FAQ
Q: why not organize and stop treating the bus as a legitimate entity? why aren’t you working to stop the bus?
A: do both. cut the fuel line. break windows. put oatmeal in the gas tank. but maybe your efforts don’t succeed this election cycle. and if so don’t fucking throw away your vote if it can help your neighbors fucking survive. “harm reduction” is not a political strategy for action. it is a last minute, end of the line decision to save lives, after all other resources have been exhausted.
I will not be voting for anyone who supports a genocide. That will not change. Now there are two ways to change the outcome.
- If you are a genocide supporter who wants to be elected, you could stop supporting genocide, and be vocal about it.
- If you are someone who wants me to vote for your candidate, you could demand that they stop supporting genocide. Or demand that whatever party you like stops nominating people who support genocide.
I will not budge. Will you?
i admire your dedication and resolve. for the sake of everyone involved i hope your narrative plays out. :)
for me personally i find such a scenario unlikely and so choose to operate within the bounds of a model i find to be closer to reality to reduce the harm brought to my neighbors.
Two candidates that support genocide, but one is a christofascist. No matter who you vote for, genocide support wins. But you think it’s better to give the christofascist better odds than to inconvenience yourself with a vote you don’t 100% agree with, and possibly abstain from your chance to ever vote again. Not voting won’t fix the issue, since there’s no threshold on voter turnout for the election to count. The struggle against genocide must be fought in other ways. So unfortunately, this fall you’re getting genocide, so please make sure you don’t get fascism too.
I’d rather just not vote for genocide.
Aside from the obvious, that will just be continuing to tell the two parties that nominating genocide supporters is good. You can continue telling your favorite party that you are okay with genocide, but I will not, thank you very much. This is why you are stuck between two genocide supporters. When your chosen party leaves you with a genocide supporter as your only choice, you tell them that’s good.
And you are not going to fight the genocide in any other way, so don’t pretend. Your chosen party is one of the two that ratified bills to make any attempts at boycotts or sanctions illegal.
Also, both candidates are fascists. Look at what’s happening on our Southern border, look at just our recent history in the Middle East, and look at the fascist government committing genocide that we are supporting.
You don’t fight fascism in the ballot box. Every single example in history teaches you that.
Hypothetically speaking, if candidates A and B both support genocide but candidate B wants to take away your right to vote, I think we should vote for candidate A.
The parties don’t really care if you don’t vote, so not voting doesn’t apply pressure to them to change.
Direct action and or forcing the hands of politicians so more people have an incentive to voteTrying to get people to support genocide and half assed half measures (that keep the door open for making things worse than they were before, which is very in line with the ruling class’ interests), and when they don’t, imply they support fascism 😌
What do you mean, “support”?
First instance of the word: “supporting genocide” as in voting for someone who will facilitate said genocide via funding.
Second instance of the word: “supporting fascism” by refraining to vote for someone who will facilitate genocide but will stop the fascism creep ongoing in the USA using (in my not so humble opinion) crappy legislation which can be easily reverted.
To defend myself more directly, one wouldn’t ask a Palestinian American to vote for Biden, that is, unless you lack basic decency, ehich means the tactic that the person above me uses wouldn’t be effective for anyone seeing themselves as a victim or even victim-adjacent to the ongoing genocide.
And I’m saying that working outside of the system or trying to apply political pressure is a tactic that is abandoned by liberals by default, which makes their tactic ineffective against the creep of fascism.
Excuse my long ass comment, wanted to drop the sarcasm for a sec and say what i really mean.
I just think your humble opinion of the legislation being easily reversible is doing a lot of work here.
Are you really that sure that there will be no long term consequences if the guy comes into office who has explicitly stated his intention to become a “dictator for ‘a day’”, is really intent on stacking courts, fucking with elections, calling immigrants “vermin”, and so on?
Because if you’re wrong, there might be a civil war. And MAGA nut jobs statistically have more guns than us leftists.
You are assuming that the only options that exist are voting for either guy or not voting. Which is the main thing I’m trying to bring attention to as you are not the first person to comment in such a manner.
Also, Biden isn’t really doing much to reverse what Trump did, including stuff that affect immigrants.
If your main means to get more voters is shaming them instead of shaming your politicians then this lesser-of-two-evils game will only get worse, it had gone worse several times already.
I’m aware that more than two parties technically exist in your country. I’m also not under the illusion that voting for one of them in the general election has an effect that’s distinguishable from not voting.
I mean, except for the individual third party voter, who has to leave the house and stand in a queue when voting third party.
It’s great to have a political system that allows for diverse political parties. Sadly the US in not a country where such a system exists.
Under normal circumstances, you won’t be able to ever reach critical mass with a third party, and they won’t give up power.
It’s not implying they support fascism, it’s implying they’re letting fascism happen faster, because they are.
See other comment
Agree we should work outside the system, disagree that we should not use our vote strategically.
Using it strategically does not equate to voting unconditionally
See you at the bottom of the cliff then.
Don’t dishearten they’re almost certainly not actually an American voter.
You’re effectively voting for “eh whatever”
Between genocider and genocider-but-worse, I’m not gonna stand by and let genocider-but-worse win power.
voting is not harm reduction
ITT: people calling for revolution who will never do a damn thing about it. It’s easy to pretend violence is the answer when you’ll never participate, let alone start something.
And then they think they’ll be part of the vanguard when the power vacuum opens up, and will give way to a glorious socialist utopia. Guess what, turbo, you’ll be up against that wall too, and it’s just going to be roving gangs of authoritarians.
Even if you assume those LARPers are willing to sacrifice themselves in bloody revolution for the good of the common folk…
Who do you think suffers most when civil war disrupts supply chains, essential services, and the legal system?
It’s the dang common folk they’re supposedly dying to protect!
Way too many of these chucklefucks just want to LARP as pure and radical revolutionaries. My wife and I are disabled and live on a fixed income of her disability payments and the SNAP program. If this “revolution” they want so bad does come, then we’re among the most likely to just fucking starve in the disruption. I’m also one of the people the GOP declared they want to “Eradicate from Public Life” with Project 2025.
Now, I’m not much of a Genocide Enjoyer. I think it’s one of the worst things you can do in fact. But I also don’t take too kindly to being effectively told that I specifically should just die because these wannabe revolutionaries refuse to entertain a world where we both vote for Biden to keep Trump from destroying democracy more than the GOP already has (harm reduction), AND engage in direct action to push Biden away from blindly supporting Israel.
Refusing to vote for a genocide supporter IS a form of direct activism.
Ah yes. Direct action. Famously done by checks notes Not doing something. So brave.
Not doing something would be to continue to vote for a president who is funding a genocide.
Nah, I’m good. I’ll continue to vote for Biden because he’s infinitely more likely to be swayed to stop the genocide than Trump who if I’m not mistaken has literally expressed a desire to accelerate the genocide on top of all the other heinous shit in Project 2025.
You can hate me all you want for not lining my family up to starve to death in “muh glorious revolution” or to lose our means of continuing to live when Trump tries to gut the Social Security that my family lives off of, or the SNAP benefits that feed us, or however they decide they want to eradicate my disabled trans ass from public life. Call me selfish for wanting myself and my family to continue living in addition to doing what I can to stop the genocide. I really don’t care. LARP away my dude.
How does voting for someone who is funding a genocide going to sway that person to stop funding it? It’s just illogical. There are plenty of Democrats who are active Zionists and support the war, probably a fair number are wealthy donors. The only way to sway the policy of the Democratic party is to threaten to their power.
I don’t think you’re selfish, and I don’t hate you lol, I just think you’re not seeing the enormous potential of forming a leftist voting coalition. Imagine how amazing it would be if the Democratic Party was trying to cater to the votes of leftists, and not to “moderates” who think that an openly white nationalist candidate is a viable potential option.
That would be fantastic, I’d love it if the Democrats would stop doing what they’ve been doing the last 30+ years of punching left and chasing the “Moderates” rightward. But let’s think about this logically for a minute. What are the possible outcomes of what you’re proposing?
- Coalition Victory. We install an actual leftist in the White House. Fantastic. No more Genocide. We have a little socialism as a treat maybe? No notes. I love it. But that means we have right now about 7 months to produce or align behind a 3rd party candidate, one who likely won’t be allowed on the ballot in several states, Then that candidate has to get enough votes to beat BOTH Biden and Trump meaning they basically have to pull at least like 18% of the vote from both sides in enough states to win the Electoral College.
- Trump Victory. Considerably less fantastic. Democrats blame the Leftists for Biden’s loss as usual. Okay, we threatened their power and now maybe we can convince them that they need us to win in 2028 rather than them moving even further right as they have since Clinton. But meanwhile we still haven’t stopped the Genocide, Donnie’s probably gonna attempt to speedrun it in fact, we’ve got Project 2025 to worry about. I don’t know about you, but I don’t think Gaza’s going to last until 2028.
- Biden Victory. Not as bad as Trump winning. Genocide is still happening in Gaza, unlike Trump he at least might be able to be convinced to end the genocide in a sense other than the Completionist one. Only now we’ve proven to the Democrats that they don’t need the leftists at all actually and they’re free to move as far right as they wish. So maybe we even lose that.
Maybe we get incredibly lucky and Trump gets screwed over by these prosecutions and splits the GOP thus lowering the threshold for us to get an actual Leftist in? I’m not sure we can count on it with how the Judiciary is bending over backwards to try to delay these prosecutions until the election where presumably they’d all “have to get put on hold because it’s looks bad to be putting a presidential candidate on trial.” Y’know, that old chestnut.
Realistically, we have to reckon with the fact that First Past the Post Winner Take All Voting and the Electoral College screws us here. There’s a reason these systems mathematically tend towards a 2 party system. It’s incredibly frustratingly difficult, nigh on mathematically impossible to break through the tendency for Strategic Voting that this system breeds. It’s the Prisoner’s Dilemma, but on a massive scale. A scale where we can only afford what, maybe a hundred thousand people getting scared and bailing on the plan at most for us all to get the worst possible outcome?
As easy as it is to vote, its even easier to whine about why not doing it is better(?) Maybe?
Then they come at u like theyre so very superior for not voting. Like theyre going to start a revolution by yelling at the people supposedly closest to them in ideology. Bc, clearly, voting is only done by libs, so if u advocate for voting ur a superlib. Then theyll simp for china or russia, and act like even neoliberal countries dont have leftist parties attempting to participate in the government theyre so keen on making u forsake.
Almost like theres a vested interest in there… somewhere…
Also easy to call for “harm reduction” when you’re not the one being exterminated as part of the remaining “harm”
As if Trump wouldn’t exterminate them harder. With just the choice between these 2 candidates, I vote for the lesser genocider and then apply as much pressure as possible to lower that genocidey-ness even more. Short of a revolution, it’s the best we can do.
What group of voters would be exterminated under Biden?
Who said anything about voters?
Then it should be easy for every voter to call for harm reduction.
That’s a pretty selfish thing to say. To borrow from the stupid metaphor, I don’t want the driver to continue to run people over on the way to the ice cream parlor
The route to the cliff would run over way more people, and attempting to wrest control of a speeding bus is liable to hit even more. Why not vote for the ice cream place and make the avoidance of collisions a key priority? That seems like a safer option for everyone.
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Not in America, but I’m trans and have a number of trans friends in the states who are really scared right now. I live in Australia and have participated in pro-Palestine protests (if that’s who you’re implying with that). I loathe Biden, I think he’s a shitty old white dude, and I wish y’all could do better. But if protesting against Biden allows Trump to be elected, then there WILL be far worse consequences, both domestically and abroad. Thousands of trans people will lose their lives, and countless more will lose access to life-saving care. He will likely cut off support to Ukraine considering how he’s ingratiated himself to Putin before. He hasn’t indicated he’d stop supporting Israel either.
But if protesting against Biden allows Trump to be elected, then there WILL be far worse consequences
That’s 100% on Biden for being a legit protest target, not on the individuals with a moral compass who are pointing out his issues.
If we don’t want our non-fascist option to be protested against because it means they lose then there should be a better choice available
Well too bad. This is what we got. Either join the rest of us in reality or become yet another person helping fascists seize power.
helping fascists seize power.
See my other comment, I’m not doing that at all.
Stay mad, it’s funny
I’m sorry, but I genuinely think that’s reductive and stupid. In Australia, I get to have a choice. And every time I’ve voted, I exercised that choice to put someone other than our Democrats equivalent first on my ballot. Knowing my vote would still flow to them before electing someone who would rather see me dead. You don’t get to have that choice, and you can blame your founding father’s and the various people in control of your government since for that fact. But if you choose not to vote because Biden isn’t good enough, you are making a conscious choice towards fascism.
God. I called it in June 2016 and I’m calling it again now. Y’all are going to end up with Trump again because of people like you. And it’s going to fucking suck to be an Aussie online again for four years. Probably bloody longer.
Edit: It’s not even like 2016 where some people were sounding warning bells that Trump was going to be fascist. He’s been your president before this time around. You have seen what he is capable of, watched as he interfered with the peaceful transfer of power. If he takes office again, from my perspective, it will be the end of democracy in your country. You won’t get that choice again. At least not for a while and not without a lot of suffering first.
you are making a conscious choice towards fascism.
It’s fun to watch people write paragraphs of shit acting like they’ve got a point and then say something this objectively stupid because they don’t actually know what they’re on about.
I live in California, if I chose to not vote I’m making a conscious choice to support Biden, as that is who my states electoral votes are going to. If I chose to vote for any third party it’s the same outcome. Only if I explicitly vote for Trump (or another potential fascist) am I actually supporting fascism
But what if too many of you Californians think that and Biden loses?!
I can assure you that’s not happening here, though I’ve seen so many people online try to fear monger that it might. If t actually were a threat I’d get in lock-step for Biden to prevent fascism, but it’s not so I won’t.
if enough Californians opposed genocide to make it so that Biden didn’t get the California electoral votes, imagine the impact. seriously. it would be unprecedented.
I’m surprised an instance like this is okay with people showing up and arguing why letting a transphobic fascist take power is actually not as bad as it sounds.
This entire post is just about keeping things the way they are and never allowing anything meaningful to change.
Also I love that in this analogy that Biden is ice cream. Very genuine post.
I am not against voting, but the metaphor is really wrong and it doesn’t communicate how voting changes almost nothing.
The problem is that Hilary supported Trump in pied piper strategy to have an easier person to run against. This means that you are doing exactly what they want you to do and they are protecting Trump because they need him to be the other candidate so you are forced to support ice cream made of genocide.
Democrats are terrorists now, that hold the entire country hostage and demand murder of civilians in Gaza for their financial gain. We don’t have democracy either way, we will have genocide, wars and poverty either way. There really isn’t that big of a difference, because they support each other so they can win against us, the people. They are the same team, funded by same people, running on same campaigns, running the same narrative of lesser evil vs evil, while actually working together.
Their next move is for democrats to support same policies that republicans do now, and fund even more extreme republicans so that can be their candidate. The strategy clearly works. Whatever you are voting against this elections, you will be forced to vote for the next.
Why do we always assume the ones who don’t vote aren’t going to vote to run us off the cliff?
My frustration with the get out and vote push is that there is always this weird assumption that the ones who aren’t voting are some how going to magically push things into the “right” direction. What if we are all better off if they don’t vote?
Thus is the problem with our broken, binary choice system. Ranked voting may not be perfect, but it is exceeding better than the me we have now.
The four people vote and you still drive off a cliff due to gerrymandering
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”Both options are cliffs!”
But they are though.
The cliff drivers aren’t getting off the bus, even if we vote them down this time, if we don’t change the system that allows them equal opportunity to drive us off a cliff they will eventually force it off the cliff.
Biden has long supported the system that allows it, prides himself on being able to find a middle ground with them, and though he talks about not going over the cliff has no long term plan for dealing with those that do, because again he believes in the system that allows them to want to drive off the cliff.
I believe I’ve stretched this metaphor about as far as it will go, but I’m going to try stretching it further.
There are actually two cliffs, fascism and climate change, even if we pull the bus away from one cliff we’ve still got the other in front of us and basically no one is even pretending to deal with that.
And to leave the broken bus scenario, I’m just going to say if you believe that a trump win will destroy American democracy, that we can’t defeat his corrupt, senile version of fascism then the next republican demagogue will have no problems.
The problem is that “moderates” are very conservative and fascist-leaning as well. The Biden administration is still funding genocide, still turning away asylum-seeking migrants, hell Biden hasn’t even followed through on releasing prisoners convicted of marijuana convictions.
And people ARE protesting now, but not as much as under Trump, and these things haven’t changed. Biden allows barely engaged liberals to think everything is okay, but Biden is still AWFUL he just has better optics to liberals.
political power is when you assure your leaders that there is nothing they could do to lose your vote short of fucking your mom and even then you would have to consider whether the other guy would fuck your mom worse
I’d vote to fuck your mom…
Typing that out felt like a physical pang of regression, but I don’t take it back
I also choose this guy’s mom.
you mean whether the other guy would fuck mother nature worse?
Wait, is the ice cream at the bottom of the cliff?
Maybe, but you’ll pay less taxes on the tickets one we get there.
What kills me are the people whose preferred form of government is not currently the most popular form of government somehow think that after a revolution that their preferred form of government will win out. They’re delusional. In most cases the government gets worse, much worse, before it gets better.
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Or, more realistically:
- 3 vote to drive off the cliff
- 2 vote for ice-cream
- 4 vote to drive off the cliff at a slightly reduced speed, having been assured that they might get to look at a picture of some ice-cream, but only after democracy has been saved
Yeah, I really don’t get this attitude on Lemmy. I get not wanting to crash the bus. But voting for the guy who at best will let the other guy crash the bus in the future or at worst crash the bus tomorrow isn’t the answer.
I first thought that Lemmy was a little more of the early internet forums I remember, more anti-establishment, anarchist, left wing, but there’s way too much “vote blue no matter who” which is the exact same mentality that has killed the Republican party. Is Candidate A an immoral shit bag? Doesn’t matter; there’s a D next to their name. Probably better than the guy with the R. Better not see if anyone else is on the list.
I can afford to vote my conscience. I live in a deeply red state, so my vote doesn’t matter, something Democrats could try to fix, but they won’t. Voting 3rd party does matter though, and it’s the only way to truly affect real change and make a difference. It’s the DNC and RNC’s job to field a candidate who’s worth your vote. If they don’t do that, find someone who’s worth it.
Youre not going to get a chance to vote third party again under donnie dump, tho.
You will never get a chance to vote for what you want became America isn’t a democracy. It’s not a democracy if a club of rich people choose who you get to vote for. That’s literally how Chinese democracy works except it’s the party instead of the oligarchs.
Cant decide if this comment is more ignorant, or defeatist…
The bus is heading for a cliff. Someone stands up and says, “this is stupid! We should change the way we make decisions so this can’t happen!” You hold that person down so they can’t stop the driver because you want to tell the driver to get ice cream after the bus drives off the cliff.
Someone has not read the faq in the OP. And either theyve missed the million and one times i call for direct action, or theyre just another bad faith actor.
The US is not a democracy, it’s an oligarchy. This is a fact. We talk about it constantly. The fact that oligarchs basically choose who can and can’t run for the two major parties, and that the two major parties control the debates, mirrors the way the Chinese Communist Party controls who can run in elections. In both cases they let the people choose between the options that are acceptable to those who are actually in charge. This is just an observation of reality.
The US was built by slave owning oligarchs who didn’t want to pay taxes for the genocide they’d been doing. They built a system od government around controlling the population. Only landed white men could vote. The facade of the system has changed over time but the system itself remains largely the same: a small group of landed white men get to control basically everything. This is just an observation of history.
The idea that any colonizer state can possibly be democratic is just absurd. Any system bult on genocide and oppression won’t magically stop being built on genocide and oppression. The system must be completely replaced.
So the question to ask is if you advocate direct action to make sure this isn’t something that can ever happened again, or if you just advocate direct action so you can go back to brunch until next time?
Nah, they’ll still let parties that don’t have a chance run for election. Just look at Russia, they recently had an election…
Oh yes, fair point. Like the communist party of russia. There once was many, but they ensured only the one that they could best control remains
I would honestly recommend moving somewhere that federates with both lib and tankie servers because the tone/level of debate otherwise is pretty grim imho
