I know this is typical for the US so this is more for US people to respond to. I wouldn’t say that it is the best system for work, just wondering about the disconnect.
I think it’s because there’s some unwritten rule about not inducing children to commit suicide. I don’t think a little kid could handle such a curriculum without getting severely depressed and offing themselves. Adult survival of this is much higher, mostly thanks to access to sex, drugs, and rock and roll, something children are not allowed to have access to, given local laws and their status as legal minors. It is correct to lie to them and make them think that if they are good students now they will be successful as adults because they are too young to be exposed to night clubs where 9 to fivers tend to find refuge and a drug dealer at the end of a tough shift to survive and avoid suicide.
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America moment
Unfortunately, nowadays, the schools fail at both
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Because even I don’t want to work 9-5.
(Also, when are teachers supposed to do things like grade work, or kids to have extracurricular activities, 9-5 is draining, add in music or sports and there’s nothing left)
This was my first thought. Teachers definitely need time to assess outside of class time. I would think that assessment or grading would happen while they aren’t teaching. There should be a system where teachers grade outside of teaching time or during “homework/study hall” time. You would teach math for 6 hours and grade math for 2 or some breakdown that makes sense. I don’t want to make teachers work anymore than they already do. The current system doesn’t seem to respect them either way.
Also, why do teacher need to do all the grading?
Who do you propose else does it? Teachers know their students and can learn from tests etc and help them do better. additionally to the original argument, it’s not just grading that teachers have to do as well, also lesson/course planning, setup for lessons (eg slideshow/lab/printing). There’s just a lot for teachers to do outside of the classroom.
Well, you assess knowledge by using simplified electronic quizzes to take the busy work out of it, then dive into the “show your work” for those students who are struggling. And students who have mastered the material can work with those who are struggling and serve as a force multiplier. Tutoring others makes them even better students, and those tutored will have more 1:1 time than they could possibly get with a teacher.
Khan Academy has been working with schools in the Bay Area for more than a decade and the results are pretty astounding. Salman Khan’s TED Talk in 2011 is an exciting glimpse of the possible, and by all accounts those who use Khan Academy software and methods are reaping the benefits.
Can you tell me more about how Khan Academy have worked with schools in the Bay Area? I just finished uni and now have my teaching degree. I work in Sweden but I would like to read more about this.
I just know what Salman Khan has said about it – watch his videos for more.
Well most universities have TAs that either just do all grading, assist with grading, or help with lesson plans and it seems to work okay.
In an ideal system, there isn’t a reason that grade school teacher couldn’t have a TA that is also present in the class and familiar with the students.
Well you would have to hire someone to do that, and it’s my understanding that teachers are mostly underpaid and understaffed, so to at a minimum double the number of teachers would be excessively costly, to the point where even imagining it is laughable.
Not that I don’t like the idea, it’s just not feasible.
See: “In an ideal system”
This whole discussion is complete fantasy to begin with since changing the fundamental scheduling of the public education system would require a complete overhaul anyway.
It isn’t even just grading work. In my high school classroom I have students ranging from a second grade reading level to post grad. Every reading, worksheet, science lab, project needs to have accommodations and modifications written in to encompass that. That takes time.
Or creating a new lesson. Making a new lesson for a 50 minute period takes at least an hour.
Some of it can be done during study hall, while kids are doing their work.
Clearly you and I participated in very different school experiences. In highschool, I got on my bus each day at 7:30 and got back off the bus at 16:00. If you subtract the 30 minute lunch period, that adds up to almost exactly 8 hours each day.
Factoring in the 2 hours of homework that was regularly assigned, I actually have substantially more free-time as a working 9-5 adult (my school did not have “study hall” time). A young me would have done unspeakable things for a chance at abolishing homework!
Just because students are at school does not mean they are in a typical class. Our school has athletics right after classes. We got out about 5. Just make other options, perhaps skills, clubs, study hall, etc.
That wouldn’t change the length of the school day, just shift it (from 7 to 3), so I don’t know why you would eliminate homework for that. The big problem would be for after-school activities, especially outdoor activities that need daylight.
School is 7-3 where you are? It’s more like 8:30-3:30 here
8:10-3:10 here. And they do not want students there before 7:50. That makes it impossible to get to work on time. Luckily my boss lets me shift my day somewhat.
A lot of the school system is set on many of the people in the country being farmers so you do a lot of scheduling to allow them to work on the farm. This is why do you get the summers off and some other vacations that fit with other major times for growing crops?
I’m pretty familiar with the farming aspect of all of this, but clearly we are way beyond needing children for farming (except for some child labor law changes that I’d like to ignore in this case). To me, it sounds like a legacy issue that was never changed with the times. Just my observation
And there’s no reason urban and rural schools need to run on exactly the same schedule. Urban districts have been experimenting with things like year-round school for decades.
I tried that in the university. It was a terrible idea and had to fail a couple of matters. Having exams at the same time and date didn’t help, either.
The homework aspect in theory helps with the University structure.
I guess that’s another suspect of eating away people’s time. If university takes more than 8 hours then it is also in question. If people want to be subjected to work outside of their 8 hour window, they should be allowed. Forcing this is crazy.
The thing about university “requiring” people to work more than 8 hours is this: It’s not a human right to become a system architect, physicist or engineer. Universities typically don’t require more than 8 hours per day, but a lot of studies in practice require more than 8 hours if you want to be able to get through them. Relaxing the requirements for passing a degree would mean less competent professionals leaving the universities, and I don’t think anyone getting on a plane or going into surgery wants that.
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Perhaps. But only the last 2-4 years. No student below high school should have homework (there is research to back this up). And they can do it in study hall, not necessarily at home. College courses have like half the class time, so professors hit the hard parts and expect students to read and get the rest on their own.
No student below high school should have homework (there is research to back this up).
Might I ask what research? Could you give me a source or two? I’m rather intrigued by this
I found a summary, but the link to the research is broken:
A lot of schools are going to this model now, at least in Texas around me. Texas requires interventions if kids fail the STAAR (the statewide test they take that shows they know the material they’ve learned during the school year) so a lot of schools have built in an intervention period (or whatever the campus calls it) to give those kids the intervention time. My kid doesn’t need intervention so they just do their homework during that time. They can sign up to go to certain teachers to get help, too. And a lot of schools/teachers have gotten away from assigning homework, since it just punishes the kids who don’t have support st home.
Cynicism: also primes for the need to bring work home and be available off the clock.
As someone who is getting ready to work at 9pm on a Sunday night…what’s this clock you speak of?
Yes, but also: In a lot of professions you have a lot of freedom regarding when you work. I’m browsing lemmy now, and getting to work at around 10, but I worked late on Friday, and I’m probably going to be answering some mails after dinner today.
I think this is just going to become more common: Not paying people for for the time they are at work, but rather for the job they do. That means that if you prefer to work 9-5, thats fine, but if you prefer to leave earlier or start later, and get some of your work done in the afternoon/weekends, thats also fine, as long as you get the job done.
I very much enjoy having that freedom. Even though it means I may be expected to pull longer days every now and then, it also means nobody questions me for leaving early when the weather is nice.
This exactly demonstrates my mindset.
If they had school until 5, when will the football team practice?
During the 9-5.
Bonus, let’s nix the football team too. We don’t need the traumatic brain injuries.
I very much enjoy sports but I don’t think education and preparation should be displaced by playing a game for entertainment. School is for learning. Maybe there should be a trade school for sports that happens later or is auxillary to normal education.
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Exercise/sports have so many positive benefits in the context of education. The benefits toward discipline and physical health are obvious, but they also promote greater mental sharpness and spiritual well-being.
Anecdotally, most of my mathematics professors were big on exercise in one form or another. I had a older professor who could easily sprint up the six flights of stairs to his office, and I had another professor who was into running marathons. I even heard that at one point, all the logicians at Cornell became very into weightlifting.
Anyways, my point is that any well-rounded education should involve sports (though, maybe not necessarily American football; I can agree with the other user on that front).
I fully disagree on the “sports” aspect in its entirety. Exercise, yes, obvious benefits, and there’s such a great variety than you definitely can find something you enjoy.
But some people simply don’t like team sports or competitions.
I will always prefer to ride my bike, lift weights, etc. than EVER play baseball, tennis, football, or soccer ever again.
Football should not be a disproportionately large portion of a school’s budget when they could also be offering things like group classes, or funding for other clubs which hold functions for non-sports athletics.
The thing is this: You wouldn’t have known what kind of activities you enjoy unless you had been exposed to a variety of them at some point. I absolutely think part of the education system’s job is to expose kids to a wide variety of activities, help them push their boundaries regarding what they think is fun, and experience mastering different things.
I don’t know about your education system, but it seems like there may be a too one-sided focus on some sports. I remember from my time in grade school that we were exposed to pretty much everything from hockey/football (the kind you play with your feet)/basketball to dance/gymnastics/weight lifting/track and field, etc.
In theory, the reasons for work and school are different. Homework is given out as it is thought to help the student learn more.
You can get into some issues with being expected to perform some work training off the clock, but this is usually a lot more frowned upon.
I always thought the reason school days go from 7-3 or 8-4 (or whatever) is usually more about bus scheduling and logistics. And high schools historically start earliest (despite it being worse for teens) so older siblings will be home and can watch younger siblings after school.
Maybe that’s just what I was told growing up but if every school did 9-5, they would need more bus drivers.
Yup, we can’t get bus drivers so they stagger schedules. One local district had the secondary campuses start later, and the parents have complained precisely because the younger kids have no one to watch them in the afternoon. Plus 5 year-olds aren’t really at their best learning at 7:30 in the morning. When I taught at a high school we moved our start time feom 8 to 8:30. The kids were still tired because they just stayed up later. Most of my tired kids were up working or caring for siblings - or their own children. Starting later didn’t really make a difference.
There are compelling reasons send them 9-5
There are also compelling reasons not to
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Teachers spend a non-trivial amount of time post class working on previous assignments, future assignments, setting up tests coordinating with other teachers and staff. If they start all this at 5, they’re stuck at the office until very late.
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Busses/kids on the road before rush hour
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Extra-curricular activities are better off earlier than later, don’t want clubs running into diner time.
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better chance of getting home before dark in winter at Northern latitudes
For #4, with current school hours, you either go to school in darkness or you go home in darkness. That’s just reality for those who live further north.
This is true, I would argue that it’s relatively better have the darkness be early in the morning less mischief happens.
In the winter, even at the most southern point (Windsor, ON) Canada gets dark around 4pm.
Better chance of getting home before dark in winter at Northern latitudes.
Cries in living at 62o north
What if all the honework in the future is done online and multiple choice… if its a written asignment it can be graded by an AI. Bada bing teachers have not much more to complain about. If you are a teacher and are still complaining about having to grade homework, its probably because your administration is stuck in 2007.
God I hope not I can’t stand ai grading an answer can be partially right or even wrong but cause interesting discussion from a human while badly implemented AI (which is what schools likily would have access to) will just give a percentage failure rate and move on.
AI isn’t good enough to grade written responses. If your referring to chat gtp and the like, they meant to be factual. Also online multiple choice homework can suck awfully depending on the course; physics comes to mind in this scenario since it requires an answer with precision and matching units to mark the homework as correct and that can make it really difficult to resolve and even if the teacher sets it up for partial credit if you get it right after attempts, if you can’t figure it out it is a 0. That physics homeaork destroyed and consumed my entire life lol
A better argument would be, is homework worth it? Once AI has significantly advanced to be trustworthy enough to grade, it will be trustworthy enough to do the homework.
Want to be forward facing? How long before AI replaces teachers? What if classes were solely presented as video feeds. At any point you can raise your hand, It would stop the video feed. You ask the AI question. It formulates a response and then tests you to make sure that you understand the answer before moving on.
Imagine getting the equivalent of one-on-one tutoring in every subject.
What if instead of milestone tests the AI just follows along and makes sure you understand what’s going on? What if the next day it does a quick recap on the previous days lesson and asks you a couple of questions to make sure you get it?
What happens when each individual learns at their own pace and goes as fast or as slow as they need to. What happens when you can just walk away from a lesson and come back later?
Edit: I just cleaned up some text from voice dictation.
AI doesn’t know what it doesn’t know, let alone what somebody else doesn’t know.
“Understanding” is just something that AI can’t do. It doesn’t know what your words mean, or what it’s own word mean.
The advantage of curriculum is that you could feed it a textbook or a dozen and have that be the only information it knows. It doesn’t need to know everything, just the specific criteria that a government sets as baseline knowledge for specific tiers.
The science will improve with time.
There are a couple of flaws with this. I spend a great deal of time structuring lessons to get students working with each other. I have met, and taught, too many people who have said that the only reason they stuck out through high school was the relationships they developed with thier peers and staff. We’ve seen what happens when students only do solo computer work, and it isn’t pretty.
There’s no requirement to be socially ostracized. You can still have groups, clubs, online and offline connections.
I suspect most students will likely find they have more spare/social time. When they can learn at their own pace with individual attention.
You may find that less kids feel like they are toughing it out, under these scenarios.
I use the Modern Classroom Model for my classroom for the last couple of years which is a self-paced system. In 2020 during our zoom school year I was also fully self paced. Here are a few things I’ve found.
A handful of students will shut down with self-paced learning. They have low self-efficacy and are failure avoidant.
Another handful of students will hand off their chromebook to “the smart kid” in a different class and have them take the mastery checks for them. They will end up bombing the mastery assessment, but teenagers are not known for their executive function.
A different handful have limited capacity for additional cognitive load. It is hard to do school when you don’t know where you are sleeping that night or some other chronic trauma. They thrive when being told explicitly what to do, how to do it.
Yet another handful will fly through the curriculum because they long ago figured out the game of school. Yet when I check in and ask deep, meaningful questions to see if they really understand the topic, they can’t.Young gen Z and gen alpha really need to work on social skills and work ethic. Solo-self-paced experiences don’t cover it.
I disagree on the work ethic point, but that could be its own whole rant about how the concept of “work ethic” is fundamentally flawed in a society where many jobs simply aren’t fulfilling and are only done for the carrot on a stick of being able to buy food and a roof over your head.
But on everything else, I wholeheartedly agree as somebody who came to hate the school system but loves to learn. It’s not just a Gen Z and younger issue, though I imagine they have it even worse considering the pandemic. I think it’s a flaw in how the school system is designed. School focuses on solo work almost to the exclusion of collaboration, and life just doesn’t work that way. Society is a collaborative effort, and even working at a cubicle farm on a solo project, it’s not like you can’t talk to your fellow workers to help solve problems. Plus, the pass or fail mechanism of the grading system ends up punishing mistakes and either creates risk aversion outright, kids who don’t bother because they’ve failed so many times that they believe it’s not worth even trying, or those kids who do well without trying until they get to later grades and have no study habits, who then learn that if they’re not instantly good at something, then it’s not worth putting effort into because they don’t know how to be bad at something long enough to get good.
I’m certainly no teacher, but I think the issue is that the foundational framework of our current school system was designed to create workers who could be expected to work on a factory line. People who could be given a short and simple list of repetitive tasks to follow, without the need for collaboration or anything more mentally demanding. Add in that many school subjects (at least when I was in school 15-20 years ago) lack any real-world context to their purpose, just “learn this because you have to,” and I’m not surprised that kids also have no drive to dig deeper than a surface level understanding. I remember the mentality of “just remember it long enough to do the test, and then dump it for the next set of things you have to learn.” It got me through high school.
AI is nowhere near good enough to be trusted with grading written assignments, and won’t be for a very long time.
- We shouldn’t be forcing our children to spend the majority of their waking lives chained to a desk doing menial work mixed with some valuable education and instead allow them to actually be kids and be outside doing kid things.
I’m a private teacher and I see so many kids who are like, I am in school from 8-3:30, then from 3:50-5 I’m in softball, then I’m in a study group from 5:30-7. I go to bed at 9.
Kids aren’t allowed to be kids much of the time anymore. Most everything seems to be in the duality of either “Glued to their devices” or “Endless cycle of extracurricular and studying”
I absolutely refused to do homework back in the day. I had one math teacher that took your median grade and used that as the final grade. I would calculate to the assignment what it took to get an a, and do that much homework between arriving to class and the time she checked homework in.
I would always rush to complete my assignments early in other classes do any homework that I could get done before class change. I always aced my tests.
I think the worst was when the teacher would assign us to read ahead of chapter for the next days lesson. Yeah so you want me to be miserable tonight, and double bored tomorrow.
I also hated that the teachers never communicated. They would unintentionally group-assign hours of workload in non-GT classes.
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Because Christ almighty do you want schools to be nothing but factories that churn out adults ready to go to the office mines
I’m just thinking of the many students I taught who worked full time jobs after school to help support their families.
While were at it, let’s just remove school entirely. Children could compete in the free market of unpaid internships and develop skills that will be useful for their working life. I feel like government has had a monopoly on education for too long, let’s let the free market do it’s thing and save the day.
Save money on funding schools! Send children to mines and lumber mills! A bandsaw can teach life lessons and costs less than a year of a teacher’s salary!
Oh god please let this be sarcasm, it’s so hard to tell nowadays.
Corporations don’t think so. “you need experience to get unpaid internship”
Their Lemmy instance provider:
Our mission is to provide remotely accessible computing facilities for the advancement of public education, cultural enrichment, scientific research and recreation.
Not that I think this is the way, I don’t, but…
With the amount of time it takes to train a completely green person off the street, even at seemingly menial tasks, im not sure corporations would actually allow this.
Although, they arent paying a wage, this plan would eat into real production time and materials, and with this “just in time,” software oriented, prefab mindset they have, overall i think they would still lose money.
Sure they don’t have to train people to think anymore, but even operating machinery correctly or following a preset design, is rough for alot of people.
The struggle to find knowledgeable, skilled labor is real, but unless paid people are taking time out of thier day to teach these interns the ins and outs of a machine or how to read plans, said intern wouldn’t learn jack squat. Unless the company has time and money to kill, at the very least, trade school is still required.
Nah, corporations would never go for it.
Many companies view teaching employees as an investment. Sure, someone with skill will have to work with them for a time but then they create enough value to pay that back and more as his or her life unfolds.
Because kids are too young to drink.
And the teachers aren’t supposed to.
