Why YSK: Beehaw defederated from Lemmy.World and Sh.itjust.works effectively shadowbanning anyone from those instances. You will not be able to interact with their users or posts.
Edit: A lot of people are asking why Beehaw did this. I want to keep this post informational and not color it with my personal opinion. I am adding a link to the Beehaw announcement if you are interested in reading it, you can form your own views. https://beehaw.org/post/567170
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Aren’t you only “shadow banned” from users of that instance? Wouldn’t folks federated with your instance still see your comments?
My understanding is that Lemmy isn’t peer-to-peer, it’s more like hub-and-spoke, relative to the instance that the community is on.
So if users on B and C are interacting with a post on A, then it’s the responsibility of A to be the postman and handle the syncing between A<>B and A<>C; B and C don’t directly talk in this case.
Thus, nobody outside of Lemmyworld sees posts from Lemmyworld, because Beehaw doesn’t accept them, and therefore doesn’t pass them along to the other instances, either.
I recommend reading this post on lemmy.world for a very clear understanding of how the defederation affects these instances: https://lemmy.world/post/149743
Pretty sure that’s right.
That’s confusing. Let’s say that there is antance A, B and C. (Instance A is Beehaw) Now let’s say A bans C, but not B. And B hasn’t banned anyone. That would mean instance A would still see the comments of C, when replying to B, right? If so, people from Instance A would feel like they are being gaslit more then people blocked from instance C.
But can C see A through B?
My understanding is that Lemmy isn’t peer-to-peer, it’s more like hub-and-spoke, relative to the instance that the community is on.
So if users on B and C are interacting with a post on A, then it’s the responsibility of A to be the postman and handle the syncing between A<>B and A<>C; B and C don’t directly talk in this case.
Thus, nobody outside of Lemmyworld sees posts from Lemmyworld, because Beehaw doesn’t accept them, and therefore doesn’t pass them along to the other instances, either.
Doesn’t ‘gaslit’ mean convincing someone they’re making things up? Or is that all in my head?
Gaslighting is convincing someone that they perceived or remembered things incorrectly. That’s a very specific kind of manipulation.
Why do people use it to mean bullshitting in general?
Like most buzzwords, gaslight has lost its meaning.
Gone the way of ‘reboot’ huh? I blame the media trying to cram the trendy terms in wherever they can.
Gaslighting doesn’t exist, you made it up
Oh it definitely exists. Ask anyone who has experienced living/working/dealing with a narcissist.
I think they were joking…
Lmao. Well, woosh!
I guess I’ve just had too many real arguments with people on reddit about this and this comment flew right past me. :D
My understanding is that Lemmy isn’t peer-to-peer, it’s more like hub-and-spoke, relative to the instance that the community is on.
So if users on B and C are interacting with a post on A, then it’s the responsibility of A to be the postman and handle the syncing between A<>B and A<>C; B and C don’t directly talk in this case.
Thus, nobody outside of Lemmyworld sees posts from Lemmyworld made on Beehaw communities, because Beehaw doesn’t accept them, and therefore doesn’t pass them along to the other instances, either.
So let’s say A is Beehaw and C is Lemmy.world and B is a hypothetical instance that Beehaw and Lemmy.world approve. How does that work?
Does it just clip off viewability of the comments for A if a post from C is made?
Trying to understand your comment it sounds like your saying if A bans C, then no on other than C can view their comments?
Not quite. So imagine each Lemmy instance is a post office, responsible for receiving mail from other instances on your behalf, and also responsible for sending your mail to other instances.
The post office (instance) that matters is the one where the thread is taking place. When you write a message on a thread - if the thread is on your home instance, great! No outbound mail. If it’s not, your post office (instance) will send your mail across the fediverse to the instance where the thread actually lives, and the receiving instance adds it to the thread.
Likewise, when users reply to you, their instances mail their replies to the instance where the thread lives; the thread’s instance is then responsible for re-forwarding their mail to you.
In this case, Beehaw has unilaterally decided not to accept mail from, or deliver mail to, Lemmyworld. So your experience varies based on which is your home instance, and which instance you’re interacting with.
So exploring it by example, let’s consider we have three instances: Beehaw, Lemmy.world, and (shameless plug) my adorable little home instance of federate.cc, which is federated with both of the above (and is accepting membership applications by the way!)
If the thread lives on Beehaw, and you are a member of…
- Beehaw, then you can interact with the post (it’s your home instance), but you won’t see any replies from Lemmyworld users (your post office is refusing to accept letters from them)
- Lemmyworld, you probably won’t be able to see the thread at all (Beehaw refused to deliver it to their post office) - but if by some chance you can, you won’t see any comments by Beehaw users (Beehaw refuses to deliver them to the Lemmyworld post office)
- federate.cc, then you will be able to interact with the post (Beehaw delivers mail to our post office), but you won’t see any replies from Lemmyworld users (Beehaw refuses to accept mail from Lemmyworld users, and by extension refuses to deliver their mail to our post office)
If the thread lives on Lemmyworld, and you are a member of…
- Beehaw, you probably won’t be able to see the thread at all (Beehaw refused to accept the mail from Lemmyworld, returning it to sender) - but if by some chance you can, you won’t see any comments by Lemmyworld users (Beehaw refuses to accept mail from Lemmyworld, returning it to sender)
- Lemmyworld, then you can interact with the post (it’s your home instance), but you won’t see any replies from Beehaw users (their post office refuses to deliver letters to yours)
- federate.cc, then you will be able to interact with the post, but you probably won’t see any replies from Beehaw users (Beehaw’s post office refuses to deliver mail addressed to Lemmyworld)
If the thread lives on federate.cc, and you are a member of…
- Beehaw, you will be able to see and interact with the thread, since Beehaw’s post office both sends and receives mail from federate.cc; but you won’t see any messages from Lemmyworld users, because Beehaw’s post office will refuse mail that originated at Lemmyworld; when we try to forward that mail to Beehaw’s post office, it will be refused and returned to sender.
- Lemmyworld, you will be able to see and interact with the thread, since Lemmyworld’s post office both sends and receives mail from federate.cc; you will see messages from Beehaw users, because Beehaw’s post office will deliver mail to ours; but if you interact with them at all, they will never see it, because Beehaw will reject mail that originated at Lemmyworld (see above).
- federate.cc, then you will be able to interact with the post as normal, you will see replies from people at all three instances, and they will see yours
Phew! How confusing. A far better solution would be… don’t defederate, splitting the community!
Newbie here. Is there an easy way to identify a beehaw community? I’ve been hitting the subscribe button left and right to build up my profile feed and I’m just winging it here. thanx!
The community name will end in “@beehaw”.
If you go to the community search bar and search for say, “gaming” you’ll get multiple results. The one that’s just “gaming” is your home instance, any with an “@instancename” behind them are from elsewhere.
Also their icons are pretty recognizable, I think they are all yellow honeycombs.
okay, that makes it easy. Thanx for replying!
If you are using an app remember to turn on the option to see instance names right next to the poster’s username.
Is there a gaming community? I found one on Beehaw, but don’t know if it will work fully
Yes. I recommend you look here.
You can search for communities!
@[email protected] , you should add a link to the announcement which explains why Beehaw defederated since this looks to be the top question many are asking.
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Mod work in general is going to be a tough issue for everyone to solve. Different places will have different norms they want to enforce, and a limited volunteer staff to push that agenda. But there’s nothing that can’t be automated. Automate the creation of AI mods, automate the selection of user mods, automate the banning of objectionable comments and users using a combination of both humans and AI to both handle the workload and adhere to community regulations. If these tools can be developed as part of lemmy, automated moderation can become an available option for all instances, which hopefully will mean that moderation here will be better quality and lower cost than moderation on that other social media site, I’m forgetting the name.
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You may find that we really like safe spaces on Lemmy.
I like safe time, but that’s much harder to come by.
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tldr; too hard to mod. That’s pretty dumb, but the cool thing with the fedi is you can just not care and swap instances.
Those are good points. Time to find a different instance. My account is not precious. Supporting a sustainable growth is.
The slowness of Lemmy.world to defederate from the fascists, and now this makes me feel I can find a better home. A home that is a better partner to the fediverse.
I will be curious to learn what works best for you.
Probably a smaller server. I need to do some more research. Lemmy.world one of the highlighted big servers when I joined during one of the waves from Reddit. I am sure there are plenty better smaller /mid-size server LD, I could join instead.
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Finally a good YSK
This is how you know we left Reddit
Why?
At the time LW and SJW had few barriers to signing up, so they had a higher rate of spam coming in and the beehaw team said they couldn’t keep up with moderating it. No idea if this is still the case, but they remain federated.
Oh no, are we calling shitjustworks SJW now??
I thought about that while typing it but I thought it was kinda funny so decided to leave it haha
I wonder if that was intentional on the instance owner’s part?
Nah definitely not. I don’t know about the owner but there was definitely too much “debate” on whether to defederate from exploding heads for my liking, felt a little too “free speech-y” so I set up on lemmy.world instead
We need to replace dumb acronyms with better ones, anyway.
Maybe SHJUWO or SHIJUWO
SJW is a wild abbreviation
Anyone knows why this happened ? Hope admins dont ruin Lemmy for everyone.
Just a heads up, we love our admins around here, they are great. Beehaw defederated from people because they were afraid of being able to mod everything with the influx of users with limited mod tools available. They will likely refederate eventually. For now I unsubbed from all beehaw communities and dont miss anything. The cool thing is if you do end up on an instance with admins you don’t like, there are like 10,000 other instances you can go to.
But the admins here are usually pretty transparent with everything going on. They are just some dude with a server in their closet. Not some cooperation that are making decisions with profit in mind. They are doing it for the community.
From what I understand, admins here are literally paying out of pocket AND volunteering their time to host us. Just as when I invite my friends over to my house for a BBQ, if one of them brings a friend that starts shitting in my pool, I tell them to GTFO and probably stop hosting BBQs for a while even though my friends who DIDN’T shit in my pool still end up suffering the consequences.
Thanks, current Fediverse admins!
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When there was an influx of users during the Reddit blackout, they said that they were getting lots of trolls and they couldn’t keep up with the moderation. Lemmy.world and Sh.itjust.works had the most traffic and were letting people sign up without vetting so the Beehaw admins decided to defederate those communities.
Making it harder for people to sign up and interact with each other, during the most important week of the platform’s existence, I hope they didn’t take that lightly
So I don’t understand your mentality here. What do the people hosting servers as a hobby owe former R3dd!t users to make their migration easier??? Seems entitled to think people who are literally paying out of their own pockets right now for people like us to talk to each other owe us even more. Geez.
The person you responded to said nothing about being “owed” anything.
What do you think their point was, then? 🤔
That the defederation was a significant action?
I guess that’s where our opinions differ. Seems like it should be just a blip when someone wants to take their ball and go home. Just choose another ball, man.
That’s a hard action. Hopefully its temporary.
Yep, they said they intend to federate again once they have access to better tools to help with the bots and stuff. Hopefully with the new influx of tons of people, that will also mean more people working on tools and apps to improve things.
Beehaw has plans to refederate with sh.itjust.works, but no word in lemmy.world.
But since sh.itjust.works is federated with lemmy.world, if beehaw refederate with sh.itjust.works then lemmy world users will be able to interact with beehaw, (via sh.itjust.works) correct?
No, nothing would change in regard to lemmy.world until they refederate with it as well.
But since sh.itjust.works is federated with lemmy.world, if beehaw refederate with sh.itjust.works then lemmy world users will be able to interact with beehaw, (via sh.itjust.works) correct?
No, it’s not transitive, it’s like lemmy.world is blacklisted.
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No, Beehaw it’s already Federated with a lot of other instances that are Federated with lemmy.World.
Thanks
Just a heads up, we love our admins around here, they are great. Beehaw defederated from people because they were afraid of being able to mod everything with the influx of users with limited mod tools available. They will likely refederate eventually. For now I unsubbed from all beehaw communities and dont miss anything. The cool thing is if you do end up on an instance with admins you don’t like, there are like 10,000 other instances you can go to.
But the admins here are usually pretty transparent with everything going on. They are just some dude with a server in their closet. Not some cooperation that are making decisions with profit in mind. They are doing it for the community.
Do you have any insight why did they do that?
Beehaw has sign up requirements to curate the type of community they are. These other instances do not, allowing anybody.
Since any account can be used for in any instance still federated with the instance they made their account on, Beehaw was upset that their curated community was being interrupted by troves of unregulated members of the large, general servers. The tools for moderating Lemmy are also still in their infancy, so the Beehaw moderators were finding it harder to do their jobs.
So they defederated for the time being.
Communities need ways of adding restrictions to posting. Some reddit communities used stuff like Karma counts to prevent bots from joining or even account ages. Eventually bots and spammers found ways around it such karma farming using reposts or using tools like chatGPT to generate post topics that might trick legitimate posters to upvote…
I don’t know of a foolproof way to prevent all spammers, but some kind of tooling is needed to help moderate communities and filter out obvious spammers and trolls
It was due to their (our) open admission policy.
They wanted a more curated experience, and we’re concerned that our instances would be full of trolls and bots
Honestly that strikes me as perfectly reasonable of Beehaw.
Maybe a little kneejerk to de-federate preemptively, but given their stated moderation goals I totally get it.
Yeah, where’s !/c/lemmydrama?
Drama only exists when people aren’t kind to each other. So, no thanks?
Why does Lemmy make it look harder than it is? It’s not a massive load compared to what modern servers and applications are designed to handle.
I couldn’t sign up on beehaw and lemmy.ml after multiple tries. It feels worse than a simple centralised platform one can build in a month.
Is there alternative to reddit for people like me who don’t need this kind of decentralisation (Lemmy feels like centralisation, just multiple number of it, if any instance can cut off like this.) but likes the (text heavy)interface of Lemmy?
just ignore the fed aspect? it doesn’t really impact user experience at all.
Good point but the community I like may be on another instance which would prevent similar community to grown elsewhere. If I get invested in it I run the risk of losing access to it.
That’s like, the opposite of how it works
Unfortunately, they all seem to have died to the “Nazi bar” problem or other issues. A centralised Lemmy variant would likely either lurch to the extreme right, or be rapidly pumped for profit, like Reddit is doing.
One of the advantages of federation is the ability to disconnect groups that won’t mix well. This has already happened with Lemmy. Both extreme right wing (Nazi) and left wing (communist) groups have been de-federated. They are allowed to continue happily, just away from the bulk of users. The fragmented nature also allows for server cost, and workloads to be distributed.
Additionally, Lemmy wasn’t quite ready for the mainstream when Reddit decided to sh#t the bed. I’ve watched it improve impressively, over the last few weeks though. Once it streamlines, it should hopefully provide all of us our fix.
What are some of the far left groups?
Sorry for the slow reply, apparently I don’t get notifications of messages through the app I’m currently using.
The left wing group of note is Lemmygrad. It was de-federated from lemmy.world before I joined, apparently by mutual agreement. It’s basically a communist haven. Server updates have made it appear for a while, and them seem a lot more friendly than the far right equivalent groups.
I look at them akin to nudists. They have every right to their own space. At the same time, they happily understand that it’s socially inappropriate to hold their meetings outside the local school.
Kbin.social. it’s part of the system with a much better UI. I could sign in right away and there’s very little unfederated
I want to like kbin.social but the mobile website’s UI isn’t there yet. It’s unintuitive and frustrating at times, I can’t find logout button for instance.
this is completely reasonable, they own the instance and should be able to do whatever they want with it.
OP didn’t say it was wrong. Just a tip.
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Well this didn’t take long to start spiraling
Well this didn’t take long to start spiraling
Right!! They made it seem like it was open but they have drama too. lol
Nice. Its been just 2 days for me using lemmy and im already banned for no reason in an entire server that i do not use just because im in another server. I whana say reddit moment but im getting mixed info into their reasoning. Some say its because they cant mod that much people and just defederated temporarilly while they fix stuff and others say their a radical echochamber that doesnt tolerate any slight deviants. So i dont know what to believe. If any of ya m8s could enligthen me some more that’l be sweet. Thank you.
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Im sorry m8, i dont whana be an ass but… i dont understeand what you are trying to say in this part:" Until users are happy at 1984 instance (beehaw is even worst) that’s okay," what did you mean?
Q
Most normal users won’t care about any of this because it’ll shake itself out quickly as has happened with Mastodon. But if you do care, join up with a smaller server that plays nice with everybody and enjoy the whole fediverse.
this, then :
Selfhosting
Also: multiple accounts.
Also: multiple accounts.
Last I checked, their reason for defederating is to avoid the high influx of new wildcard users from large instances without vetting processes.
As for the radical echo chamber part, I can’t say for sure because I didn’t actually interact with them but I recall the term they make you agree to apply for an account was somewhat vague, possibly allowing arbitrary bans to enforce an echo chamber.
They pretend to defend their users from ‘bad’ instances. Until users are happy at 1984 instance (beehaw is even worst) that’s okay, otherwise there are still options to register at some normal instance, which let users decide themselves what they should see or not.
It has nothing to do with defending their users and they never even fucking claimed that was what it was about. You are making shit up to be mad about, JFC.
