What’s your evidence, Richard Easton??!?
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Note that this frequency hopping is no longer used in most WiFi networks today. It is, however, critical to classic Bluetooth, and BLE still somewhat uses it. I have no idea how it’s related to GPS.
Frequency hopping in wifi was never well supported. 802.11a was primarily DSSS and afaik, very few, if any consumer devices supported the FHSS mode.
Indeed. Just speaking from a signals point of view, frequency hopping is not competitive for high bandwidth applications. It is however surprisingly durable in the presence of interference despite its simplicity. We’re seeing this play out in newer Bluetooth standards.
Isn’t it still extensively used for RC stuff like drones and model aeroplanes / cars though? Asking as an amateur.
Yes. It works well because this is an application that requires low bandwidth, and interference could cause you to lose control and is even expected with multiple operators in the vicinity. You definitely want to have resilience to other interfering signals.
It very much is! It’s widely touted as a safety feature, since interference on one frequency means you wont lose control of the flying blender for more than a few milliseconds (well, usually…)
Time splitting is just lazy frequency hopping, change my mind
Can two devices transmit at exactly the same time with time splitting?
From a human perspective, yes, that’s exactly what it does
If you want to get pedantic about the technical details, it’s not time splitting if you’re not splitting the time…
Technically speaking, isn’t differentiating between any two things pedantic? For example the moon, and chocolate, both are things. If you don’t want to get pedantic about it.
What I mean is if you don’t slice time into slots, you’re not using time slicing. It doesn’t make sense to talk about time slicing at all anymore
Two devices can transmit at the same time with all sorts of setups, even on the same frequency. And it’s not inaccurate to describe time slicing as “a method to allow multiple devices to transmit and receive simultaneously”
The question isn’t valid. Being truly pedantic would be pointing out that any number of devices can transmit at the same time, you didn’t say the messages would be received
Wifi doesn’t use frequency hopping. That’s bluetooth.
https://www.ieee802.org/11/Documents/DocumentArchives/1996_docs/1196049D_scan.pdf
Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum PHY of the 802.11 Wireless LAN Standard
Edit: [email protected] is correct. FHSS was quickly dropped for DSSS and OFDM, and FHSS is not used in any modern WiFi specs. You can see the list in table 7.6 here https://www.pearsonitcertification.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1329709&seqNum=4
But that’s not part of 802.11n or 802.11g or “a” or what we call “Wifi”… 802.11 in itself is a pretty long standard, including all kinds of different things.
It actually is. The original standard published by the IEEE 802.11 group was 802.11, often referred to as 802.11 prime.
To put it simply, it was little more than a proof of concept. The only wireless cards that I know were made at that time, were very expensive and only purchased in very limited amounts by large corporations. Quickly afterwards it was replaced by 802.11a and 802.11b. the big difference between the two, was that b used 2.4ghz and could achieve 11mbps, while a used 5Ghz, and could achieve 54mbps.
Meanwhile prime was on 900mhz and if memory serves, never achieved more than a few Mbps.
802.11b was more popular because 2.4ghz was easier to make inexpensively at the time, and so 802.11g also used 2.4ghz, but was able to increase bandwidth by using OFDM. But now I’m off topic, I just find wireless history very interesting.
The point is 802.11 (prime) was a valid wireless standard.
but still, without frequency hopping no 802.11, without 802.11 no wifi
I am not literally a part of my kids, but they wouldn’t be here without me.
It may be dropped, but it was used in the beginning
Wouldn’t that not still make her the mother of Wifi?
Hehehe, you can call her the mother of early 802.11 and Bluetooth.
For the Bluetooth development, the developers of the technology didn’t know about her patent until their IP department was about to file for a patent. They added this patent to the list and then they got connected. As is the case with many, patent and patent connections. It’s a quite common way of how patents are connected, and part of the IP industry. R&D people come up with an idea, these people don’t read tons of patents but solve issues in an intuitive way. Then IP lawers dig into existing patents and make the legal connections.
that’s not how it works. edit: others pointed it out already it seems. you would still call the inventor of a first car the father lf cars even though it has nothing to do with modern cars
edit2: but considering that she didn’t really invent wifi, just frequency hopping, I would maybe call her grandmother or something
Yeah, I think I get it. I mean the analogy is a bit flawed. What she invented is that alike synchronizing the rolls of player pianos, you could build a mechanism that hops frequencies (instead of piano keys) to make remote controlling torpedos resilient against jamming.
Idk. To me it feels like calling the inventor of three-wheeled vehicles the father/mother of cars, if we want to stay with that analogy. It’s remotely related, not an integral part and nowadays solved differently. But the first car was a tricycle. (Benz Patent-Motorwagen)
But I don’t want to invalidate her achievements either… It’s one (important) contribution to technology. And it’s not always that one single person invents the whole concept of a radio. Or a car. And get’s to be the whole parent of it. Things build upon each other. Sometimes it needs a lot of contributions of several individuals to make something possible… Nowadays more so than in the old times.
She didn’t invent frequency hopping, Nicola Tesla did. She invented a system that used a piano roll (from a player piano) to alternate frequencies. Also she shared the patent with another person.
Or rather she was part of a team, with her husband and one more, that patented that idea, never really got it to work in real torpedos, and the technology was forgotten until someone referred to it in a later patent. Then her role as background got expanded to take the role of other more influential women, maybe because she had a nicer picture.
Just chiming in as a network tech that deals with these terms regularly.
802.11, sometimes called 802.11 prime, to differentiate the first protocol from the 802.11 (WiFi) group. This protocol was not really every in widespread use. A few early niche cases, but it was quickly supplanted by 802.11a and 802.11b.
The b standard was one of the first major WiFi versions to see adoption, which used DSSS, or direct sequence spread spectrum. Which fell by the wayside because OFDM was faster and more efficient, which led wifi speed increases from 802.11g, through wifi 4 (802.11n), WiFi 5 (802.11ac), and WiFi 6 (802.11ax). The more recent versions use QAM (wireless N+), which augments OFDM with amplitude modulation.
Beyond QAM, speed improvements at this point are minimal and usually require wider channel widths to get any significant improvement, so 802.11 has focused on multiple access improvements and since 802.11ac, have been making improvements to MIMO. They started with SU-MIMO, then one-way MU-MIMO, then two way MU-MIMO.
I haven’t read up on the changes in WiFi 7 yet beyond 6Ghz being added. I’ll look into it after it’s been fully ratified.
Long story short, they moved to 5Ghz and eventually 6Ghz, because there isn’t enough channel width in 2.4 for WiFi 5, and 5ghz was getting a bit difficult to sustain for the speed they’re trying to hit, so 6Ghz is the next logical step.
This is 1874! You’ll be able to sue HER!
That’s an incredibly sensationalistic way to put it. By that logic, the ancient greeks are the forefathers of WiFi, because they figured how to create static electricity using cotton and ambar.
You can (and should) give credit without overstating their achievement.
Wrong.
So well thought out, you truly must’ve spent a long time sitting on that one.
the ancient greeks developed more of wifi than u is for sure <3
I don’t know who this guy is. Did he do something to Lamarr?
He’s the guy in the comment asking for evidence. Which I don’t think is wrong, but it seems like he could’ve done some research and they could’ve posted a link for anyone who wanted to know more
plus he literally tried to snotnose the official twitter of the US Cyber Command posting something that is deeply within their field in their offical capacity for women’s history month. It does rather present him as acting in bad faith
It’s the 21st Century now. There is no authoritive source of information, they should’ve added a link to back themselves up. Looking through Wikipedia, calling her the “Mother of WiFi” is a bit rich when there were probably other women more directly involved in WiFi who are more deserving of that title. But she is just the character required to appease the Twitter mob for another day
She invented the foundation of the technology
We call Alan Turing the father of modern computing, because he invented the foundation of the technology
Women more directly involved wouldn’t be the “mother” of the technology, they would be the “creator”
It’s very loose terminology. We call Oppenheimer the father of the atomic bomb when Einstein, etc laid the foundation for the technology. It’s a stupid thing to be arguing about
Einstein didn’t lay the foundation for the technology, he laid the foundation for the standard model. We call him the father of modern physics. He made the math work, the bomb was already being developed by the Germans. He didn’t come up with the idea, he didn’t come up with the technology, he just consulted.
Oppenheimer built and led the team that built the bomb. The theories weren’t complete, the technology didn’t exist, no one had laid out an equation that enabled the technology - they did all that in the Manhattan project.
Every person called the father or mother of <field of science> is a hero, in both the literary and personal sense. They represent looking at something in a new way - their name is an embodiment of a certain way of thinking.
You took a shot at that for no reason
Fire up the ROFL-copter, we got a live one.
There is a great documentary about her on Netflix. It covers her love of science and her attempts to get her design to the military for the war effort.
Seems there’s more than one. Take your pick
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hedy+lamar+patent+documentary
First thing i thought of too lol
Too bad she didn’t get the joke
This is 1874. You’ll be able to sue her!
Blue check…
much verified
This is mostly wrong: while she did invent what would later be called Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum (FHSS), it isn’t used in modern WiFi or in GPS. It is used in Bluetooth though.
I should point out that techniques like FHSS are only a part of what makes up a radio communication method. You can’t say it was “the basis of Bluetooth” just because FHSS is one of the many technologies used in Bluetooth. She certainly contributed though.
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It was hardly ever used in WiFi. Two spread spectrum schemes were available in the original WiFi spec, FHSS and DSSS. DSSS was always preferred over FHSS and in practice FHSS was hardly used and eventually obsoleted a decade ago due to lack of use. It was never “the basis” of WiFi as claimed in the meme - that’s simply incorrect.
Don’t get me wrong. FHSS is cool and it’s a great achievement. It just has little bearing on WiFi and absolutely no relationship to GPS.
Better examples of FHSS would be Bluetooth (which you already mentioned), cordless phones, R/C toys and some military communications.
fair, rescinded.
you did put a false quote in your top comment tho. thats my main issue: “invented bluetooth/wifi” was nowhere in the original post. that’s a straw position you constructed yourself then took down easily because obviously it’s not true.
Fair enough. I’ll fix that.
You got me curious, is that true across all the different options for wifi such as 802.11b and a?
Yes, it’s been obsoleted in wifi since 2014. DSSS was always the preferred option and FHSS was never used much in WiFi.
So she’s the reason Apple removed the headphone jack?
She took on where Heinrich Hertz left off, and made it to the top of the Tinseltown heap!
C’mon… you know you wanna see a musical on the life of Heinrich Hertz.Considering the man spent over a year working in a blacked-out room, trying to detect the faint spark of electricity transmitted wirelessly, it’s gonna have a song or three about fumbling or stumbling in the dark.
Considering the man spent over a year working in a blacked-out room, trying to detect the faint spark of electricity transmitted wirelessly, it’s gonna have a song or three about fumbling or stumbling in the dark.
Bruce Springsteen has you covered with “Dancing in the Dark”.
To be fair, I’d be skeptical if you told me Andy Griffith was the father of 3D printing.
Though I’d google it instead of asking for evidence first.
Calling Hedy Lamarr “the Mother of Wifi” because she invented FHSS is like calling E. A. Johnson, who invented the first capacitive touchscreen in 1965, “the Father of the iPhone”.
Capacitive touchscreens are the essential technology not just in the iPhone but in all smartphones. Without them we’d still be using flip phones and BlackBerry chiclet keyboards. I think it’s fair to call Johnson the father of the smartphone!
How about father of the touch screen? There’s a fuck ton of technology in smartphones.
There is, but most of that technology was in phones and other devices before smartphones came along.
And touch screens were in devices other than smart phones before smart phones came along.
So again, father of the touchscreen, sure. But he did not make smartphones happen. He has nothing to do with 99% of the technology in smartphones.
He invented the capacitive touch screen. The resistive touch screen was in many devices long before smart phones (bank machines being a common example). The resistive touch screen was fine for those applications but it was useless for the smart phone (too slow to respond). The capacitive touch screen’s first killer app was the smartphone, namely the iPhone.
Sure, but the touchscreen is arguably the thing that defines a smartphone. It is the part you interact with and the only part the user really sees.
We had phones before capable of surfing the web and taking and editing pictures. Like Blackberry. But those aren’t really seen as smartphones, more like slightly smarter dumbphones.
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Father/mother of computers, the person who first controlled fire.
i’m pretty comfortable with calling him that. capacitive touchscreens are a big deal sounds like he deserves the praise.
Shout out also to John Underkoffler who was the technical advisor on Minority Report (and later Iron Man). The gesture controls in that movie heavily inspired the first smartphones.
this is crazy cool info, do you have further reading?
He did a TED talk in 2010 and there are several articles about him. Not much news in recent years, I guess he wasn’t very succesful in turning his motion control concept into a viable product. I interviewed him about eight years ago.
Capacitive touchscreens are a big deal but it kind of minimizes the work of the other technology that goes into a smartphone, like wireless internet, low power mobile CPUs capable of 3D graphics, lithium-ion battery packs, etc., to say nothing of the design engineers that worked on the exterior, the hardware, and the operating system and deserve credit for the iPhone way more than he does. Crediting the holder of a patent from over 40 years before the iPhone hit the market with the creation of the iPhone is stretching the truth at best.
children generally are able to have multiple parents.
if i give credit to Alice for being Bobby’s mother, i’m not minimizing the parenthood of any of Bobby’s other parents. just giving credit where due.
i would not hesitate to give a couple dozen people the title of father/mother/parent of the iPhone. seems quite appropriate and fair.
You could always call him “the father of the capacitive touchscreen”.
Would that make him the grandfather of smartphones?
that’s what the word “inventor” is for
That’s “Hedley.”
HARUMPH!
I can’t believe I had to scroll down this far to see a Blazing Saddles reference.
What are you worried about? This is 1874…you’ll be able to sue her.
This is 1874…you’ll be able to sue her.
By fax!
This post is inaccurate. Neither WiFi nor GPS use FHSS, nor is Lamarr anything close to singularly credited with FHSS’ invention (the earliest patent is credited to Nikola Tesla). This also implies that the Allies used her parent - they did not.
Also Richard Easton is the son of the man who invented GPS and had every right to be skeptical of this claim, and it looks like Internet dipsh*ts have bullied him into deleting his twitter account over this.
The internet truly is a wonderful place, is it not?
Eh, i saw easton’s twitter before deletion, he was rather full of himself and prone to being pompously challenging without cause.
Also his father doesn’t mean shit, i’m the kid of a master printer, buggered if i know anything about ink
I think it’s pretty reasonable to be proud of your family for their accomplishments. And annoyed that someone else would take credit for them.
No one’s ‘taking’ credit, others are ascribing credit. For technological concepts that were foundational, if no longer used. It’s like cracking the shits at someone mentioning the hominid that came up with knapping a stone because your dad made scalpels.
Yeah you’re correct I misspoke there. I’m not an expert but others are suggesting her invention wasn’t used in GPS at all, which the guy’s dad is credited with inventing. If that’s true that’s still a little weird, of course I don’t have a problem with her getting credit for anything she invented. I certainly haven’t invented anything
Wikipedia link for Easton (and Parkinson) credit for GPS: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#:~:text=Bradford Parkinson%2C professor of aeronautics,with the rank of colonel.
Ee times article referencing FHSS and Nikola Tesla:
