At work we somehow landed on the topic of how many holes a human has, which then evolved into a heated discussion on the classic question of how many holes does a straw have.
I think it’s two, but some people are convinced that it’s one, which I just don’t understand. What are your thoughts?
one hole is going through the straw
No it’s two holes
- A straw is a continuous surface without any holes.
@MrCrowBard @RealNooshie is that so?
this the best answer
The answer depends on the context. Topologically, it’s one. I personally like zero. If I say “There’s a hole in my straw!” You’ll not think all straws have holes. You’ll think there’s something wrong with it.
To be fair, I think shirts already have holes, but if I said “there’s a hole in my shirt” you’d think there was an EXTRA hole
I was also thinking zero. I picture a straw as a rectangular piece of material that’s been curled to form a cylinder, and in my mind that rectangle has no holes in it. I was confused when I saw that the options were only one or two.
As far as 2D topology is concerned the number of holes increase when you glue the edges of the rectangle together.
Though in that case you’re basically counting how many boundaries the surface has, which for a straw is 2 distinct circles.
A cup is essentially a self-contained hole that we pour stuff in, but if I say there’s a hole in my cup you’d know what I meant
From a topology perspective, a cup does not have a hole. A mug does, but its the hole that the handle makes, not the area containing liquid.
I see a lot of folks referencing topology, but clearly topology is not a particularly good go-to for how to talk about holes.
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From a topological perspective, a hole in the ground isn’t a hole… But you can still fall into it.
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From a topological perspective, a hole in your logic isn’t a hole – but you can still have one.
Clearly we’re talking linguistically, not topologically.
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No, I´ll be puzzled for a second and then think you are making a joke.
If you say “There’s a hole in my straw” I think it’s always implied you’re talking about an unexpected hole. You can also say “There’s a hole in my sweater/pasta strainer/etc” and people would get you’re talking about a hole that is not supposed to be there. Straws are the same. They have one hole and you’d be unhappy if another appeared.
Relevant Vsauce video https://youtu.be/egEraZP9yXQ
Judging by what this video by Vsauce about how many holes a human has it should be one in a straw. A straw is basically just a long doughnut and there’s one hole in those.
1 ‘hole’ if you can call it that. Imagine if the straw started life as a solid cylinder and you had to bore out the inside to turn it into a straw: if that were the case, you would drill 1 hole all the way through it.
Another analogy is a donut. Would you agree that a donut has just 1 hole? I would say yes. Now stretch that donut vertically untill you have a giant cylinder with a hole in the middle. That’s basically now just a straw. The fact you stretched it doesn’t increase the number of holes it has.
You just blew my mind. Thanks.
Imagine if the straw started life as a solid cylinder and you had to bore out the inside to turn it into a straw
This would mean a straw has a hole, yes. It would be like a donut indeed - donuts are first whole, then have the hole punched out of them. This meets a dictionary definition of a hole (a perforation). A subtractive process has removed an area, leaving a hole.
But straws aren’t manufactured this way, their solid bits are additively formed around the empty area. I personally don’t think this meets the definition.
Your topological argument is strong though - both a donut and straw share the same topological feature, but when we use these math abstractions, things can be a bit weird. For instance, a hollow torus (imagine a creme-filled donut that has not yet had its shell penetrated to fill it) has two holes. One might not expect this since it looks like it still only obviously has one, but the “inner torus” consisting of negative space (that represents the hollow) is itself a valid topological hole as well.
“This meets a dictionary definition of a hole.
But straws aren’t manufactured this way, their solid bits are additively formed around the empty area. I personally don’t think this meets the definition.”
By this logic, how I make a doughnut changes whether it has a hole.
If I make a long string of dough and then connect the ends together and cook it (a forming process) it doesn’t have a hole.
If I cut a hole in a dough disc and then cook (a perforation) it has a hole. Even though the final result is identical?
On the matter of the doughnut: If you make them at home, you’re almost always just rolling a cylinder and then making it a circle. I have never actually punched a hole out of a doughnut. That would mess up the toroidal shape.
But also: So you’re saying a straw has 0 holes?
Maybe she’s not, but I am. An intact straw has zero holes. If you stick a pin in the side, it has one. If you stick a pin all the way through, it has two.
What if you bored from both ends of the cylinder until they meet in the middle?
There would be two holes until, at the moment of contact, it becomes one?
Does the method with which the straw shaft is created influence the number of holes it has?
No, topologically there would be no holes until the moment of contact. This is the same as there being no hole when drilling through from only one side until the surface on the opposing side is broken.
Yes, but topologists can’t tell a doughnut from a coffee cup so they’re clearly insane.
So how does one “dig a hole?” Straight to China? Or whatever is opposite of you?
Topologically, yes. Buy you could also go down a bit, make a lateral tunnel, then pop back up.
So what you are saying is, if I dig a hole that doesn’t go anywhere, then that’s not really a hole?
Topologically, yes. Coincidentally, “Hole to Nowhere” is the best Talking Heads parody album.
Heh I will have to check that out!
In topology, yes. It must go through to count.
That’s fascinating. So most of what I would call “holes” are what, in topographical terms, hollows? Depressions?
Not only that, but if you pinch it in the middle until the passage closes, could it still be called just one hole?
So as you begin to bore, that is one hole. But when you go through the other side, you have in fact made two holes. I think a donut can actually be thought of either as one hole or two holes, or more correctly; two holes that are the same hole.
Back to the straw; if you make another hole in the side of the straw half way up, would it still have one hole? Or two holes? Or three holes?
A bit like thinking of the human digestive tract, most of us would agree that your mouth is a different hole to your anus, but we agree that they are in two ends of the same system
But here’s the thing. Take that doughnut and stretch it until it’s a cube with two square cutouts in it. Stretch in some of the inner walls. Now you have a house, with a door and a window. Now: does the house have two holes - a door and a window - or does it have one hole?
Topologically, still one
Locally has two extrinsic holes, that is holes relative to things outside and inside the house, globally has one intrinsic hole. We say that the door is a hole respect to the wall no to the house itself. So both the door and the window are holes locally. But we never say the house has holes, we talk about walls and ceilings so globally that house has 1 hole. Another way of thinking it is that if the house can be deformed into a filled doughnut then it can be compressed to a circle and that’s the definition of a 1-hole.
A strownut if you will
I would eat that
How many holes does a rubber band have? A donut?
Topologically a rubber band, a donut, and a straw have the same number of holes. The hole at either end of the straw is just a continuation of the same one hole.
By that argument your mouth is a continuation of your asshole… No offense.
I mean… yeah
Some people haven’t realized almost all animals are just tubes with various fancy shit glued on.
Edit: including humans
Or put biologically, virtually all fauna are just various advanced forms of flatworm.
IIRC humans have 7 holes topologically (assuming both vsauce and my memory are correct). I’m not sure how many a flatworm would have, but I bet you could group animals by number of holes topologically, which might be interesting.
Two ears, mouth/anus/nostrils, urethra, optionally vagina. That’s 5…what else, eye sockets?
Flatworms have a single opening that leads to a branching cavity (an incomplete digestive system). This means that the single opening is for both ingesting nutrients and expelling waste. While your mouth may be attached to your anus via the alimentary canal, I think it beats the hell out of having one multi-purpose opening, imho.
Right, technically a human only has 1 hole for ingesting nutrients and expelling waste as well though, assuming you are talking about the mouth and anus. Does a flatworm have any other through holes though e.g. nostrils or tear ducts? I have no idea what the biology of a flatworm is haha.
Indeed, and when you kiss someone you are making one big hole connected by two assholes.
Anal 69s just make one big reverse-donut
Anal 69s just make one big reverse-donut
Given the amount of people I know who are always full of shit, I’d buy that
I guess we all are talking out of our asses, then…
For normal people asshole would be continuation from mouth, but I don’t judge. You do you!
I assume that’s how OP’s debate of how many holes a human had ended up being about straws: someone argued that the mouth and the anus are just one hole
None of them have holes, usually. A hole goes from the outside of a volume to the inside. Those are all intact tori.
I disagree. A rubber band and a donut do not have an ‘in’ and ‘out’.
A straw does? What are you, the straw police?
A straw’s “in” and “out” are completely arbitrary. You can flip a straw either way and it’d still work.
Anything with a hole through it that isn’t perfectly 2D could have a “in” and “out” side. Your rubber band your doughnut only don’t have one because nobody ever thought to define one.
Stick your finger through a donut, does it go in one side and out the other?
Giggidy.
Take that cylinder and stretch it until it’s a cube with two square cutouts in it. Stretch in some of the inner walls. Now you have a house, with a door and a window. Now: does the house have two holes - a door and a window - or does it have one hole?
The answer will depend on what specifically is meant by “hole.” Since there is no additional context to convey a specific meaning, the question cannot be legitimately answered.
So the correct answer is “Define ‘hole’.”
Well in that case define “define”!
In this context, “define” means to provide a specific meaning assigned to a word - to clarify exactly what it is that one intends to communicate when one uses that word.
Your turn.
I think this is like how every Wikipedia article links back to philosophy. I think we’ve hit the most meta question
A straw doesn’t have holes. A straw is a hole.
Is a pipe a hole? No. We call the cylinder a pipe. A straw is a cylindrical tube. Tubes, pipes, hoses, and straws are cylindrical and hollow.
It’s unconventional to call the hollow space a hole, but as others have pointed out, a donut has one hole and if extruded, would continue to have one hole and resemble a cylinder.
As donut is not a hole. It has a hole, but it is not one. Squash a straw vertically and you have a plastic donut with one hole. The straw is the plastic part, not the hole.
@RealNooshie How many holes does a pair of pants have?
I’d say 3, not thinking of pockets or any of that. So I guess 1.5 holes per pant?
@RealNooshie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_of_pants_(mathematics)
…now, if you cut off one trouser leg, how many holes does that have?
Cut down the middle, 2. So now 4 total. But the real question is, why are you cutting your pants in half??
Fashion
Call the Met Gala, I think they’re on to something!
pores are holes
I can’t wait for Super AI to help humankind resolve these existential issues once and for all.
@RealNooshie Two.
If you make the straw less long, it’s a donut. And a donut obviously has 1 hole. So a long donut only has one hole. Q.E.D
I didn’t expect all the other comments to also use donuts to explain this
Great discussion in this thread. Now we know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall.
