. You very well may prefer that. Others argue for a more natural sleep cycle, especially when it comes to school for example. Complaints about work starting too early are not exactly rare either.Some prefer by the clock, because it provides a fixed constant
Huh, you know what? I think you’re right.
Yeah, which makes the points, it’s non trivial to know when to contact people with timezones anyways. The time zone only adds more complexity.
I think the point is that people’s routine isn’t tied to sunrise. For example, in the summertime I start work about 4 hours after sunrise, and in the winter I start work 20mins after sunrise. The difference would actually be more dramatic without daylight savings With timezones and modern internet you don’t need to look up the offset at all, you just look up the current time in that zone and decide if that’s an appropriate time to call. Speaking as someone who deals with timezones a fair bit, both in work and personal life. And as someone who understands the headache of dealing with them in international computer systems, the time zone system is a very nice compromise. Though daylight savings need to die
If your start time has a 4 hour swing, how could you just look up your local time and make a choice to call?
Google tells me people are usually awake at 20:25 there.
Problem solved. This actually makes it problem simpler. With different time zones:
- Get local time.
- Convert to target time.
- Decide if your uncle is usually awake at the target time.
With one time zone:
- Get time.
- Decide if your uncle is usually awake at that time.
Exactly, it always requires knowing your uncles habits.
No shit, so no difference to the current situation.
We could all just cover our windows, take Vitamin D supplements and actually all live on the UTC timezone.
I lived in a tiny apartment with a streetlamp just outside my only window. Even with blackout curtains that room had no day/night cycle. I’m still trying to get back on a normal day/night cycle, fifteen years later.
So, that’s another method you could try.
And let the brits enjoy UTC+0 like nothing happened while the rest of the word scrambles to adapt to the new time system? This is tyranny! I demand a new system where my region is the one with UTC+0 instead!
Have UTC+0 run horizontally, instead.
And increase its width to run from +80° to -80°.
Squeeze the rest of the timezones into the polesNo! In summer time we’d be a whole hour out of our natural time! It would be too much to handle.
You still need to convert in your head to “decide if usually awake at this time”. This solves nothing. Plus what if they’re somewhere unfamiliar on a trip?
Meanwhile stuff like world time buddy or other locations on clocks are very accessible tools
The joke is that the whole world could go to sleep/wake up/work at the exact same time, day or night.
Just coordinate via asynchronous communication to schedule a time. It’s not 1935.
You: “hey uncle text me when it would be a good time to have a call”
6 hours later
Uncle: “hey i just got up, lets have a call at 4:50”
You: “thats a bid late for me, im in bed by 4:00, what about 3:30?”
Uncle: “sure sounds great”
No one needed to know anything about when people wake up, where on earth they live, etc.
Because people don’t like change, and this was set up when global communications were not yet a thing.
We are still struggling to get rid of Daylight Savings Time
Kind of the opposite though, this was setup.ehen global communications started to be a thing… Through trains. Timezones were setup for the railway system.
It would make checking the meeting time a little easier, but make scheduling it way way harder. When scheduling a meeting I want to try to make it reasonable for everyone in the meeting and without time zones I’d have to look up a unique table of when daytime is for every location. That sounds so much worse to me than having a standardized time offset where reasonable working hours are pretty consistently defined. And the main time where I need to check time zones are at scheduling time anyways. When it comes to checking the meeting time everything I use already automatically converts the time to my local time.
We would need to know what the normal time to start work in our given region would be. Perhaps we should divide the world up into longitudinal strips to designate where and when stuff like work should start, so that everyone could be synced up. Yeah, that’s be a little weird at borders, but since everyone would be aware of the borders then they’d be aware of the differences across them.
Maybe we could also just offset their time in these zones from each other so that we could standardize the times with the approximate position of the sun! That way, you could know if a local time was meant to be during the day or at night. If we didn’t do that, you’d need to figure it out and adjust your thinking everytime you went anywhere, since “noon” would lose all meaning.
Of course, when there are advantages to having a single time be represented everywhere, maybe we could have a separate time “zone” that encompasses the entire world; and when people need it they could just reference that. Some kind of universal, coordinated time zone…
Oh look, we solved all the problems of your suggestion by re-inventing the current system. Funny, that.
EDIT: alright, without the snark, what I am saying here is: we will need time zones either way, so what’s easier to coordinate: shifting the actual clock time in each zone, or shifting every other possible schedule, every person’s perception of what happens when, with each zone change? And also, UTC or Coordinated Universal Time does provide you with a single, global, same-everywhere time to use for coordination. It’s just seen as nerdy to use it, so no one in civilian life really does. Which is why you gotta go google what time a game is releasing when it’s not in your time zone
You could address Daylight Savings Time by just having people set their own schedule, but it was generally seen as easier for the government to change the clocks.
As others have mentioned, there are typically schedules that are assumed based on time. It is easier from a social setting to keep time universal and adjust based on time zones. The context informed by local time is fast more useful than a standard time.
People that proposes to replace local timezones with global UTC must be living in europe where it doesn’t impact them much if we do abolish the timezone. Now consider people that lives in the other side of the planet. Most people are active during the day, yet for them, the day will end right in the afternoon under the new system. So you tell your friend “hey, let’s meet tomorrow”, then your friend would be like “do you mean this afternoon, or in the morning next day?”. No way people living in the asia pacific would accept this without military intervension.
must be living in europe
This is a very dismissive argument. I live in a time zone where the day number would roll over during my waking day. But I still think that it would be better overall. (But not worth the switching costs.)
“do you mean this afternoon, or in the morning next day?”
It takes very little imagination to realize that this would not be an issue. “Tomorrow” would almost certainly be interpreted as roughly the next daylight period. This issue already exists as people are often up at midnight and somehow we don’t get confused when people say “I’ll see you tomorrow” at 23:55. We know that they don’t mean in 5min. This is just a source of jokes, but no one gets confused.
The real issue would be things like “want to meet on wednesday” if there is a transition during working hours or “want to go out for dinner on the 17th” if the day transition happens near dinner time. I think this would be the hardest part to adapt to, but language is a flexible thing and I doubt it would take long for it to adapt.
I still think the people that would benefit the most from this change are europeans. They are mostly borderless and often works across the member countries than spans 7 timezones, centered roughly around the utc. It’s all benefits with very little downsides.
It takes very little imagination to realize that this would not be an issue.
There are a whole loads of minor annoyances related to this, most of them would vary depending on the local culture. In addition to that, not all countries are sufficiently globalized to realize the benefits of universal time, especially 3rd world countries. People living in those countries will experiences all the drawback with none of the benefits in their daily live.
It takes very little imagination to realize that this would not be an issue. “Tomorrow” would almost certainly be interpreted as roughly the next daylight period.
So when someone is doing this international meeting stuff they have to be very careful about saying “let’s look at this tomorrow” because in various places that can mean different things depending on when each person’s night is.
I think they mean concepts like morning and evening, or day and night would remain. The difference would be that in London, midnight would be 12:00am, but in San Fransisco, midnight would be… 16:00 / 4:00pm. Each timezone would have to adjust the numbers, in the same way the southern hemisphere considers January to be in the summer.
I think the compromise would be the country/region that proposes global time should get the +12h offset. If the benefit really outweigh the pain for them, then they can deal with such a large offset themselves and spare the rest of the world from the brunt of the pain.
nah, a 12-hour offset is boring and easy to deal with. give them a 6-hour offset.
12h offset is where it causes the maximum confusion to society because the date changes right in the middle of the day. In our personal and professional live, we never considered the date can change right in the middle of the day, causing wide variety of minor inconvenience in our daily life. Some examples of minor inconveniences:
- Celebrating new year at noon. No more firework shows (could be good for the environment?).
- Is today your friend’s birthday yet? Or is it in the afternoon?
- should we celebrate christmas on 24th-25th or 25th-26th? Will Santa sneaks into our house at noon?
- and possibly more minor inconveniences…
isn’t that just timezones with extra steps?
That’s usually the case.
I live and work on London time. If I want to have a phonecall with someone in the Philippines, I have to be mindful that 9am for me is 5pm for them, so I’ll need to make the effort to start early to catch them while they’re still at work.
Without timezones: If I want to have a phonecall with someone in the Philippines, I have to be mindful that their working day is 1am to 9am, so I’ll need to make the effort to start early to catch them while they’re still at work.
I’ll still need to lookup when their working day is, I’ll still have to adjust/account for it, and I’ll still have to get up early / start work early to make that call. Getting rid of timezones doesn’t get rid of that +8 or the affects of that +8, it just renames how we communicate it.
We do, it’s called Universal Coordinated Time. The time is now 00:37 UTC, or 16:37 Pacific Daylight Savings Time.
I’m a proponent of this myself. I think the big barrier to just using UTC everywhere is with the clock as a symbol: right now if you’re watching a movie or a TV show and see someone’s alarm going off at 6:00, you know “oh, they’re a pretty early riser.” If everyone used UTC, that time could be local noon, or the person could be late for work, out any number of other things.
That also applies to when people move to a new place; if I’m used to having lunch at 20:00 UTC and then move across the country, suddenly lunch is at 17:00 UTC. Symbols are really important to people, so I think these are both problematic. Meetings would be easier, but offline life would be harder.
Exactly, because right now knowing the time also tells you the time of day which is super important information. Getting rid of timezones is prioritising the wrong thing when we think about time: rarely do we care what the clock shows in a different place, we care about what it means.
Removing that meaning is a step backwards. There’s no point having all of our clocks show the same number if that doesn’t mean anything anymore.
Because time relates to the position sun and tells us something about what period of the day it is in that timezone. Your proposal would strip off that information, which means that you would have to look up in a different system what the business hours are in another country, when it’s night, etc. That means that you’re basically reinventing timezones by putting them in a separate system, which defeats the purposes and makes it more complicated than it already is.
Sure, time differences might be a bit cumbersome, but timezones have a name and can be converted from one to another. Also, most digital calendars (for meetings, etc) have timezone support and work perfectly fine when involving people from multiple timezones. To find a good moment to meet, you will still have to keep the time difference in mind, but in the current system you can at least take it into account just by looking at the time difference.
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you would have to look up in a different system what the business hours are in another country
Don’t you need to do this anyways? Different businesses open at different times. Different people work at different times. In some countries restaurants and shops tend to open relatively later and in some they open relatively earlier.
Really it just saves a step. From:
- It is 12:00 here.
- Is is 9:00 there.
- Do they open at 9?
To:
- Is is 12:00 here.
- Do they open at 12?
Sure, step 3 can often be guessed. (It is highly likely that a business is open at 14:00 local time) But you still need to look up an exact number to convert from local time to target time. So instead you just look up when they open (or what time businesses are usually open in that place).
Sure, but roughly speaking you know that 14:00 local time is probably okay for a business call, whereas 2:00 local time is probably not. You can get that information in a standardized way and the minor deviations due to local preferences and culture can be looked up or learned if needed. In contrast, with the other system there is no standard way of getting that information, except for using a search engine, Wikipedia, etc. The information not encoded anymore in the time zone, because there is no timezone.
Also, consider this: every software program would have to interpret per country what “tomorrow” means. I mean, when I’m postponing something with a button until tomorrow morning, I sure want to sleep in between. I don’t want tomorrow morning to be whenever it’s 8:00 hours in my country, which can be right after dinner. That means yet again that we need to have a separate source giving us the context of what the local time means, which is already encoded in the current system with time zones.
Not to mention the fact that it’s plain weird to go to a new calendar day in the middle of the day. “Let’s meet the 2nd of January!” That date could span an afternoon, the night and the morning after. That feels just plain weird and is not compatible with how we’re used to treat time. Which country will get the luxury of having midnight when it’s actually night?
I don’t think we would entirely remove the concept of a timezone. Your computer would likely have some sort of proxy for “day time”. Likely even some time offset from a reference. You would just talk in term of global time. But when you snooze an email “until tomorrow” your email client would still have some notion of “when I start work tomorrow” is.
I think you are sort of assuming that we will just be transported into this new world. But you have to account for the fact that language would adapt. With this mindset every change is a bad one. I agree that the transition would be incredibly painful. So painful that it almost certainly isn’t worth it. But that doesn’t mean that the other system is worse. It can be better, but too different to be worth adopting it.
Let’s meet the 2nd of January!
I agree that this is probably the biggest issue. It would take a lot of getting used to. But I’m sure that our language would adapt. And if this is the biggest problem I will take it over not knowing what times people are talking about any day of the week.
