The aircraft flew up to speeds of 1,200mph. DARPA did not reveal which aircraft won the dogfight.
I see we are gonna take a piss on Asimov’s robots rules pretty quickly
Oh 100%.
If the options are “make gigantic profit” or “do what’s right for the future of humanity” do you even need to ask what we’re going to do?
Not at all, but it kind of bugs me how Asimov’s perception of the future weighted so much fear towards AI over profit.
The F-16 being flown by the AI has 3-D Thrust Vectoring.
It’s an absolute beast of an aircraft.
That seems like cheating if it’s being put up against a standard f16…
So does my penis and it is not a beast of a penis.
We all know which aircraft won the fight.
Those of us who play video games do at least. All the AI difficulty settings are arbitrary. You give the bot the ability to use its full capability, and the game is unplayable.
Plus they had humans on board the AI jet. I imagine it could pull some crazy insane Gs without the human pushing the engineering to the red line.
In video games the AI have access to all the data in the game. In real life both the human and AI have access to the same (maybe imprecise) sensor data. There are also physical limitations in the real world. I don’t think it’s the same scenario.
I think even the imperfect sensor data is enough to beat a human. My main argument for why self-driving cars will eventually be objectively safer than the best human drivers (no comment about whether that point has already done) is this:
A human can only look at one thing at a time. Compared to a computer, we see allow, think slow, react show, move slow. A computer can look in all directions all the time, and react to danger coming from any of those directions faster than a human driver would even if they were lucky enough to be looking in the right direction. Add to that the fact that they can take in much more sensor data that isn’t available to the driver or take away from precious looking-at-the-road time for the driver to know, such as wind resistance, engine RPM, or what have you (I’m actually not a car guy so my examples aren’t the best). Bottom line: the AI has a direct connection to more data, can take more of it in at once and make faster decisions based on all of it. It’s inherently better. The “only” hurdles are making it actually interpret its sensors effectively (i.e. understand what cameras are seeing) and make good decisions based on this data. We can argue about how well either of those are in the current state of the technology, but IMO they’re both good enough today to massively outperform a human in most scenarios.
All of this applies to an AI plane as well. So my money is on the AI.
Not exactly, AI would be able to interpret sensor data in a more complete and thorough way. A person can only take in so much information at once - AI not so limited.
Don’t get me wrong. Humans have many limitations that AI don’t in this scenario. I’m not saying that a human would do better. For example, as others have stated, an AI doesn’t suffer from G forces like a human does. AI also reads the raw sensor data instead of a screen.
All I’m saying that this case is not the same as a videogame.
Video games can model point of view and limit AI to what they can legitimately see, while still taking the governor chip off their aiming and reaction time performance.
While true, I wonder how many games actually do this.
Ai can balance a physical triple pendulum and move between positions fluidly just using vision alone, a human has no chance at coming close.
We’re genuinely in the sci-fi robots are better than humans phase of history, by 2030 you’ll be used to seeing impressive things done by robots like dude perfect videos with people setting up crazy challenges like ‘I got my robot to throw THIS egg through THIS obstacle course and you’ll never belive how it did it!’
For sure without humans the AI probably wins, assuming the instruments are good. This wasn’t without humans, but it probably still wins.
I’m fairly certain most dogfights happen on instruments only at this point, so I don’t see a chance the human won. The AI can react faster and more aggressively. It can also almost perfectly match a G-load profile limit (which could be much higher without humans on board) where a human needs to stay a little under to not do damage.
This is all assuming the data it was given was good and comprehensive, which I’m sure it was. It also likely trained in a simulation a lot too. This is one of those things AI is great for. Anything that requires doing something new and unique it can’t handle, but if it just requires executing an output based on inputs, that’s a perfect use case.
I don’t know, one camera lead falls out and it’s all over for the AI. The human still is going to be more adaptable than an AI and always will be until we have full true AGI.
Having said that if we ever do have AGI I 100% believe the US military would be stupid enough to put it in a combat aircraft.
What if the pilot has a stroke?
Yeah but a camera lead falling out isn’t normal
What if we invent artificial gravity just so we can simulate pilot orientation and g forces while they sit still in a simulator?
Whataboutism taken to its extreme there.
Hell, what if we invented warp drive that allowed us to teleport bombs directly into our enemies headquarters?
Nonsense hypotheticals are not whataboutism.
Thank you
No we have g-force production. Until we release those electrogravitics from the top secret labs we can’t actually simulate g forces.
Electrogravitics seem like a conspiracy theory. Unless they’ve been around as long as human centrifuges, which DO simulate g-forces, I doubt that they’d be more economical even if they do exist.
There is a connection between gravity and electromagnetics, but it’s mostly through the stress-energy tensor giving photons momentum (and thus gravitational pull) but to use an EM field to measurable gravity you need absolutely insane amounts of energy.
You essentially need the literal inverse of a supermassive nuclear explosion (almost like a small star), because the gravitational effect of energy is equivalent to the gravitational effect of the mass which it would form if bound, and given E=mc^2 and the fact that nuclear bombs are small enough to barely have measurable gravity then the math means you need truly insane amounts of energy. (unless somebody can figure out a cheat to create directional pull with much less energy, but I strongly doubt it)
It’s more plausible that somebody would be able to scale up “optical tweezers” to move large masses (directly depositing momentum of the energy field on an object) because that no longer involves the E=mc^2 equation, but it would be even more complicated by a HUGE factor than building the type of large supercooled electromagnets which already can make humans hover (due to water in the body being diamagnetic)
No centrifuges create g-forces. The forces you feel in a centrifuge are actual g-forces.
Why do we need “authentic” g-forces to be “created”? As you’ve said, people already feel g-forces in centrifuges.
AI technically already won this debate because autonomous war drones are somewhat ubiquitous.
I doubt jets are going to have the usefulness in war that they used to.
Much more economical to have 1000 cheap drones with bombs overwhelm defenses than put your bets on one “special boi” to try and slip through with constantly defeated stealth capabilities.
But… But… Maverick?
Most human pilots use some variation of automated assist. The AI argument has less to do with “can a pilot outgun a fully automated plane?” and more “does an AI plane work in circumstances where it is forced to behave fully autonomously?”
Is the space saved with automation worth the possibility that your AI plane gets blinded or stunned and can’t make it back home?
In 2020, so-called “AI agents” defeated human pilots in simulations in all five of their match-ups - but the technology needed to be run for real in the air.
It did not reveal which aircraft won the dogfight.
I’m gonna guess the AI won.
Or it had a fatal error and crashed the plane
You think aliens are actually piloting the craft that come all this way?
You’re never gonna see an alien body because they aren’t here.
Bet we’ve got a drone or two of theirs tho.
I am very confused.
it’s ok, almost nobody else is paying attention to what really matters either
Whether aliens are visiting us matters just about as much as whether tanks are rolling into the village of uncontacted tribes.
Our tactical disadvantage against alien technology is zero, so they have zero priority as targets.
Our best bet is to make friends, converse with them. But they are obviously not interested in talking. So our only option is to pray they continue to let us exist. So far they seem to be.
Sorry, technical advantage is zero. Not disadvantage. We have zero capability to counter alien threats.
You realize that you may edit? :)
I like immutable records. If the contents of the edit were transparent (are they? in the mod log or something?), I’d have no problem with it. Like if the UI showed the final state but I had the whole log of creates and updates available to inspect like wikipedia, that would be cool
Dkarma’s comment requires context. They think aliens have visited Earth. They presume people who don’t agree with them expect that if aliens had visited Earth, some would have been shot down and alien bodies would have been recovered
I still don’t get it.
What’s that have to do with this post?
It has nothing to do with the post. I believe the post inspired dkarma to work out that brand new argument that there are no alien bodies (at area 51 probably) because the aliens would use drones
When you want to hammer alien conspiracies, everything looks like a nalien.
Upvoted exclusively for that 10/10 pun
Hahaha how the fuck is AI going to win in air-to-air combat if we completely delete them when playing Ace Combat in the highest difficulty?
Seethe, AI tech bros.
So instead of Ai vs human fight… It’s like human vs time to hack?
Yeah, time to add aimbots in the human player fighter jet to make the tech bros seethe in anger even more.
We’ll just start using airburst EMPs
I know right. Aimbots have been around for years.
Tech bros are probably patting themselves in the back for ‘inventing’ difficulty Normal++
I was actually assuming the opposite, because if the AI won they’d want to brag about it.
No way we give up that information for free. Either way it went, the knowledge of it cost a lot to gain and is useful. If it failed you want your enemy wasting money on it. If it succeeded you want your enemy not investing in it.
Bragging just means more money flowing to enemies’ research programs. When a fight is inevitable you want to appear as weak as possible to prevent your enemy from taking it seriously.
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Is a plane even the best form factor if it’s not limited by human physiology? I imagine an agile missile with smaller missiles attached to it would be better.
Manufacturing costs will probably determine whether it carries missiles, or is a missile.
That’s likely the plan, but they have to start with known-working hardware configurations first.
Only cookies youre gonna get me to voluntarily accept are oatmeal raisin, so imma have to pass
I’m not an AI expert, but I think it’s got the plane turned the wrong way around.
it’s the ground that’s upside down because it happened on the other side of the globe 😋.
Is Sharon Apple somehow involved? Can we get a list of virtual idols with suspicious behavior?
Instantly my thought too.
That’s a Macross reference?
Can’t wait until the poor people are not killed by other (but less) poor people for some rich bastards anymore but instead the mighty can command their AI’s to do the slaughter. Such an important part of evolution. I guess.
Nobody recruited to fly a $100M airplane is poor. They all come from families with the money and influence to get their kids a seat at the table as Sky Knights.
A lot of what this is going to change is the professionalism of the Air Force. Fewer John McCains crashing planes and Bush Jrs in the Texas Air National Guard. More technicians and bureaucrats managing the drone factories.
Perhaps we could develop AI proxies that could die in our stead.
I think we both know that there is no way wars are going to turn out this way. If your country’s “proxies” lose, are you just going to accept the winner’s claim to authority? Give up on democracy and just live under WHATEVER laws the winner imposes on you? Then if you resist you think the winner will just not send their drones in to suppress the resistance?
Are dogfights even still a thing?
I remember playing an F15 simulator 20 years ago where “dogfighting” already meant clicking on a radar blip 100 miles away, then doing something else while your missile killed the target.‘Dogfighting’ mostly just means air-to-air combat now. They do still make fighter jets that have guns or can mount guns, but I think they’re primarily intended for surface targets rather than air targets.
I always thought it would be a game change to have guns that could point different directions.
I honestly wouldn’t be that surprised if an AI powered fighter jet got point defence systems installed. It could react to put an incoming missile directly in the path of the point defense and possibly shoot it before it hits. With that said, I don’t know how useful it’d be. If it’s coming right at you the shrapnel is still on its way. Maybe it can react and plan in such a way to avoid it. I guess it depends on the relative speed and direction of the incoming missile.
I meant to just shoot the other plane without having to point your plane straight at them
Most dogfights are done by missiles these days. You lock on, fire, and forget. A ballistic projectile wouldn’t be useful at those ranges. I guess if AI fighter jets change progression to bring things back to close-in combat something like that may be useful. I don’t predict it’d happen, but there’s a chance. Missiles can just pack so much more thrust-per-second into a small package than a jet can, but AI jets could be a lot more agile and essentially a missile firing missile, or similar, letting them close distance better whole avoiding incoming ordinance.
Many aircraft guns do that. It’s also usually automatic, look a direction and the gun points where you look.
So turrets?
They had that back in the first world war.
Well if both sides get working stealth dogfights are going to become more common.
But the US seems to estimate it’s adversaries do not have such capability at the moment since it’s ordering new F-15s with the major change being air to air missile capacity.
Missiles also did not have 100 miles range 20 years ago. That’s without considering actually detecting and tracking the target.
Missiles also did not have 100 miles range 20 years ago.
Somewhat missing then point there I feel.
They are right, I was thinking the exact same thing when I read the headline, aircraft don’t really engage in dog fights anymore. It’s all missiles and long-range combat. I don’t think any modern war would involve aircraft shooting at each other with bullets.
No not really, my point is that people have a distorted and exaggerated view of BVR. 100 miles was beyond even the max range of common missiles and even with modern missiles like meteor it’s completely unrealistic to fire at that kind of range. Provided that you have detected and are able to track the target at that range.
I don’t know if modern planes will have to resort to guns but WVR dogfights with IR missiles are more likely than destroying F-35s at BVR ranges.
One step closer to machine domination.
Like, not even in a joking sense. Ukraine is using a ton of drones, the future of physical warfare will simply be a test resources and production.
I’m honestly not sure if this will be good or bad in the longterm. Absolutely saving any amount of human life is a good thing, but when that is no longer a significant factor, I wonder if we will go to (and stay at) war for more trivial reasons.
I’m hoping that the sheer cost of executing that sort of war will continue to be a prohibiting factor like it is today
We all know how this ends:
A bunch of old people bomb the box office?
Hey, it was an okay movie for it’s time.
OK is giving it high praise
“Luck is one of my skills” when it turns out this entire thing is a terrible idea for the date of humanity.
Skynet will be proud of them.
