I WFH, every year one of the goals that the rest of the team decides is that it’s “so great” to see each other in person. The past few years haven’t worked out but one did. I spent hours in a couple of airports, the huge expense for the company, I spent days away from my family, and for what? So you could look me in my same face you would see if we turned cameras on every once in a while? My husband says I’m being weird, but I legitimately want to know, what is the benefit? I hate being there and have to play nice so you can…look me even closer in the face?
You’re not being weird. Some people like face to face, some don’t. Not everybody’s the same and to claim that would be naive. Unfortunately, there are more people who enjoy face to face than not, and most of them work in management: management is interacting with people --> you have to like interacting with people to be at least a passable manager --> the chances are much higher you enjoy doing that face to face --> management makes decisions --> face to face is valued.
Same goes for salary: management is there to delegate work --> they are disconnected with the day to day of workers because they don’t do their work --> management sees workers as less qualified than themselves --> logically never would pay those “less qualified” same or more than themselves. Management makes decisions so guess who gets paid more…
It’s just how things shake out. If workers become management, they too forget how things are and slip into the same pattern observed above. It’s just unfortunate how the human brain works.
Not to say that being in an office is better for everyone, and I think people should be able to freely choose a working style that fits them best. There are a few benefits of in person meetings and gathering, here are some I thought of.
A: To make sure You didn’t outsource work assigned to you to someone in a foreign country for a fraction of your salary.
B: To bring up the whole team in one place to look at something, and/or socialize in a way you just can’t over a virtual call.
C: To cross-communicate between departments more, and proactively avoid silos of information on multidisciplinary projects.
D: Meetings and calls can feel more transactional when done virtually than in person, there’s less ability to talk about other stuff besides a brief bit of small talk at the beginning or end.
E: Extroverted people feel lonely with prolonged work from home just as much as introverted people get tired out from being around others for long.
F: A manager needs to get more than just a verbal answer on something. Someone can easily just say “yeah yeah everything’s fine”, but there’s stuff with unspoken body language that can be gauged much better in an in-person conversation.
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Would you rather do remote team building exercises regularly?
Yes
I’d rather not do team building exercises because I find them pointless.
You sound like a shitty teammate
Fair question! I’d say no. There is some benefit, but nothing replaces in-person interaction.
For those of us who WFH, I think there’s a balance to be figured out. All of this is really new.
You sound like a Solarian
In The Naked Sun Isaac Asimov portrays a world focused on avoiding physical contact with other people. The Solarians interact with each other largely through technology. They live far from each other, spread out across a sparsely populated planet. People are taught from birth to avoid physical contact, and live on huge estates, either alone or with their spouse only. Face-to-face interaction (referred to in the book as “seeing”) is seen as a repugnant chore. Communication takes place through technology unknown of off their world: holography, 3-D television. Communicating with each other in this fashion is referred to as “viewing”, in contrast to “seeing”, which is face-to-face. Communication is frequent, but it is “viewing” of a transmitted image. 1
Go back to your caves of steel
I’m actually shocked to find how many people agree with the OPs sentiment, but maybe there’s something about the demographics of who’s using a FOSS Reddit alternative or something. I’m not saying everyone is wrong or has something wrong with them or whatever, but I entirely agree with people finding this valuable, so maybe I can answer the OPs question here.
I’ve been working remotely long since before the pandemic. I’ve worked remotely for multiple companies and in different environments. I am extremely introverted and arguably anti social. I tend to want to hang out with many of my friends online over in person. But that doesn’t mean I think there’s no advantage at all. To be honest, when I first started remote work, I thought the in person thing was total bullshit. After a few meetings my opinions drastically changed.
I’ve pushed (with other employees, of course) to get remote employees flown in at least a few times a year at multiple companies. There are vastly different social dynamics in person than over video. Honestly, I don’t understand how people feel otherwise, especially if they’ve experienced it. I’ve worked with many remote employees over the years and asked about this, and most people have agreed with me. Many of these people are also introverted.
I think one of the big things here is people harping on the “face” thing. Humans communicate in large part through body language - it’s not just faces. There’s also a lot of communication in microexpressions that aren’t always captured by compressed, badly lit video. So much of communication just isn’t captured in video.
Secondly, in my experience, online meetings are extremely transactional. You meet at the scheduled time, you talk about the thing, then you close the meeting and move on. In person, people slowly mosy over to meetings. And after the meeting ends, they tend to hang around a bit and chat. When you’re working in an office, you tend to grab lunch with people. Or bump into them by the kitchen. There’s a TON more socializing happening in person where you actually bump into other people and talk them as people and not just cogs in the machine to get your work done.
I find in person interactions drastically change my relationships with people. Some people come off entirely different online and it’s not until meeting them in person that I really feel like I know them. And then I understand their issues and blockers or miscommunications better and feel more understanding of their experiences.
Maybe things are different if you work jobs with less interdepencies or are more solo. I’ve always worked jobs that take a lot of cooperation between multiple different people in different roles. And those relationships are just way more functional with people I’ve met and have a real relationship with. And that comes from things that just don’t happen online.
Im honestly really curious how anyone could feel differently. The other comments just seem mad at being required to and stating the same stuff happens online, but it just doesn’t. I do wonder if maybe it has to do with being younger and entering the workplace more online or something. But I’ve worked with hundreds of remote employees and never heard a single one say the in person stuff to be useless. And I’ve heard many say exactly the opposite.
Yep, well put. I love working remotely, but would appreciate once/twice a year having an off-site to get to know some people in the company on a more human level, or so I know who has a dog, so they can send me pics. As you said, during work hours it’s hard to get away from the transactional nature of the conversation.
The other thing I’m always worried about, is when grads join the company. A lot are coming from an environment where they’ve been interacting in person on a daily basis, and now their only interaction is online.
I’ve worked service jobs for 20 years and have been doing an office job from home for just over a year and even if I’m not an introvert, getting to choose who I see in person and who I don’t feels wonderful, but I’m also very good at socializing online so I guess I don’t feel the need to see my colleagues in person for this reason…
Totally agree. I’m on restricted duties at the moment so meet all of my clients on teams. I hate it. The audio is terrible so one or both of us is always mishearing, my desk is in front of a window so I have to keep my curtains closed for them to see me. I don’t get to build the same rapport with them and their responses to my questions are more stilted because of it. A large part of my job is judging body language and reading non-verbal cues, which is next to impossible on teams.
And on monday, my computer decided to do a mandatory, 3 hour update, so I missed an appointment and couldn’t access the client’s number to apologise or explain. So I had to text a colleague to run over to the client’s office let them know I wasn’t going to make it
In your intro paragraph you say meetings. I think people who still think of meetings as being a worthwhile way to spend company time probably are demographically preoccupied with the alleged value of “in person”.
So what’s the benefit for me, letting the corporation employees and managers study my body language and micro facial expressions?
For me, it’s just a huge hassle getting to work, getting up earlier and paying for transport and lunch just to be there, for seemingly no reason that benefits myself at all.
So much time and energy wasted while also harming the environment.
I don’t plan to be at the same company more than a few years anyway.
The question and response you’re responding to aren’t about working in the office on a regular basis, just about the occasional in-person gathering. Your response comes across as complaints about working in the office daily.
I cannot imagine going back to an office job that isn’t WFH, but I agree strongly with the commenter here acknowledging the value of the occasional in-person socializing.
Even before 2020, I worked in a small remote office far from my thousands of coworkers at our corporate office. The relationships I was able to build spending 3-4 days at HQ every quarter or so greatly impacted my day-to-day work for the better. I have a specific example of someone I was having trouble working with for months, but after a single face-to-face interaction, for no reason I could name, we were suddenly great partners. She even left the company for a few years then came back a couple months ago and reached out to me, excited we’d get to work together again.
I don’t see value in working day-to-day in person. The company gets significantly more value from me by allowing me to work from home. But interstitial socializing of the occasional in-person event makes a significant difference in the relationships I have with my coworkers, which makes the team stronger and the work more enjoyable.
I think you’re missing the point a wee bit. No one (introverted or otherwise) is arguing against in-person socialising in general. They are arguing against forced in-person socialising with co-workers.
online meetings are extremely transactional
Exactly. You know what else is transactional? Jobs. The employer and employee exchange work for currency. Employees don’t owe their employer any meaningful relationships with their co-workers. I’m sure that means less efficient business. I also don’t give a flying fuck.
I felt like this a couple of years ago, then I went and changed both job and career. Suddenly I find myself actually enjoying what I do, as well as my colleagues.
A job is definitely transactional, but seeing as most of us spend 8h a day on them. I’d urge ya’ll to - if possible - try and find one where you can find some pride and value in what you do, other than the paycheck you receive.
It has improved all parts of my life in all honesty.
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Sure. But regardless, I used to work as a teacher. 15 weeks of vacation yearly, great pay (for Sweden at least). Worked about 32h every week.
I’m much happier today with much less vacation, longer hours and a bit worse pay (though it’ll get much better with time). Because I actually like my job. And I get to work on skills that I have use for in my free time as well.
It does not have to be all about getting paid as much and working as little as possible. Finding a good employer and a career you like is also an option.
Are you a manager by any chance?
No.
You’re correct in that it’s a higher quality of getting to know people in person.
However, I don’t want to get to know anyone at my work because I hate the place and I can’t create a honest relationship with my coworkers because of that, if I’d be honest I’d likely be reported or whatever.
I want to spend more time with people I do care about, not more time with people I don’t care at all about.
Why wouldn’t you be able to create relationships with your colleagues just because you hate your workplace? The worst places I’ve worked at, have had the absolute strongest relationships between the people working there. Because it’s basically been a necessity to survive the workday.
Your colleagues might hate it as much as you do. That can be something to find comfort in. And you’ll obviously never care about someone you don’t know. Perhaps you might actually start caring about a colleague or two, if you do get to know them.
Sliding off topic here, but I would seriously suggest you change jobs. Spending half of your waking time in an environment you hate is one way to die early. Life’s way too short for that!
I hate every job I’ve had so far and I don’t think that is going to change. Thanks for trying though.
have you had a job with a strong union or even outright as a co-operative? i figure the fundamental problem is that normal jobs are inherently exploitative and if you don’t have that bit it might become actually enjoyable
In the end, every job that is not a co-op is inherently exploitative, since if it doesn’t return profit to employ someone, employment will not happen.
But really the problem is that I have a very low resiliency, I’m mentally weak and can’t work as much as many other people or in the usual way with semi-fixed hours etc. So I can only get bad jobs, because the good jobs are very competitive and I lose to other applicants.
Further to that, I have found that in-person training sessions are much more effective than training over Teams/Zoom/Skype.
Not specifically because you are in the room with the instructor, but rather because you are in the room with the other students.
The opportunity to chat casually with the others during breaks is often where much of the learning and deepening of understanding happens. You can learn about their different approaches to the same problems you have. You can discover that you share confusion about something the instructor had briefly touched on , which can lead to a deeper discussion in class.(far too often during online training nobody asks what they assume is not a common question)
I find personally it’s easier and more relaxed to hang out in person. But that’s with friends, so unless you’re on close terms with everyone that does seem like a big hassle.
I wonder though where you meet up, and what you do. I can totally see myself wanting to do a meetup like that if it’s somewhere fun, like a big city, and there’s some events planned out.
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We’re social animals, socialization benefits us. WFH is better overall, but meeting up now and again has clear benefits.
Just commented here, and the anti-social folks seem to disagree, even though I’m mainly agreeing with them. Go figure.
How you felt, going bonkers, is roughly how many introverts feel being around people. So, the three years that introverts felt good in the history of… forever, many of us would like to keep that. I just ask that extroverts respect how shitty the workforce is especially for introverts and maybe try to get their social needs met in their personal life and not demand that work time also fit only their needs. At the expense of others.
As an introvert, as much as I feel weird aroind people, I feel even weirder video chatting with people I’ve never met in person. In that situation, I have no idea how to read people and the expectations are way harder to try to meet. This makes meetings even worse until I meet them.
While I agree that forced in person work daily is insane, the OP is complaining about meeting people in person once after many years, which feels equally as ridiculous. IMO even for widely dispersed teams, meeting a few times a year seems ideal.
Some people do not care about reading people or meeting expectations of people at work. They just want to do whatever is strictly necessary to get some money to live, and then get away from the whole thing.
They may not care, but reading people and meeting expectations of your colleagues is pretty much a bare minimum level of functioning for most professional positions.
I’m a massive introvert and would love to not have to rely on those social aspects of work, but they undeniably make me more effective at my job and make life easier in the long run. It’s no different than physical exercise or any of the million other things in life that might be a bit unpleasant but are ultimately good for you.
Well… no
As long as you don’t get fired, there’s no need to do any of these things, if you literally don’t care what happens at your job, then there’s no need to be effective or anything like that. You don’t need to be liked, you don’t need to care what your coworkers think, you just need to do enough work that it’s useful to employ you.
Fared
I love seeing my team in person, it’s happened twice since starting this job over a year ago, we get along well and always have a good time together. If they were in the same office as me I’d go in for team days if I could.
My life is lonely enough at home to want to isolate myself even more.
Over the past 4 years I’ve spent months at a time without seeing a single person. That’s not healthy and I hate being alone. The biggest joy in my work life was always getting to hang out with other people because generally I’m very lonely.
Now I go to the office maybe once a week because I don’t want to wake up more than 5min before stand up.
We do this sometimes but just people who live near the city lol! I can’t imagine doing a meet up where you had to fly somewhere and my company sure as hell would never pay for it!
Seeing everyone in person can be kind of fun because we can have a real conversation that’s not being monitored… We mostly talk shit the whole time lol
I’ve worked 2 jobs for 22 years, my side-gig being the 22-year one while my day-job moves about.
Working remotely has allowed me to change addresses, cities, regions, coasts, countries, and time zones many times in those 22 years. Had there been enough work in the side gig, I would have been happy to make it my primary job; but I say that as I know the day job has taught me techniques and tools I would maybe never have been able to bring to the side gig without that incentive.
Seeing people in the flesh is neat and keen and fetch, or whatever. But I’ll reserve that for my friends.
When it comes down to it, I have the power to require that a job pay me for every moment I do things on their behalf; and that includes commuting. I don’t want to do it, and they don’t want to pay me to do it, so I don’t.
Edit: I’m so sorry I haven’t responded in a while, I figured this post got buried because it never made it to my instance? Client? Idk, I’m still trying to figure it out. Than you all for the honesty, and I can understand some easily and other comments are just going to take me a minute to put myself in someone else’s shoes. You all have helped me a lot.
I’m in the same boat as you. It’s a waste of time for me, but others seem to need it.
It’s worth noting I have autism though. So social interactions don’t do much for me.
I realized in fairly early adulthood that I have traits that would have gotten me an Asperger’s diagnosis pre DSM changes so I relate.
Spent years making quarterly trips from outside Indy to upstate NY - somehow the boss thought it was good for morale or something.
What it was good for was reminding me how much I disliked that individual as a human being in general, and why I needed to GTFO there.
Airports? Days? I live 30 mins walking distance from my office and I’m still not bothered to go there.
I find it difficult to put my penis in people of I don’t see them in person and I want to put my penis in people.
