Looks like we can’t agree with the (unanimous) SCOTUS decision without invoking the downvote brigade. But for all of those wishing for Trump to be kept off the ballot, consider what will happen in four years when Texas comes up with some bullshit reason to keep the democrat frontrunner off the ballot.
I understand and completely agree that Trump started an insurrection and deserves to be kicked off the ballot. But we all know Texas, Kansas, or whatever other godforsaken backward red state will not play by the rules next time.
I’d rather do what right now instead of doing what’s wrong in hopes it doesn’t get weaponized. There isn’t a politician I care about enough that I’m willing let trump get away with insurrection in fear that red states might try to fuck with a dem nominee
If someone has done something that a state can even remotely argue inssurection, we should just dump that person and move on to the next. Maybe it’d force some new blood into the system
So tired of letting Republicans get away with shit out of fear of them abusing. They are already abusing everything and at some point we might need step up and stand on buisness
Im willing to bet they’re gonna try it anyway.
Fuck you. Kansas voters voted to keep abortion legal and we regularly have democrat governors. Try Oklahoma or something.
This assumes the Republicans will respect precedent and play by the rules. But when do they ever do that? Are they going to start playing fair as soon as their chosen dictator is installed? You don’t beat fascists this way. You have to keep them from seizing power in the first place.
It’s funny you think this ruling will stop fascist states from kicking non republicans off the ballots. Lets look at gerymandering. States submit illegal maps, play the waiting game, courts decide they’re illegal, states run illegal districts anyway because its too close to the election.
Good. Democracy means that it can be democratically dissolved. If you’re holding on to a piece of paper written by slave owners to save your democracy, then you’ve missed the point of democracy.
If a majority of voters want racist, sexist fascism, that’s what you’ll get. No amount of social media posts will change that. Ask the slaves, Indigenous Peoples, women, poor men, non-Christians, and children of the United States for the majority of its history.
Vote. And get others to do it too. Change people’s minds–and, no, posting on social media isn’t changing anyone’s mind. You have to actually go out and do the work of talking to people, understanding them, and then changing minds. Yelling at people, digitally or actually, isn’t doing anything. Sorry.
Now all the people that want to sit in their room doing nothing and act like it is doing something can downvote.
It’s the only form of “democracy” you know: cheap and easy. “I NO LIKE.”
Well that would be great if we had a democracy. No Republican has won the popular vote for something like 20 years, but we’ve had more than one Republican president since then.
Voting is super important, but we also need a better democracy because we know the majority don’t want a bigot in office. But we’re still getting one every couple years
The United States is HUGE. Do you feel like population centers should get to dictate the terms to everyone that doesn’t live in a populous state? If so, then, again: vote. If you don’t like the current election process then change it.
You Americans complain so much about your electoral processes, but you do nothing to change them.
You get bigots and violent offenders in office either way you cut it. Obama normalized the massive, largely remote kill operations in non-battlefield engagements. He authorized the death of several thousand people exclusively through remote kill actions. As he noted himself, “turns out I’m really good at killing people. Didn’t know that was going to be my strong suit.”
The popular vote for an overpowered executive isn’t the answer. And I think you know that. The answer is harder and requires more work. But it’s nice to think it’s just about voting once every four years to fix it, isn’t it?
Good luck.
Yeah GW Bush won in 88 and since then there’s only been one GOP population vote win when W won in the middle of the war in 04. Only one republican win in the past 35 years, and this coming election will be no different. There’s no way in hell the popular vote goes against Biden in November.
LMAO see it came in since months ago, finally they did it…
States rights only applies when it benefits the GQP
States rights!!! Sometimes.
Naturally
Correct. States simply don’t have this power. The decision was unanimous for a reason.
States rights*
*terms and conditions apply
*terms and conditions apply
Always has been. States have never had free reign to do anything they want. This is one of the things they cannot do.
States already do things like bar felons from voting and only put on 3rd party candidates that meet a certain signature threshold. Or add barriers to voting, like restricting when you can vote and ID laws.
Pretty much how it goes. Laws affect peons: oh well. Laws affect wealthy politicians: off to SCOTUS for them to overturn it!
For anyone wondering if the wording of the Constitution is unclear, this is the provision that constitutionally bars trump from office:
“No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.”
Here is Article 2 section 1, referring to the office of the President of the United States:
“The executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his office during the term of four years,…”
Trump engaged in insurrection, violating the oath of office he took. As such, he is constitutionally ineligible to run for office.
Supreme Cowards
What is the text of the last section of Amendment 14?
Why?
There is no “why”. I asked a question.
For no reason? Helpful of you.
My bad. I overestimated the ability of people on this website to infer subtext.
The last section of Amendment 14 explains why the Supreme Court was more or less correct in its interpretation before you edited your original comment.
I don’t like the guy, but I like even less the government deciding to take candidates off the ballot.
The opinion: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-719_19m2.pdf
We conclude that States may disqualify persons holding or attempting to hold state office. But States have no power under the Constitution to enforce Section 3 with respect to federal offices, especially the Presidency.
Think of it this way. It’s not that the government is trying take an eligible person off the ballot, but it’s clarifying the ineligibility criterion.
If the person committed a crime that exempts them from the ballot- I absolutely want them removed.
If conservatives want to try and prove innocent men and women need to be removed- I want them to try it in court.
Denying the ability to follow the law outright out of fear of what the other side will do is essentially negotiating with terrorists.
To be fair, the government has always set criteria for being on the ballot. For example, to be US president you have to be at least 35, a natural citizen, and have live in the states for at least 14 years.
Not being an insurrectionist is also part of that criteria. We’ve just never had a presidential candidate that has needed us to consider that part of the constitution.
So what happens if the states continue to keep him off the ballot? Does the federal government take over their elections, or do they refuse to recognize the electors?
The supreme clowns are giving an opinion and states are already starting to ignore their opinions. What happens if the states ignore this and say their state rights exceed here?
The bigger news isn’t that he’s back on the ballot, but the 5-4 split within the unanimous ruling.
They unanimously agreed that a state Court can’t ban someone from election to a federal office based on federal rules. There’s something to be said for that, which is why the liberal justices were all on board with it.
The 5-4 split with the separate opinions, however, was Thomas, Alito, Robert’s, Kavanaugh, and Gorsuch saying that federal courts also can’t ban someone from holding office for insurrection even if convicted of the crime in a federal court.
They’re setting up Trump to be eligible to be elected President even if he loses the insurrection trial prior to the election. They’re saying only Congress can ban him from office for insurrection.
The liberal justices wrote a heated rebuke of that in their concurring opinion, and Barrett sided with the liberals, but scolded the liberals for being too mean about it in her standalone concurring opinion.
What a mystery! Who knows what happens when States try and assert their “State’s Rights” to ignore the federal government, it’s never happened ever in American history, thank you for asking such a deep and intellectually thought-out question!
/s
Did anyone read the opinions?
Did any one read the Constitution?
Trump doesn’t qualify as an insurrectionist. Just as if he was 34
MidasTouch on YouTube does good analyses of such things
Why that image, he looks like Dr Evil dancing after getting away with it. It’s kind of cartoonishly hilarious.
Guess we really are going the route of states ignoring federal rulings and laws. This might get scary in the next few years.
Deadly is the word you mean
It is already scary now.
That isn’t at all what this is about. This is asserting the inability for individual states to make rulings on federal matters. This is a good thing. It’s not states’ place to be ruling on federal cases. Those rulings need to come from the federal level.
With every ruling the SC makes more and more states are setting themselves against the federal government. It’s becoming clear this union is not working at this point and it’s seeming inevitable that sometime in the near future we’re going to see more states than just Texas speaking of breaking away. Probably from more sides of the political spectrum and auth-right too
Commerce clause fucked us.
If that’s what you think, you don’t understand the situation.
Unless I’m misremembering, the scope is more limited. It’s specifically allocating the right to determine federal office eligibility to the federal government and not the state.
Any other rights without precedent currently remain with the states
And this folks, is why voting in November is IMPERATIVE. Don’t listen to the right-wing propaganda-spreading accounts here that post all day about how you should not vote because both parties are bad for America.
They KNOW you’re not voting for Trump and they KNOW you cannot be persuaded to- so the next best thing is for them to bullshit you into not voting at all- which in the end- will still help Trump win America.
If you think conservatives judges denying us our right to ban a “man” from running because of an attempted overthrowing of our government- denying us AFTER we went through due process to arrive at a legal decision to-
Just wait until the someone even worse than them has the authority to pass laws.
Do the right thing and vote.
It’s worth doing more than voting. If you’re able, sign up to volunteer and donate. Adopt a close congressional race too; fairly modest travel can get a lot of people to a swing district for the day.
Can you expand on what it means to “adopt” a congressional race?
It means picking a swing district near you, and then supporting the Democrat with volunteer time and (if you can afford it) money and recruiting others to join you.
VERY well said!
I just got run out of hexbear because I believe voting for Biden, while shitty, is a form of harm reduction. I got called a genocide supporter and a fascist followed by hours of threats and wishes of harm, including my favorite. An emoji of a location where Nazis were executed by partisans in Yugoslavia.
I’m new to lemmy so just kinda assumed it was a leftist space. I didn’t realize that it’s just red tented Nazis with no actual love for their fellow human beings. Something I consider necessary to being a socialist in any form. That sucked.
Yep. I have them and .ml and lemmygrad blocked from my feed. It’s toxic there.
“Block hexbear” is to browsing Lemmy as “use an ad blocker” is to browsing the internet.
Pretty much. Yeah. That place is gross, it’s like the dark-web of willful ignorance.
This. Lemmy requires a blocklist. But fortunately it’s easy to make.
Same.
I don’t really understand hexbear. They are leftists that are so left they are Nazis?
I get it, I don’t like voting for Biden, but we live in a two party system where we have to vote for the least evil one.
And despite myself, Biden has passed some of the most progressive legislation ever (at least my lefty podcasts tell me that) So while he was glacially, immorally, slow to call for a ceasefire in Gaza, he has done it and his policies are inarguably more moral than Trumps were and likely will be, should trump win.
They’re fascists LARPing as leftists.
Yeah they’re like how Mao was a communist.
Those who make it to the top after bloody revolution are far more likely to believe in nothing except their own authority and entitlement.
Many of the revolutionaries replaced even more brutal governments but realistically its only ever been where people were fully denied rights that revolutions were successful. Example: its well understood that the british empire ended slavery after a series of slave revolts. Cubans also had less rights than vacationing american mobsters under batista.
Often more developed countries get better mechanisms to resolve disputes: elections, courts, regulations, insurance, strikes, etc.
Its best to use those before pursuing violence.
Oh I agree, I abhor violence and it is my sincere wish that no human anywhere perished in such ways. But I am not a naive enough fool to believe that meaningful change is always bloodless.
Personally I think it will be the coming food riots that really kick things into high gear. And its going to happen sooner than people realize.
They are leftists that are so left they are Nazis?
Tankies are not really leftists. They are conservatives who call themselves leftists. They are engaging in modern propaganda.
One of the standard tactics of fascists is to sew chaos and confusion among any who may resist. A tankie’s primary goal is to create confusion and demotivate progressives.
Not everyone falls for it, but some tankies can be pretty convincing that they really believe their nonsense. Do not be fooled. Tankies are absolutely lying. They are pro-level trolls with a deadly serious goal.
Tankies are not really leftists. They are conservatives who call themselves leftists. They are engaging in modern propaganda.
I wish more people realized this. They are bad faith actors who exist solely to disrupt and recruit. What I find particularly reprehensible about the Hexbear playbook is they appeal to the most disenfranchised part of the LGBTQ+ community and take advantage of their rage by giving them a target…not coincidentally, the same way the public face of the right wing panders to rural white men. Hexbear is queer-friendly and does offer a safe space, but they don’t actually discuss, much fight for the rights of the queer community in any way. They give them anti-west talking points, wind them up, and send them out into the world, but they don’t actually give a shit about their recruits’ queer existence; they’re just a tool to be used. It just sucks to see, for a number of reasons.
Wow. I was completely unaware of Hexbear’s specific flavor of manipulation. Thank you for spelling that out. That is both heart-breaking and frightening.
It also explains some of the bizarre conversations I’ve had with certain tankies. I’m usually not kind to them, but I think I can be both more sensitive and more persuasive with certain LGBTQ+ tankies now that I know some of them may actually be victims of manipulation. So, again, thank you.
They’re Russian trolls, and their minions.
Horseshoe theory. The extremes ends on both sides aren’t identical, but they sure do rhyme
Biden has passed some of the most progressive legislation ever
No, but he has passed some horribly racist bills back when he was involved in passing bills
And yet he was overwhelmingly the favorite pick for Black voters in the 2020 primary.
People change. Context matters – some of those bills were even supported by black community leaders. It obviously didn’t turn out well.
Plus, it matters to some people that he was happily VP under Obama. I personally don’t get it, but to some people being #2 to a black person at #1 meant something.
Maybe it’s kind of like how if you go far enough west you end up on the East.
They’re tankies, some of the most bizarre idiots around.
Unfortunately, Lemmy.ml and a few other still-federated instances are currently infected with tankie mods. Some are a bit covert about it, banning people for clever little twists like “minimizing genocide” if the user calls any current military action a genocide.
Conservatism, including fake progressives like tankies, are a cancer that are long overdue for a cure.
Federation only works if everyone participates in good faith, and has approximately similar codes of conduct.
Blocking instances is not enough.
I always see reports of this behavior from hexbear, but I’ve never been subjected to it, even when disagreeing with the user base there. Though,I am wondering if they just blocked me because I haven’t seen any of their posts in a while, now that I think about it.
I made a snarky comment on a post from a Hexbear Truth-Teller once. The OP replied to me after a few days and thought it was important that I knew they couldn’t see my post from the Hexbear server.
Uh sorry guy, not my concern really since it seems your server is the one blocking me.
easily 50% of the voter base is against the incumbent
This is their classic pincer maneuver employed by the establishment - and it works really well: the left wing candidate is both too left and not left enough.
You see it in every election.
It works so well because they own mainstream media so they can run all narratives at the same time as opinion pieces to hamstrung the left. That’s how the ratchet works also.
Well said and thanks for the explanation.
It also works because, simply put, those of us not on the Right have a tendency to disagree with one another on what to support. Now I’m not saying this doesn’t happen in general. Only that we’ll do it even to the point of detriment as we recognize situations and cases we feel need to be supported, instead of just what needs to be attacked, and those can vary widely.
My biggest and most consistent concern every election is whether we can come together in consensus long enough to make a difference. My second concern is whether we can hold that energy long enough to continue pushing for positive change.
I mean you are right, but hopefully we learnt our lesson when we got the current supreme court because Hillary was not pure like Sanders.
So long as we keep in mind that their goal is to split the working class in manageable little pieces we can put our differences aside to come together to at least stop the slide and hopefully take a few steps in the right direction.
That’s why it bears repeating that if you don’t vote for Biden in the General Election, YOU ARE HELPING TRUMP. No “genocide Joe” arguments matter at that point no matter how much you twist your logic, no matter how you WISH things worked with the US general election. These are simple FACTS.
What happened to State’s Rights? Oh, they only matter when they didn’t benefit you. Got it.
What happened to upholding the constitution? He is literally barred from office for his crimes, and his legal defence was that he did those crimes but it shouldn’t disbar him (even though it very clearly does).
cue Strum Thurmond spinning in his own grave
It’s so wild that the ‘but the people have democratic rights to choose among candidates’ crowd invoke that argument to make the candidate that’s promised to end democracy and rights one of the options they can vote for
You know, because democracy
Also it occurs to me that there are other factors that disqualify candidates from being president- the bit about being 35 or older means AOC can’t be president right now and the bit about being a natural-born citizen disqualifies Schwarzenegger and isn’t it interesting that the court hasn’t taken up the issue on how that denies voters their democratic rights? I mean, when you want to understand how to apply the constitution as it pertains to who may not serve in office, don’t you want to consider all the disqualifiers and their mechanisms?
If you’re under 35 or foreign-born, it doesn’t take an act of congress to bar you from office, those things are the law and already in the constitution with plain wording. A plain reading of sec 3 of the 14th amendment basically reads as if the authors of the amendment intended it to take an act of congress (with 2/3rds majorities, in both houses) to allow an insurrectionist that previously took an oath of office to serve again, but the court magically inverted that by asserting the only congress could invoke section 3
Nope, this is the court bending over backwards to deliver a political outcome
And also, he never won on the people’s democratic right to choose among candidates. Hillary did. He won because the president is chosen by the states, not the people. Don’t like it? Abolish the electoral college.
Abolish electoral college is not the answer to these issues. Unless you have a new idea in mind. Electoral college is better than using popular vote. It helps prevent fraud from any one particular state.
Except this assinine system only exists in 'murica, which also happens to be the country where democracy doesn’t work.
How so? And does that outweigh the negatives and weaknesses we’ve seen in the electoral college system over the past 2 election cycles?
I was mostly curious those that want to abolish it what their alternative solution is.
Under popular vote, DeSantis is still running and maybe now he gets 63 billion votes from Florida alone. The impact of this fraud (there are not 63 billion ppl voting in Florida) is bigger with no electoral college.
Other countries don’t have EC bc other counties don’t have our state and government structure.
Yall do you. I’m not very political anyway.
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How exactly does it prevent fraud?
What I don’t understand about the ruling is that congress has already exercised their power. Donald Trump was impeached by congress in 2021 for inciting an insurrection. The states are only enforcing the law based on the ruling a of the House of Representatives and a majority of the Senate.
Removal from office takes a supermajority in the Senate, so maybe disqualification via the 14th does as well. That would presumably depend on Senate rules that currently don’t cover it.
A simple majority ought to be sufficient, but it also ought to be sufficient for just about everything, but it’s not.
14th didn’t say that
14th didn’t say it’s up to Congress either. The Supreme Court said that, and now it’s up to Congress to decide what that looks like. The constitution lets the legislative bodies setup their own rules for how a lot of things function.
If the Supes said it without merit then it can be ignored. Ban him from the ballot anyway.
I’m not sure I even disagree with the idea that it needs to be done at the Federal level. If individual states can do it, then Republicans will start declaring that everything they don’t like is an insurrection (as their rhetoric already does on many issues) and remove Democrats from ballots.
Whether that means it has to be the legislature and what that looks like are different questions.
So we’re just gonna allow a corrupt party to simply decide what words mean on their own?
Hold up, George Orwell on line three…
This was actually a 9-0 decision. Being a cynic is definitely justified by the state of our government, but you should have some ideas what your being cynical about.
