The sun dial worked during daylight, but how did people agree on what time it was at night before clocks were invented?

  • @[email protected]
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    1 year ago

    So I got scooped on the whole candle thing, which I really wanted to go with. Instead, I’m going to pivot and say that accurate timekeeping - day or night - was actually driven by the needs of navigation. 

    You could get a pretty good idea of when it was based on the position of the sun and stars, as long as you knew where you were. The opposite is also true - you could figure out where you were, as long as you knew what time it was (and had the appropriate charts/data). The problem was that, while sailing around the world, ships often didn’t know either one.

    For rough purposes, people used things like candles. In some cases, monks would recite specific prayers at a given cadence to keep track of time overnight and so know when to wake the others. These methods, as well as later inventions like the pendulum clock that used a known time component to drive watch mechanisms, were all but useless for navigation due to inaccuracies. They were good enough in the 1200s to let the monks know when to pray, though.

    • @[email protected]
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      11 year ago

      Fun fact: we’re pretty sure this is why hourglasses (or sand clocks in general) were invented! They flow at a pretty consistent rate even on board a ship, and were basically just a tweak on the design of a water clock.

    • @[email protected]
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      61 year ago

      The first pendulum clocks “broke” when shipped to other parts of the world. They didn’t keep the same time as the place of manufacture because gravity was ever so slightly different (Earth being an oblate spheroid) approaching the equator slowed the clocks down enough to slowly lose time.

      • @[email protected]
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        31 year ago

        There were so many problems with monitoring time. Even today I always dread it a bit. While we’ve tried to at least move the issues from the mechanistic to the philosophical, we still run into things like the Y2K and the 2038 problems. Hell, I remember running into an issue with calculating leap years and such as an undergrad.

        I like to think that, if nothing else, it gives me a greater appreciation for Discworld.

    • TruthAintEasy
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      101 year ago

      To touch on the reciting of prayers, they would also use that to time mixing of substances and what little medical procedures they had. Neat!

      • @[email protected]
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        11 year ago

        Yup! I really love the whole story there. It was sort of like the space race but with tall masted ships and pirates and such.

        I mean, you also had the slave trade, but if you blithely ignore the discomforting parts of history, reading about it can be fun.

  • Ð Greıt Þu̇mpkin
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    451 year ago

    They actually didn’t for the most part, hour level divisions were mostly for the sake of tracking time in the daytime, when having that level of precision could be important for things like jobs or time sensitive tasks, but at night all that really mattered was that you got to bed with enough time to get a full night’s sleep.

  • @[email protected]
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    1 year ago

    Oh hey! I actually read into this recently. It came from wondering what exactly “The Witching Hour” was, and apparently it was invented by Christians and it’s between 3am and 4am. I thought “oh hey that’s interesting when did that start?”, and then when I read that it may have started back in 1535 I was like “Wait how the fuck did they know it was 3am in 1535? When were clocks invented?!”

    So that’s when I found out that mechanical clocks actually date back to the 1300s

    So then I was like “well how did they tell time at night before that?” and it ends up that all the way back in the 16th century BC, they had these things called water clocks. So basically, they had figured out the sun dial a few hundred years before that, and while tracking an hour, they had 2 vessels, one full of water and the other empty. They would have the water flow from one to the other so that when the top vessel was empty, x amount of time had passed (for sake of simplicity call it a hour), then they would pour the water back into the top vessel to measure the next hour, and they were able to do this without the sun. It was basically the same concept of an hourglass (which actually didn’t come around until 1000 AD) but with water.

    And before sundials and water clocks? I dunno. I guess they just went to sleep when the sun went down, and woke up when it came up, and didn’t plan things around specific times. Sounds pretty nice, honestly.

  • @[email protected]
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    61 year ago

    By analyzing how the values on the Sun Dial would change throughout the year due to the precession of the Earth’s axis, you can infer the length of night. However, once we realized that quartz is really good at defining a second, we were able to use oscillation as a means of telling time without sunlight.

    • @[email protected]
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      41 year ago

      Quartz? Quartz clocks are about 100 years old. You make it sound ljke we went from sundials to Casios lol. Mechanical clocks are around 1800 years old. Pendulum clocks around 500 years old and spring mechanical slightly younger.

      • silly goose meekah
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        11 year ago

        If spring and pendulum clocks were only invented after 1300 years of clocks existing, how did clocks work before? Powered by a weight pulling down that has to be lifted back up every so often?

        • @[email protected]
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          11 year ago

          Essentially yes. I don’t know how much of the designs but weight driven and earlier water driven clocks existed.

          • silly goose meekah
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            11 year ago

            Oooh water driven, of course. I think that’s the first thing humans did to harness natures power right?

  • @[email protected]
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    761 year ago

    They didn’t. They went to sleep shortly after dark, woke up around midnight to fuck and eat, then went back to sleep until dawn. For hundreds of thousands of years.

  • BarqsHasBite
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    131 year ago

    how did people agree on what time it was at night

    They didn’t. There was no need to and no way to do it anyway.

  • @[email protected]
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    351 year ago

    Precise time came to humanity with the railroad. Until then no one cared very much about whether it was 11:35 PM or “around midnight” or “way past bedtime.” Train timetables were the first thing that made minutes matter to the general public.

    Mariners cared about time and preferred to be as precise as possible, but did pretty well telling local time by the stars. Finding longitude was a problem until good clocks came aling though.

    • Encrypt-Keeper
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      21 year ago

      Well if by “precise time” you mean “minute hands regularly being included in pocket/wristwatches” then yes. But we did have mechanical clocks for a couple hundred years by that point which were more precise than “around midnight” or “way past bedtime”. Given their linear nature, and measurement by the hour, even without a minute hand you could tell when it was quarter past, half past, quarter till an hour.

  • Patapon Enjoyer
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    2951 year ago

    Bro why you trying to divide the day into so many chunks the industrial revolution hasn’t happened yet just go to bed

  • @[email protected]
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    701 year ago

    The stars have a very predictable pattern to them, ancient people had nothing better to do at night than look up, and since there was no light pollution it was quite a show.

    Depending on the time of year, some constellations would be visible all night and move across the sky. That’s where the original Zodiac signs came from.

    • Admiral Patrick
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      1 year ago

      This past winter, I started using Orion as a clock while I was out walking the dogs in the evenings. Got pretty good and could guesstimate the time to within about 30 minutes.

      That only works until about 3 am or so, but if I was out more often that late, I could probably just pick a different constellation.

      • @[email protected]
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        61 year ago

        How long do you spend walking your dogs!? Just look at the clock when you go out and won’t you still be accurate to within 30 minutes when you get back?

        • Admiral Patrick
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          1 year ago

          Ha, I phrased it poorly.

          What I meant was that I started noticing Orion’s position in the sky at certain relatively fixed times. After a while, I could just look at where it was, relative to the horizon, and determine the current time within about 30 minutes (between about 5:30 PM and 3 AM when it’s above the horizon here)

      • @[email protected]
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        471 year ago

        Look at this fancy mf able to see Orion at night without it being blocked out by ludicrous amounts of light pollution

      • @[email protected]
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        21 year ago

        could guesstimate the time to within about 30 minutes.

        Which is more than precise enough for the people in the time OP is asking about.

    • @[email protected]
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      181 year ago

      It’s actually easier to tell the time using the stars rather than the sun, because the elevation of the sun is hard to estimate without using a device like a sundial; but there are always stars near enough to the horizon that their elevation can be estimated with the unaided eye.

      • @[email protected]
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        81 year ago

        Wouldn’t I have to know where stars usually are in order to know the time at night? With the sun all I need is to know which is west vs east.

        • @[email protected]
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          1 year ago

          Without light pollution most people can identify the stars with a few nights practice.

          • Flax
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            31 year ago

            Things like Orion and Ursa Major are dead easy. Cassiopeia isn’t hard either. And then with less light pollution you have Andromeda and such.

        • @[email protected]
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          131 year ago

          In theory, yes. In practice, you only have to watch the first night, pick a recognizable star pattern. Follow it across the sky during the night and from then on you can use that first read as your reference. Specific stars, their names or whatever is irrelevant as long as you can find the same group of stars every night. Without light pollution it is trivially easier as far more stars are visible and constellations are obvious.

  • 𞋴𝛂𝛋𝛆
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    1 year ago

    Water clock was a possibility but uncommon. Early industrial age was a person that you paid to come bang on your shutters until you responded.

    Most people just kept a circadian routine. Another trick is to simply drink as much water as you need so that you will wake up after a given amount of time.

    The idea of time as a unit of measure that is critical for task completion is a rather new invention of current culture.

  • @[email protected]
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    1 year ago
    • An amusing way people used to wake up early was by drinking extra water before going to sleep. Their full bladder would wake them in the early morning hours (unless they overdid it, in which case they had to use the potty in the middle of the night and then overslept).

    • Animal noises. Most people had animals or lived near other people with animals, so the morning hours had a bunch of typical animal noises (animals, like humans, have an inner clock, and some animals are programmed to wake up before dawn).

    • Logs near the stove. A seasonal thing, but in winter, if you know you usually refill the stove 3 or 4 times during the night, you can tell how much of the night has passed through your wood stack.

    The bi-phasic sleep thing also helped (take a good nap around noon, but also wake up at midnight and drink a beer with the neighbors). The point of midnight may have been rather arbitrary, though.

    As far as I’m aware, candles were affordable, but the average person still couldn’t afford to burn down a candle every day to work or measure time, so once it got dark, normal work ceased and, at best, a family would meet in front of the stove and tell stories, knit or carve for a while.

    • THE MASTERMIND
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      31 year ago
      • An amusing way people used to wake up early was by drinking extra water before going to sleep. Their full bladder would wake them in the early morning hours (unless they overdid it, in which case they had to use the potty in the middle of the night and then overslept).

      I still try to do this sometimes