Women and girls usually end up in a relationship by the end of the story and/or are the ones needing to be rescued. Its formulaic, boring and sexist due to the comparative lack of the opposite occurring. eg. men needing to be rescued.
Like… even if you did not give a single shit about sexism, its the same tired plot points over and over again. It has Hallmark channel writer energy. Create a second plot I beg you.
I recently read a collection of novels by a prominent 1960s science fiction writer. In three novels and 400 pages, I don’t think there was a single female character who advanced the plot other than by sexually entertaining a male character (Despite one of the books having a female title character, and another had a lot of minor female characters.) I know it’s a product of its era, but even then, there were more woman PhDs than men who’d been to space, so I think a good science fiction author ought to be able to at least imagine the possibility. I have nothing against female sexuality, but the most interesting women supplement it with some other talent.
It was the 1960s dude, if he’d written a novel with an empowered woman he probably would have been arrested and sent to Vietnam
I agree with you on principle, but i feel it has reached a point where the circumvention of the classic tropes has created a new and also very formulaic stereotype: the “empowering“ woman. Must be strong, butch, evidently better than men in something typically associated with men, and if by any chance she is permitted to be classically feminine she must either be a lesbian or emotionally fucked up somehow. Bonus points for leather jacket and shades.
It is probably the better trope but i find it similarly boring at this point. Very performative and often with little relevance to the story being told.
Literally has to force in their own “I am no man” line.
That one is worse in my mind as baring steroids men will be physically larger and stronger than women. women should have motivetions other than marry a strong man (nothing wrong with wanting a good husband, I know many young girls looking for one - but please don’t be the cardboard that is all I want)
Must be strong, butch, evidently better than men
And this writing style often results in complete lack of character development. Because how would you develop a character that is ideal from the start?
They also can’t have any scars on their face that could make them less attractive. Hester shaw from the predator city books had her fucking nose cut off and the scar also took off some her her top lip yet in the fucking dog shit movie they made she looks like this
Now, to be fair, in the Punisher TV show they also refused to make pretty boy Jigsaw actor look as fucked up as his face really SHOULD have looked according to the comics.
Also why some characters that NEED to be wearing masks or helmets conveniently are not. Like in race cars or in space. Or the face protection is unrealistic so we can still mostly see them.
There’s also some funny times where comic characters who can’t breathe in space are merely wearing a small covering of the mouth, and maybe nose, but not eyes/ears.
But that’s not specific to women, a similar example is Tyrion Lannister in A Song of Ice and Fire https://metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/mg_got_tyrion.png
That has to do with Hollywood wanting actors to look pretty and with costs of keeping effects realistic and cost efficient even on close ups.
I think it might be partially prettiness but I think it is mostly practicality. If the makeup is that difficult, it will take hours every day to put on. It can be hell on the actors. I remember reading about Peter Ustinov who played Hercule Poirot in “Murder on the Orient Express” but refused to do it for “Death on the Nile” because he did not want to have to wear that makeup in Egypt.
You have to make sure complicated makeup always looks consistent. It would have been really hard to do that in a series over multiple years.
One other example I can think of is Katniss in The Hunger Games. If you read the novel, her body was REALLY broken. I think her entire body was covered in burn scars. It would have been very hard to do that in the film consistently (though I will note that in the novels, the scars are not on her face. I saw it as symbolic of the inner scars of the Games).
So I think it is partially aesthetic but mostly practical.
For one thing, too many works of fiction involve a romance. I don’t judge the romances itself, I would never get between even multiple people in love when on a screen, but these things don’t always have to be in the boundaries of the story. Even works like DC Comics which promote themselves on a realism basis give romances out like a token. Which is why the ending to Battleship saved that movie in my eyes.
Elves always being like the bottom rung of society or them being the outcasts. It’s insane to think that elves wouldn’t be the rulers of dam near any government or at the very least not be the power and influence behind a puppet government. Who wouldn’t want the help of a race of people who, depending on the lore, can live for thousands of years.
I mean, there could be an elf that has been a friend of your family for like 5 or more generations. That sounds dope as fuck for us but kinda shitty for them.
I like what Tolkien did with the elves. They went from a warmongering bloodthirsty species to ancient and wise and they decided to gtfo and live on a secluded island out of reach from pretty much everyone.
Vulcans really are space elves
Well there’s also the whole “The One Ring is the only thing still keeping the elves’ magic alive, so they know that destroying the One Ring will inevitably lead to the end of the elves” side of things. That’s why all the elves in LOTR are so fucking morbid about everything. The elves rely on magic, and while it did a lot of damage and was undoubtedly evil, the One Ring bound that magic to Middle Earth because it was the same magic Sauron used to appear in Middle Earth. So by helping to destroy the One Ring (and breaking Sauron’s tether to Middle Earth) they’re also destroying the only thing keeping their magic from drying up over time. They’re inadvertently starting a ticking time bomb for themselves.
At least, that’s what I remember off the top of my head. It could be completely wrong, but I’m too lazy to google it.
Multiple simultaneous plot threads. So weak.
The plot is discovery and progressive revealment of big weird thing. The climax is flashback-heavy explanation of big weird thing.
The way GOT ended with making the storyteller (the writer) become an important part of the story. The writers self insert is a problem in a lot of media but particular in fantasy.
More than 17 apostrophes on the first page with every name of a person, place, or thing having one.
I remember seeing some sort of graph, where the number of made up words on the first page of a fantasy novel can be charted to a skewed bell curve of that novel’s average rating. One or two made up words tends to boost ratings slightly, but more than that and the ratings quickly decline. Because if an author is immediately dependent on introducing new words as a crutch for worldbuilding, it doesn’t bode well for the rest of the book.
So, Tolkien, Herbert, etc are failures?
They wrote their books before readers became more lazy.
Ah yes, H’taln’k from J’briom-4, flying his Zal’t M’lort class Winger to the Mont Bronl’n port with the day’s haul of Sea Crom’t. Oh won’t his mabs’k be pleased with this delivery.
Chill, not all of us speak Klingon
Today is a good day to learn.
Also kennings. No, you do not sound mysterious using “younglings” instead of children.
This is specific to the videogame-ish sub-genre, mostly Isakeis…
But you go out of the way to include RPG mechanics into your story… but the only real influence it has on the storytelling is spending an inordinate amount of time grinding… a mechanic explicitly added to RPGs to pad the game.
There are good video game based stories, Survival Story of a Sword King and Dungeon Reset both immediately come to mind… but I feel like this is a widespread problem.
The Wandering Inn handles this well, where to hit large milestones you need not just xp but self development.
Is The Wandering Inn this one https://wanderinginn.com/ ? Can’t find anything else .
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girls falling in love with the main character and wanting to stay with him for the rest of the story just because they have met random.
I think that’s the plot of Thumbalina. And yes, it’s stupid.
The Chosen One somehow discovering some new thing at the climax of any big conflict.
I’m looking at you, Sword of Truth.
I started off really enjoying the series, but eventually had to abandon it as he kept adding increasingly over the strawmen who’s sole purpose was to be blown away by the might of Randian Objectivism.
Yeah, I always felt like the series would have been better as a single book (maybe the first and part of the second?). Playing with ideas of truth and perceived truth was cool, but it wasn’t enough to sustain such a long series.
Throwing out peripeteia / anagnorisis would kind of ruin a massive portion of fictional literature.
I’m not against it as a general rule, it’s just frustrating when it’s overused–ends up feeling like a deus ex machina thing.
I think I generally agree. But it is like most the other things in the thread. The plot mechanic is fine when done well and bad when done poorly or as a cop out.
So I think most of us just hate shitty storytelling.
The series is so long, which part are you referring to? Lmao it is one of my favorites still though.
(I’m pretty sure in a bunch of cases he uses magic to resolve stuff but never understands what he’s doing and most of the time can’t replicate it)
Also have you read sword of justice series?
Most of the series past the first book is what I was referring to. It seemed like, for at least several books, there’s some big climax and he suddenly rediscovers some lost aspect of War Magic that saves the day, mostly unrelated to the rest of the book. It’s been over a decade since I read them though, so I might not be remembering it right.
Still enjoyed the series as a whole, despite a few things. Haven’t read sword of justice, but I might give it a try.
Its been quite some time since I read them as well, but you aren’t wrong. Well I’ve a host of recommendations if you ever need any!
So far I’ve discovered in this thread:
-People don’t like traditional fantasy that takes itself seriously.
-People don’t like lighthearted fantasy that plays with the themes.
-People don’t like hard magical systems.
-People don’t like soft magical systems.
-People don’t like dragons being involved.
-People don’t like an absence of dragons.
-People don’t like character archetypes.
-People don’t like counterarchetypes.
-People don’t like when characters speak an understandable language.
-People don’t like characters meeting each other in common social meeting areas.All good here? Great.
Just write whatever the fuck you want. There’s always an audience.
“And you should win things by watching!”
That’s why you’re still kids, ‘cuz you’re stupid!
I like all those things. Well I guess I prefer rigid / hard magic systems, but either can be done well.
That’s just lemmy being too god damn stupid to differentiate between “this is my preference” and “this is bad”, as usual.
“I don’t like dragons”: preference.
“I don’t like Mary Sue characters”: bad writing.
My brother in Christ, that’s not just lemmy. That’s the whole god damned world.
what about „I like bad dragons“?
“I like naughty dragons” pretty sure those exists.
That’s not Lemmy. That’s people
I’m used to a bit of a better caliber of people…from reddit, which is sad
That’s just you arbitrarily putting dragons and mary sues into different bins
To be fair the OP question says both “bad writing tropes” and “[that] you hate”, so subjective answers were inevitable.
I guess it should have just not said “bad”, since that implies an objective standard.
Elves and Dwarves done like every other Elf and Dwarf. Especially when they go out of their way to give the Dwarf that overdone Irish/Scottish accent written out in damn near unreadable text.
Also when the worldbuilding and plot basically is “here’s some not so thinly veiled racism between groups who will set that aside to fight a common enemy.” Series ends on a high note, but you know this world will fall into disarray again cause people suck, so like, what was the point.
Elves and dwarves being monolithic cultures. I’d be fine the the standard stereotype if that was only one kind. There are so many kinds of humans, it’s hard to believe that there is only one kind of dwarf. Make Irish vs Scottish dwarves or something, cmon. Make dwarves Mongolian, idk.
The Scottish accent is baffling. “Dwarves originate from Scandinavian mythology, so let’s give them a Scottish accent!” Elves (the human-sized kind) originate from Scandinavian mythology as well, why not give them Scottish accents?
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You meet your party at the tavern…
A tavern is a perfect place to meet strangers. It is a social hangout where new things are bound to be found!
The problem is always starting an adventure by interacting with a mysterious stranger they have no reason to trust. Why isn’t Aunt Elovynn sending them on their way from a family get together? Or the religious leader that the characters know and trust giving them a start?
Tavern is a perfect place to meet, though it’s neutral ground and it’s public. Most people won’t start shit in public.
Zero consistency to magic systems. I get it, having all sorts of spells in the story is fun and gives a lot of creative ways to make fights more interesting, but…
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If teleportation magic exists, why don’t people who own it teleport everywhere?
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If time travel magic exists, why isn’t everyone doing everything in their power to get it and use it? Looking at you, harry potter.
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The villains usually have spells that are supposed to be ultra powerful and can kill anyone quickly but somehow it doesn’t work against main characters and there’s no excuse for why fights drag on for so long. Imagine seeing the villain introduced by vaporizing someone but never seeing them do it again.
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Main character(s) breaking the rules of magic just because…
I’m a fan of stories like Avatar the last airbender or Witch Hat Atelier because their magic is very consistent. It makes things way more interesting when a character can’t just pull something out of their ass to save them in the middle of a fight.
Shoutout to every story that alludes to the fact that mages can run out of mana but is insanely inconsistent how and when it happens. Sometimes they spam spells for hours and sometimes it’s just “Oh no, I can’t use [spell] anymore because… Um… The plot says I can’t!”
If teleportation magic exists, why don’t people who own it teleport everywhere?
Another wizard and I absolutely wrecked our DM’s in game economy just teleporting everywhere. Wizard Instant Shipping Inc.
Checks out lol, it’s a busted ability
If teleportation magic exists, why don’t people who own it teleport everywhere?
Because you die and a copy of you is created.
If time travel magic exists, why isn’t everyone doing everything in their power to get it and use it? Looking at you, harry potter.
It can only be used by women who have borne children, to travel to a point before they bore children. Obviously, this means their child disappears from existence.
The villains usually have spells that are supposed to be ultra powerful and can kill anyone quickly but somehow it doesn’t work against main characters and there’s no excuse for why fights drag on for so long. Imagine seeing the villain introduced by vaporizing someone but never seeing them do it again.
The main character leaves his normal life when a villain’s casual disappearing spell actually “doubles” him, resulting in the origin of his heroic power.
Main character(s) breaking the rules of magic just because…
Because schizophrenia. Main character hears voices and they occasionally meld into a chorus in a way that produces unique magical outcomes.
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I can give the first half of Harry Potter a slack because it’s pretty laid back and whimsical. As soon as it tries to take itself seriously it kind of falls apart for me. God, deathly hallows sucked.
I stopped reading after the 4th book at release. Never really had interest in picking up the next couple of books.
When my interest in “well, might as well give it a go again” started back up, JKR started to go insane and now I don’t want to have anything to do with the series anymore
I remember when all the controversy started I thought wow, this must be exaggerated somehow, and sought out what she had actually said. Oh. My. Fucking. God. When she was challenged she didn’t just double down, she quadrupled down, and then some. Loathsome woman, just awful.
Why couldnt she just fuck off to a tropical island and stay off twitter? Same thing with notch (guy that created minecraft)
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For a woman who wrote “it matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be.” She seems awful fucking concerned with what categroies people were born into.
If only there was an epic saga about the conquering power of love over bigotry that she could read. Maybe one involving a boy who lives or some fantastic magical beasts?
She started the series on benefits, and ended them a billionaire.
“It matters not what someone is born” is a very unfair sentence, what you are born can set the difficulty level of your life to extra easy or infinite pain regardless of your will and efforts. The anti-suicide nets off the windows of the iphone factories are not there for people born in a rich family.
She likes the slytherins and Snape. The warning signs were there from the beginning.
Eliezer Yudkowsky can be a bit preachy at times, but he did a good job of pulling on threads in Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality to try to get to a fairly consistent model of magic
The series goes from “magic wands require extreme responsibility and must be used carefully,” to machine gun wands.
There’s a thing I heard somewhere about how your magical system needs to have a balance between how well it’s understood vs. how useful it is, or else it will break the plot.
If a magic system is extremely useful, then it must also be extremely mysterious, so that you can say “Well, it can’t immediately fix all problems because the gods work in mysterious ways.” Gandalf or Tom Bombadil seem incredibly powerful, but they don’t solve all of the problems in Middle Earth, and that’s okay because they’re terribly mysterious.
If a magic system is extremely well understood in-universe, then it has to have hard limits on how useful it is, so you can say something like “Well, the Law of Equivalent Exchange says that to solve all our problems would require a blood sacrifice of the entire population, so that’s not an option.”
If your magic is pretty well-understood AND very useful, then by all rights it OUGHT to solve all your problems, and when it doesn’t then readers rightly begin to question why any of the plot needs to happen at all (see, for example, the time turners in Harry Potter).
One of the things I enjoy most about Sanderson’s work is his attention to detail in his numerous magic systems.
And the imaginative variety. The magic system in the Mistborn series was fantastic and unlike anything I had ever read or even imagined. And then he adapted it consistently to an industrial age, and somehow made it work. Respect to Sanderson.
Shoutout to every story that alludes to the fact that mages can run out of mana but is insanely inconsistent how and when it happens. Sometimes they spam spells for hours and sometimes it’s just “Oh no, I can’t use [spell] anymore because… Um… The plot says I can’t!”
hhahahaa, just like reload when dramatically appropriate.
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Same reasons I find extended comic universes to be appalling. Why don’t superheroes just use all of their powers all the time? Why isn’t the more powerful superhero conveniently here right now? Why do we have to pretend there is a struggle?
The minute 2 or more superheroes are put together, it’s basically ruined cause all their powers are only used as convenient for the story.
I think the web novel Worm does this really well. I recently got it recommended to me and am enjoying it immensely! :)
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The “Deckbuilder” litrpgs where the words card and deck dont mean anything and its just skills
