I guess this is a correct community to post about this? If not let me know.
My company finally is asking politely that we have to go to the office twice a week. Or else. That else is not yet defined, but obviously there will be consequences of not going to the office.
I have been at this company for 15 years, from junior dev to manager.
I did a daily commute of about 40 mins in the morning, 40 to an hour back, never gave a second thought about that. That was normal.
After pandemics, I found out all I have been missing on my kids growing up. My second kid is much more attached to me since she saw me daily, even if I was in my office room at home, she got to see me more often.
So I found out how much my life improved by doing working at home. Hell in the middle of this sentence my kid just showed me some thing she drew.
I stood my ground, I basically politely told HR that I am not going back. And actually my reasons make sense, I work with people in other countries, they don’t care where I am.
And it will affect my performance, driving to the office, moving all my equipment, and having people around trying to talk to me will take a toll.
So yeah, I am polishing my resume, because there is no turning back now. I will be shunted if I ask for a raise, they can easily say “hey but you are not coming to the office, how come you want a raise if you are not part of the team”, never mind that I do everything that is expected and more.
Just off my chest I guess, and anxious about the future.
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You should definitely stop doing “more”, also.
That was a figure of speech haha.
I am old and experienced enough to work exactly the hours I am paid. I give my 100% on those hours, I am all in, and I always push back when they try to sneak a meet after my EOD, try to get some extra hours from me and so on.
Sounds like my employer. Vague messaging from the CEO a few months back about going into the office, but that it was up to managers to determine what was best for their teams.
Now, the CEO is chiding people for not being in the office at least twice a week. Luckily I’m in a market with a strong presence for my area, but those hotspots are being told to come in at least twice a week.
As a manager, I did have this “up to managers what is best for your teams” conversation with my remote team.
“Can y’all still remotely do the job you’ve done for several years remotely?”
“Uh. Yeah. Are you going to ask us to come back to the office?”
“Hiring new developers after several of you give notice would be a huge waste of my professional time, so no.”
“I guess we told you.”
“I’m glad we sorted that out.”
Something to consider would be to unionize your workplace, if everyone says this is dumb I’m not doing it and they have the extra legal protections of being in a union then these shit ass Bosses can’t do anything about it.
I’ve often tried to foster the idea with others of starting a programmer’s union. What do folks think of that?
Like, just imagine of even 1% of FAANG workers unionized.
Honestly more work places need to unionize and I think a programmer’s union would be great.
Programmers unions are rare but pretty great. They’re rare because even individual programmers have massive bargaining power.
They’re pretty great beacuse as much fun as it is to go take even more money somewhere else - it’s even nicer to just stay at a good job with reasonable benefits.
I am looking for work and when I give salary requirements its for wfh. I will do in office but its a 20% premium or 4% per day required in the office. In addition I work from home from start time to end time except when I take lunch. I work from the office from when I get there to end time and for lunch which is something delays me oh well I have to deal with whats around and when talking with folks in the office or whatever.
My in-person premium is currently 300%.
But I’ll look amazing* while I show up to collect my massive pile of money, should anyone take me up on it.
*Does Apple even make cars and shirts and dress shoes yet? I’ll have to hire a fashion consultant, if it ever comes up.
Yeah. Im definitely the cheaper whore between you and me.
You have IT manager experience, my dude. You’ll definitely find some remote work either back on the dev side or still in management. My company tried to pull this too but joke’s on them because I moved 200 miles away from the office during Covid. The Economist recently published an article which cites a study that says working from home is not as productive as previously thought, because of the aggregate value that unplanned micro-interactions in the office can provide. Not sure I agree…
Yeah, a lot of the studies about remote work being less productive I find faulty. In my work/team we saw huge productivity gains. Now company-wide are asking for return to office and I’m telling my team not to comply and refer complaints to me (manager). We do go in once a week (in-person interactions have a benefit, but there’s diminishing returns to how often these in person benefits occur). Often this will be lined up with client meeting, in-person performance reviews, team lunch, etc.
The international remote teams are already complaining. They can’t have the usual meetings because my team is commuting to the office on X day of week. Yeah, early morning meeting with India, EU, etc are a staple now (and part of our productivity boost, it’s better to meet when it’s not super late for them). When commute to office returned I (and others) booked commute as a time block so the international teams didn’t try to get us on calls in the car. If the company wants that time block back for meetings the involved members don’t come in.
This will eventually come to a head, but I’m standing with my team members and improved metrics over blanket C-level demands. The business case is already written up for the first time they complain.
Managing a team of developers, “unplanned micro-interactions” are just about the last thing I want them to have more of.
Good for you! Children are only children once, jobs will always be jobs. I definitely am not going back to the office & will freelance if I have to. (software)
Sounds like it’s definitely time for a new job. 15 years is a long time, especially in IT.
I’ve been working from home for 12+ years and I can honestly say I wouldn’t want to work in an office. It would take a very very large number to make me consider it.
Commuting, having to buy “work clothes” etc, adds up. It’s time and money I don’t need to spend.
There was a brief period my boss tried to force us into the office. However anyone I would have to talk to in person was in our CT office (I was asked to go to the NYC office), so it was ultimately pointless and he dropped the issue.
I travel occasionally, for large projects or things that require in-person effort, but it’s not often. I’m currently on my second trip of 2023 and none expected the rest of the year.
(I started as one of two SysAdmins and I’m currently a manager of a SysAdmin team that’s spread out from California, Vegas, Florida and Poland.)
While I do agree face time with people occasionally is nice (we got everyone out on the project earlier this year except for Poland guy) and I find it helps remind you that the voice on the other side of the call is a human but if you have people who can deal with it, it’s not required. Only thing that we gained productivity-wise was a better sense of comradery going forward.
This might not be an answer but my worked also requested us come in 2 days a week. So I ride my bike in around 11am and back home about 1pm. WFH the rest of the hours. I’m all about malicious compliance.
I do this too and I actually like this arrangement. I can take a break in the day and bike or walk into work. Hang out for an hour or two and leave. That’s really the gain of going back to office; hanging out with your colleagues. I’m more productive at home.
Malicious compliance 😂
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Good on you for quitting.
I would HIGHLY advise though, ensuring you have another job lined up before quitting. Lined up as in, you have the paperwork signed. It’s common these days to go months without any work. I’ve been at it for a few years myself, and I’m a tech lead.
You’ve been looking for work for a few years as a tech lead?
Yup, but I’m switching things up. (just check my casual conversations post I just posted).
my new-ish job wants us to come into the office as hybrid (for now) basis; so i moving some where that has trains so i can sleep during the commute
I feel this so much.
I was hired specifically on a WFH contract, so I don’t think my company will be pushing for this. I’m okay with going to the office for the occasional big meeting and such, that’s fine. It’s fun even, meeting my colleagues in person.
However, due to a list of reasons working in an office for a longer period of time is not sustainable for me. It takes a toll both on my physical health and my mental health. I’m perfectly able to do most anything anyone else can do, but I cannot handle the deluge of social interaction that comes with working in an office and commuting.
Thus there are two options. Either I continue working from home, and I’ll be a productive member of society. Or I’ll go to office, and sooner or later become essentially disabled. I find the former much more enticing and fulfilling than the latter.
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I don’t think there are plenty of remote jobs anymore. They’re highly sought after.
You and I have had very different experiences. My organization has grown my 5x in the last few years and all added positions were fully remote.
But I agree that remote roles are highly sought after. I think there’s a correlation effect: Excellent dev managers create fully remote teams, and word gets out that they’re excellent to work for.
This will, sadly, settle out when the shitty managers catch on.
On a more personal note, hang in there. You can be top tier talent and still walk into a desirable job interview right after a unicorn candidate for that role.
Can confirm - have been looking for four months for remote roles. I’ve done maybe 20 or so interviews to various stages, but no offers.
The industry in general is bleak right now.
But it is possible; probably easier with 15 YoE.
What kinds of positions are you applying to?
mid-level (5ish YoE) SWE and MLE/ MLOps roles
More annoyingly, there have been so many baits and switches/ playing fast and loose with the term remote.
- Job description title: “remote”
- Job description body: “remote 2 days a week!”
or, halfway through the process
“Sorry, initial job description has been filled. Here’s another role, though, which is incidentally equivalent to the old one but the job description now says hybrid!! :) :)”
Ah nice you’re on a good track (I can’t do AI/ML).
I feel you on that bait and switch, these recruiters are savages and companies desperate.
Is that good lol Tbh I’m trying to get away from it and become a backend generalist because I’m sick of the (1) ML hype that leads to absurdly unrealistic / unsatisfiable requirements and (2) the need to work with internal customers (data science people, etc)
I’ve seen in tech. But the great majority of those are either US or EU only. Outside of that, it’s pretty bleak.
Yes, I am old enough to know that you are selling your expertise and time.
The company obviously profits a lot more that what you receive.
Also I always cringe with this “family” stuff on any company, that is just a way to manipulate the employees into creating a relationship with the company.
“We’re family!.. If you count those toxic families that are governed by raging narcissists. You wanted vindictive feuds, useless arbitrary rules, power-tripping, victim blaming, a cult of personality over management, and extreme punitive actions, right? Right?!”
My last place had a strong cult vibe to it. That was bad enough. But the part that really tripped me out were the overly-bubbly ‘glee squad’ employees who spent half their time fishing over how life changing our employer was, and the other half literally crying over… how life changing our employer was. It was incredibly cringe. I felt embarrassed for them.
I once worked at one of those “family” places.
One day the boss told me he didn’t think I was particularly dedicated to that place.
I said “No shit. That’s why you have to pay me to show up every day.”
That put an end to that line of reasoning.
Good for you mate
