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I always roll my eyes whenever I see a “you can’t do that because you’re a woman” character in a show, and then I’m always reminded that these people actually exist
Not only that they exist but also that they’re disturbingly common and disproportionately in positions of power.
these people actually exist
The way it’s been explained to me is that so much of the negative interactions in life come from a tiny, tiny number of offenders who manage to be shitty to dozens and dozens of people. So anyone who has to interact with many different people will inevitably encounter that shitty interaction, while most of us normies would never actually behave in that way.
Of the literally thousands of times I’ve interacted with a server or cashier, I’ve never yelled at one. But talk to any server or cashier, and they’ll all have stories of the customer who yelled at them. In other words, it can be simultaneously true that:
- Almost all servers and cashiers get yelled at by customers.
- Very, very, few customers actually yell at servers or cashiers.
In other words, our lived experiences are very different, depending on which side of that interaction we might possibly be on.
When I talk to women in male dominated fields, basically every single one of them has shitty stories about sexist mistreatment. It’s basically inevitable, because they are a woman who interacts with literally hundreds or thousands in their field. And even if I interact with hundreds or thousands of women in that same field, just because I don’t mistreat any of them doesn’t mean that my experienced sample is representative.
I wouldn’t say very few. I’d say a solid 10% of people are routinely rude, impatient or entitled in a retail or restaurant setting. Even higher in some places.
Maybe in some places. But when I go out to a restaurant, I’m often surrounded by a few dozen other diners, and no one is acting up or shouting at waiting staff. I have seen customers be obviously rude to staff but it’s very rare compared to the number of “normal” interactions. Sure not everyone is friendly and totally polite, but entitled, shouting or just being an ass is an absolute exception, like less than 0.1%. I also worked as a waiter in a couple of different restaurants over a two year period, and don’t remember any incidents either to me or my colleagues.
When I read comments like this it makes me wonder if I’ve been lucky enough to live and work in decent places, and the USA is just an nightmare hellscape, or if the reality there is much more normal and we just hear an unrepresentative sample of it.
If you are visiting a restaurant you really only get a sense of what’s happening at your table. Same when you reach a cashier - you might overhear what happens straight ahead, but not much more than that. People can be very rude without being very loud - if you work in customer service you have to deal with these people all the time, and you can’t escalate things either. It’s not something other customers are aware of.
Totally agree that eating at a restaurant doesn’t mean you see all the subtle ways people are douches. But the comment above was about people shouting, so I assumed that the “10% of people are rude” was meaning obviously and noticeably rude. If it’s just 10% of people are impatient / distracted / not very friendly / kinda annoying. Then sure, but I don’t think anyone would be surprised with such a mild claim.
And as I said, I was a waiter in a busy restaurant for over two years. And the staff spent a lot of time complaining about the job to each other (as you do) and while many customers were annoying, kept changing their orders, or were a bit drunk and laughing loudly the whole time, blah blah, I don’t remember anyone ever complaining about a customer being as rude as I regularly read / see on the Internet. I never encounter a “Karen”.
I’ve always assumed it is just that Internet focusses on the tiny number of extreme behaviours and makes it sound more normal. But then I hear people say things like 10% of people are awful to staff and it makes me think that maybe there’s a real cultural difference.
Sorry, somehow totally skipped over the part of your comment where you said you worked as a waiter! I didn’t intend to explain your own job to you at all haha. There are definitely demographic differences I’ve noticed, and specific workplaces… I’ve worked a relatively small number of customer service jobs. Cafe was broadly as the previous commenter described, maybe 5-10% of people were… not great. Although, no shouting or anything when I worked there. Just rude, entitled people. Pubs are not so bad, in my limited experience, drunk people are annoying but in a different way. The worst was a job where I had to take customer calls (not quite a call centre)… There I had to deal with the closest thing to a “Karen”.
Oh god, yes. I worked in a call centre for six months and it was dreadful. The combination of dealing with sometimes frustrating situations + the anonymity of a voice only call… People were regularly dreadful. Definitely at least 10% very rude people.
I also took it to be a sign of the ‘banality of evil’, that people having a nice time with their friends, eating some nice food, are generally pleasant. But put them in the privacy of their own home, speaking to a faceless stranger, and suddenly they can be awful. But I tried not to judge them to harshly. The design of call centres, with long hold times and staff with no real power to do anything helpful, is pretty much guaranteed to frustrate the most saintly of people.
the USA is just an nightmare hellscape
I think you’re right. People want to believe that humans are good but in reality a huge number are deeply broken.
Fixed an autocorrect in edit.
It really is a matter of perspective.
You’re saying that 10% of the population being awful means that a “huge number” are deeply broken.
So then 90% are being good! Mind, it doesn’t take too many assholes to wreck things for everyone, but it is nice that the majority of folks really are trying to do their best. A sizeable majority, even!
10% of 8 billion is still many hundreds of millions. That’s a huge number. More: it’s a number we have to stop pretending is not a big deal and get to work to fix ourselves as a species.
Oh, no denying that at all. It is a problem, especially in aggregate.
When looking at the big picture, those rotten apples really do spoil the bunch and it can be depressing.
But also people can take that big picture awareness of problems and hate on people a little universally. Saying things like humanity is awful and a plague on the earth and maybe shouldn’t exist. There’s absolutely reason to see things that way.
But we are also a species that dolphins can approach for help when they’re injured. Or that will fight tooth and nail to help a wild creature. Or who will sacrifice their own well-being, not just for friends and family, but for strangers. Who will take other creatures, like dogs, into our homes and hearts and love them with all we have.
We can suck as a species, absolutely. We need to fix it. But it’s important to remember the joys of humanity, and not just the failures. Both are extreme, for we are a rather extreme species!
I seen first hand examples of something happening like women being interrupted by men and they go on about how everything is sexist and they were mistreated. But in that exact same meeting multiple guys talked over multiple other guys. It just happens, not everything is sexist but a lot of people claim sexism when it isn’t.
I think you’re right that only a tiny minority are directly responsible for the negative interactions, but as someone within academic science, there’s also a much larger chunk of people who don’t challenge the assholes or the systemic fuckery when they see it.
Minorities who face oppression are much more likely to be ignored if they report inappropriate or offensive behaviour; I directly know people who have been made to feel like they are the problem for highlighting a problem. This is especially common if it’s an established and respected academic who makes the iffy comments, because there’s a tendency to them like a senile grandparent at Christmas. If they’re a professor emeritus, there’s a sense of them not really being relevant anymore, even if they’re still respected, but it can feel tremendously isolating to see no-one step in to challenge the comments, either at an individual or institutional level.
It’s understandable to not want to rock the boat, but abstaining is easier for some than others.
I agree.
I point out that pretty much everyone in that group experiences it, so even those who aren’t in that disadvantaged group should show some empathy towards the experiences of others, that we may never directly encounter ourselves. Part of that empathy, of course, is to provide support and structures for reducing the likelihood that these things happen, and mitigating them when they do happen.
Sometimes it’s true, like a penismodel
Women can have penises.
Some would even argue that all of the best penises are on women.
Thx :3
Lol the dudebros getting mad about only having a boring male penis instead of a cute female one and downvoting you.
They can have one, if they have penises that’s scary
someone missed your joke about one person having multiple penises. or maybe they’re really progressive and are looking out for their multipenile friends.
Yeah, I guess I’m not progressive enough
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That et al is the best scientist, they’re in all the papers.
Is McCarty, not et al. (unless bipolar?)
He really said “why don’t you ask kitchen?” and she responded with “I am kitchen.”
That man’s name? Albert Einstein
I was hoping for Davy Crockett, oh well…
He kil’t him a bar when he was only three.
And then everyone applauded..
But seriously if I witnessed this, I might actually applaud because that is a pretty badass bit of trivia to get to whip out.
I think I would rather this happen to me than just about anything professionally, the withdrawal from that high might actually kill me
et. al
I wouldn’t mess with her, she contains multitudes!
Fucking hive minds
We are Borg et al. Resistance is futile.
I am 7 of etc etc
Is tenforward leaking again?
That guy publishes a LOT.
Not as confrontational, but had a similar experience with a collaborator. Due to the PIs’ old habits, our collaboration meetings were telecons (telephone landlines, rather than zoom or other video conferencing). So at a conference, I see a poster from a member of the collaboration, having never seen the faces of many members, and go over to introduce myself. This other grad student was in poster presenter mode, so as I approach he immediately asks “So you are interested in [collaboration project], how much do you know about [project]” and I point to my name on the author’s list and say “well, I am that guy”.
I’ve been on both sides of that kind of interaction, though not in academia. I met my boss of six months for the first time like two weeks ago, tbh I’m not sure if I would recognize him (or anyone else on my “team” for that matter) if I saw him again right now.
As a white dude, I would be horribly embarrassed to do something like that. I hope the guy in the story learned a lesson from it.
Any kind of interruption seems rude AF, and that’s without even considering the sexism and insinuation that she’s incompetent.
What’s the norm for the audience in situations like this? Raising your hand? Holding any questions/comments until the end?
Even then you don’t go “you don’t understand x!”. You make an actual point about something in the presentation, usually with enough self-doubt to state it as a question.
If the whole presentation is trash in your opinion, just leave.
Also, if someone just says “you’re wrong about X” that’s way easier to deal with than “considering this other paper says these things, can you explain your motivation for X?”.
Those questions are the worst.
I find that to be the other way around. I would much rather have people ask the second kind of question, whereas the first kind will give me nothing to work with. In the worst case you can answer that you havent read thtose papers and you will after the presentation. At best they can actually teach you something you haven’t considered yet. But often you can respond with your motivation which you generally thought about for much longer than they did.
that is a very scientific environment. of you cant deal well with the second question youre at the wrong place
I mean, it’s much easier to dismiss a shitty question than a good one.
Most researchers I know welcome difficult questions. Like that’s the whole game. Finding the difficult questions about your work and answering them.
A lot of the time, it sucks of you only get bad questions or no questions. It usually means your work was uninteresting or so poorly presented no one grasped enough to even ask about something relevant.
If a subject is a scientific passion of yours, you don’t dismiss good questions, you welcome them.
You start by asking questions. If you’re wrong you’ll find out, if you’re right you’ll expose something.
Depends on the size of the meeting and the length of the meeting.
For an hour-long lecture/seminar with less than 20 people, probably raising your question directly is fine.
For a 25 mins talk at a conference with 200 people, you will probably need to save your question to the end.
But it is always safer to ask beforehand.
Some people develop extreme skills while never learning how to interact with others.
What does skin color and gender have to do with this?
hegemony
Wow, so she managed to clone herself and use the clones to write a paper?
Multiple clones. Otherwise the paper would be McCarty & McCarty.
The @lemmy.liberals in the comments here being flabbergasted that straight white men in positions of power are privileged and embarrassing is very funny
Keep it up dorks
Edit:
To the salty folks out there mad about people not stooping down and being your personal elementary school teacher to teach you basic lessons about the world we live in, and our friends from lemmy.world who are assuredly reading through posts like this one from defederated instances (hi!)
A word about what it is to be civil in conversation and Why Those Tankies Are So Mean (not a tankie but w/e):
I will definitely admit that I was very annoyed and could have been nicer about a lot what I went about saying throughout my posts in this thread. Here’s the thing, ‘being nicer about it’ is a personal decision not a moral necessity, and not even necessarily beneficial at all. The “it” we’re being “nicer” about is often something horrifying, like when people got upset at Aaron Bushnell for his self immolation, people who were more upset about THAT than they are about what’s happening to innocent bystanders in Palestine. These are not positions that should be met with civility. No one is required to put up with someone’s bullshit just for the purpose of helping them learn and grow. Its good to do in the few times when that is possible…
but here?
on the internet? On a not-reddit forum website in a science memes community? Its 1/10000 chance where that’s possible.
We all know why you would feel attacked by seeing the mention of his white maleness and the implication that had anything to do with it. No unbiased person would see that and think “this is prejudice based on skin color!” or pretend they can see no connection between the guy in the tweet’s old male whiteness and THE TWEET, A perfect encapsulation of the absurdity our nightmare culture which enshrines and systematically enforces the power of ignorant old white men. Its not a statement that all white people are bad, its not a statement that all old people are bad, its not a statement that all men are bad.
It’s a recognition of the systemic rot inflicted on the scientific community by our current culture shaped by patriarchy, capitalism, and imperialism.
Add to that how sick I and many of us are of the constant bullshit, the harmful attitudes beliefs and inevitable whining and whinging when the least criticism lands near the fancy of the loser we run across on some post. We’re leftists, but also most of us are either trans or queer or poc or neurodivergent etc etc or any combination thereof. We have been around for years just on lemmy, and years before. And over those years, have grown to recognize civility bullshit for what it always was. And recognize what it means when we see stuff like this post, where people are upset about criticism of privileged behavior that demonstrates an injustice inherent to our current system. So we see that bullshit, and we come down on it. To see that an not react harshly against it is no different than contributing to it yourself, to let it fester and grow, to let something horrible and unjust become simply ‘normal’.
To hear incorrect views without rebutting them and instead to take them calmly as if nothing had happened is unacceptable.
That’s why many people in this thread reacted negatively to the comments we did. Clear enough?
This is why I usually just say shut up, loser. It’s way fucking easier, and taking the effort like this is never worth it, not on here, not with the .world et all crowd.
So shut up, losers.
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Why is ‘race’ relevant here? What the fuck is wrong with Americans and how did they become so astonishingly self flagellating.
That said… this sounds like one of those fantasy scenarios where “then everyone clapped”.
Just on the insecure posture of this tweet, I’m prepared to bet cold hard cash that he asked her for clarity or something with a informational challenge “but does x not come from y?” Or whatever and she manufactured his reasoning and the rest to feel good. She doesn’t seem to know what et al means either.
While I perfectly agree with your position on that the “privilege” talk has become a weapon in and of itself, and that a lot of bullshit stories come out of it, I’d love it if you could change the tone of conversation.
Americans are different, and they may have cultural reasons to behaving this way. That’s not to say they’re right - but seeding anger this way is not gonna magically change their minds.
This is a reasonable request
I’m glad we have a common ground here
Hope it didn’t turn out mean on my part - I just want to keep this place nice :)
They’re mentioning the race and gender basically to say “a privileged person”. Having privileges obviously influences your character. And race+gender correlate with privileges.
So, while there’s no direct causation, and us white males who aren’t chumps don’t need to be offended, it’s often good enough of an explanation why a particular white male might be a chump.
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what does this mean?
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Why is ‘race’ relevant here?
Because it’s extremely relevant in American culture. Every culture really, we’re just somewhat ahead on not lying to ourselves about it.
What the fuck is wrong with Americans and how did they become so astonishingly self flagellating.
Nothing and we’re not, you’re an irate ignoramus with a chip on your shoulder having an imaginary dick measuring contest because you’re super duper sensitive about race.
Just on the insecure posture of this tweet, I’m prepared to bet cold hard cash that he asked her for clarity or something with a informational challenge “but does x not come from y?” Or whatever and she manufactured his reasoning and the rest to feel good. She doesn’t seem to know what et al means either.
He was literally telling her to go read her own work. The “et al” part is very fucking clearly taking the piss, do they not have humor over there in Stuckupistan? Or are your panties always in too much of a twist about basic ass descriptors to have any kind of humor about literally anything?
E: guy’s post history is chock full of dogshit-tier takes with a thin veneer of leftism and a big heap of good ol’ fashioned xenophobia.
“Because of the sheer scale of the issue and long history of institutionalized racism with lingering consequences, we, Americans, developed more vigilance on the issue, and I think this experience and this point of view should be considered across the globe. I do not appreciate the way you speak of it, and I’d rather have you respect, even if not immediately understand, this position.”
-Your comment, with personal attacks taken out.
I ask you to consider the way users express themselves around Lemmy, and keep this place nice and tidy. Personal attacks and flaming are better left to Reddit. What makes the Lemmyverse so amazing is the cooperation of kind strangers, and in the spirit of it, it would be amazing for you not to provoke flaming and aggression.
I’m no admin and no mod, but a kind patriot of the Lemmy space, and I sincerely hope you could listen up to this and be kinder next time, even to the people who aren’t perfectly keeping to the good conduct themselves.
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This is top some top tier mansplaining here. I detect no sense of irony. Chef’s kiss.
I agree that the usage of “white” is irrelevant here. That being said, are you in academics? It is not an unusual situation for people to not be aware of the “face behind the maths” so to speak. Granted, this is not entirely unique to women in science but it is exhaustingly common for women to be questioned more than their peers.
I think questioning this is fine as many people lie but I wouldn’t take this to mean this type of situation didn’t happen/couldn’t happen.
I recognise that, I think it’s important to make very clear distinctions with no sweeping statements when prescribing value to demographic groups.
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