cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/15089465
Americans Are Open To Cheap Chinese Cars. That’s ‘Scary’ For The Rest Of The Auto Industry
I feel like a lot people on Lemmy, and people in left-leaning spaces in general, kind of have a blind spot on this one. People get that buying local is good, but not buying American.
It matters where your money goes. People complain about the soullessness of modern American life, and how hard it is to find a good job, and how democracies are backsliding around the globe, and then they buy things from China that are cheaply made and, at most, slightly better value in the long run.
This isn’t me trying to be nationalist or xenophobic but whenever anyone (including me because there’s no way to completely avoid it nowadays) buys Chinese goods you are supporting a government that is aggressively un-democratic, that actively supports Russia, and also has basically zero labor laws and an absolutely enormous wealth gap between the ruling class and the working class.
And yeah I get a lot of Americans are hurting right now due to inflation but the solution isn’t to send money overseas. The best thing you can do for your neighbor is buy union and buy American.
Voting with your dollar is a myth (it’s a myth that workers have any vote, not that the dollar controls the imperial core). China offering a viable alternative to not being able to afford cars because companies have arbitrarily inflated prices is great. Arbitrarily spending a lot more money that will mostly go to shareholders in the US is not going to help the worker
Voting with your dollar is a myth? So if the IDF (or ISIS, if you prefer) drops an amazing new EV for $10k, with all money going straight to weapons procurement, you’d buy it?
Very much a strawman argument. China can offer cheap electric cars because they aren’t paying american car company CEOs. Also, your argument supposes that American manufacturers aren’t supporting IDF…
The IDF? No. China? Absolutely!
basically zero labor laws
You have no idea what you’re talking about, like at all. Even shitty Wikipedia says they do.
Yes, let’s try to pick apart the one hyperbolic statement he made and completely ignore all of his other valid points. Let’s also link a very biased article about Wikipedia that has absolutely nothing to do with anything as some sort of proof that China is some bastion for workers rights. It’s not like they literally force people into labor camps simply for being minorities or anything.
The US is far from perfect but let’s not pretend they somehow have worse labor rights than freaking China.
Their labor conditions are significantly worse than modern American work conditions let’s not kid ourselves. Although this never bothers people when it comes to goods made in Mexico.
also has basically zero labor laws and an absolutely enormous wealth gap between the ruling class and the working class.
Article 17(2) of the Revised Company Law now stipulates that the assembly of employee representatives shall be the basic form of the democratic corporate governance system and that this shall apply to all companies. That means, regardless of whether a company is private or state-owned, whether it is a limited liability or a stock corporation. This is a notable development, as democratic corporate governance as a requirement for all companies is set out in national law for the first time.
An Employee Assembly shall be convened at least once a year, and more than two-thirds of the employee representatives must be present at the plenary session of an Employee Assembly. Elections and votes on relevant matters at an Employee Assembly require a majority of all employee representatives.
Buying local/national is fine when the quality is there. But I’m not putting my face into a grinder just to bail out American corporations.
“Buying American” would be exporting money for me, and there’s no domestic car manufacturing anymore. So I’m sending money overseas no matter what I buy, and it’s probably all made in China anyway… :P
Lemmy:
Go UAW, fight for higher wages and better working conditions
Also Lemmy:
I demand the cheapest car possible, I don’t care if its built by slave labor in xinjiang. If western companies can’t compete with third world labor costs then they’re obviously inefficient and don’t deserve to exist.
My worries are not that they can’t compete, it’s that they won’t even attempt to.
They managed to survive the Japanese/Korean car invasions (with some help). They will certainly try with China although it’s trickier for a lot of reasons.
It’s the same thing the right does with government. It is a truism that there is all sorts of “inefficiencies” where the money is going to the wrong people for the wrong stuff.
In both cases, it’s sort of correct and sort of wrong. Corporations, governments, and any human institution beyond a certain scale (a few hundred people), will leak wealth into places it shouldn’t. It’s an unavoidable feature of our species as best I can tell.
It’s fine to accept it, it’s fine to be angry about it. It’s silly to blind yourself to it in some places and whinge about it in others.
Now look at how much the executives are being paid in the US compared to the cost of the vehicles…
It ain’t the welders and wrench turners who are adding the most to the cost of vehicles.
As opposed to China where there totally isn’t a massive wealth gap between factory workers and their executives! Not like the CEO of Xpeng is worth 1.4 billion or anything…
It’s true, China Has Billionaires.
Income inequality rhetoric ignores that a class can reap the benefits of work via public investment (e.g. a bullet train), even if bosses make more as individuals. Working Chinese people are seeing the fruits of their labour despite billionaires and inequality. To recriminate them for not demanding more is recriminating the virtue of patience.
In fact, much of what passes for “socialist” idealism in the West turns out to be a mirror image of bog-standard liberal-capitalist entrepreneurship propaganda: “I will be my own boss! I will run my own business!” This idealism appears unaware that the necessity of management is foisted upon us by logistics, not capitalism. Denial of this reality results in fantasies of perfect synchrony between perfectly autonomous anarchists.
The “Fully Automated Luxury Communism” dream, embraced more by pundits with cushy lives than working people, also reveals a dark truth: western “socialists” have some awareness that a more equal world will mean losing first-world privileges. They cannot conceive of things getting better steadily and slowly, with hard work. And so they are forced to denigrate the Chinese road of self-sacrifice in favour of leisure-driven utopianism. The reality is that the victory of the working class over the capitalist class will usher in an era of hard but rewarding work, as opposed to hard work without reward.
United Nations, 2019: Helping 800 Million People Escape Poverty Was Greatest Such Effort in History, Says Secretary-General, on Seventieth Anniversary of China’s Founding
Sure man, I guess the nets on the sides of the factory buildings are there to catch workers who are jumping with joy because their work is so rewarding.
I don’t deny that China’s economic ascendancy has been remarkable and a big win against poverty, but now that people have gotten past the starvation phase, I don’t think you can use the “high tide raises all boats” analogy. It sounds a lot like tricke-down economics to me, with some hand-waving that things are different in China because the wealthy elites are actually generous patricians.
slave labor in xinjiang
Oh no the CIA-backed terrorists got job training, the horror. https://lemmy.ml/comment/8175413
The actual slave labor is in the United States, thanks to the 13th amendment.
If the price of labor was what determined the price, then why have prices gone up, when labor prices have not?
Car prices haven’t gone up, the average purchase prices of cars has gone up but that’s because people are buying more expensive cars, Large trucks, SUVs, luxury sedans, higher trims etc.
If you look at lower end sedans there price hasn’t changed much and has even gone down. For example if you look at the Chevy Malibu the current base price is $25,100 , in 2014 the base price was $22,340 or $29,400 adjusted for inflation, in 2004 it was $18,700 or $31,067
Auto workers wages have gone down but they’ve steadied in recent years in 2004 hourly wage was $21.71 or $36.07 adjusted for inflation, in 2014 it was $21.38 or $28.17 adjusted for inflation now they are around $30.
So since 2004 the price for a car has gone down 24% and auto wages have also gone down 20%. The recent UAW contract wage increases with little to no increase in price shows there is some room for workers to get more out of that $25,000 cost pie, but there would be no room if that pie is shrunk to $10,000 to compete with Chinese manufacturers.
I mean I’d argue there’s some serious room to help out the consumer since the price of cars has been outpacing inflation pretty handily since around 2014 (and been beating it into a bloody pulp since 2020). There is some insanely obvious price gouging going on when the average price of a new car in 2024 is over 49k. There is room for BOTH higher wages and at least semi reasonable car prices for the American consumer. In my eyes if you clearly aren’t willing to help me as an everyday clearly struggling American today, then goooo right ahead and kiss my ass as I buy foreign if it’s cheaper.
The average purchase price has gone up because people are buying more expensive cars, eg. Large trucks, SUVs, luxury sedans, high end trims etc. not because cars are getting more expensive.
If you look at lower end sedans there price hasn’t changed much. For example if you look at the Chevy Malibu the current base price is $25,100 , in 2014 the base price was $22,340 or $29,400 adjusted for inflation, in 2004 it was $18,700 or $31,067
None of those are close to the $10,000 cars coming out of China because you just can’t make a car for that cheap in a country with high labor costs like the u.s., or even Japan or Germany.
That added cost came in the form of dealer markups during COVID that never went away since theyre still selling. The manufacturers don’t have much control over what the dealerships do.
Everyone is broke as fuck we are open to cheap everything. People are living in literal sheds
I wish I could afford a shed.
Just stop spending so much money on food. Sheds will feel bigger if you are starving to death
it’s like you’ve never heard of roommates. If you get a third job and find a couple people, i’m sure you could afford to rent a shed
No, most of us are broke because we insist on ensuring that suburban mcmansions are the only places to really live. When you spend 30% on driving and 40% on housing, suddenly you are broke.
Yeah that’s what I don’t get, people complain housing is unnafordable now, but their expectation for a house is way higher than previous generations, and squander their money on “necessities” that really aren’t that. Yes, the housing market IS fucked, but by less than people make it seem like
Maybe make affordable cars here then?? Dumbasses
Right?? Cheap is the wrong word.
Next you’ll be seeing bs gaslighting articles saying “American carmakers are being driven to bankruptcy thanks to millenials’ changing preferences”
Oh, apologies my good Lemming but you’re mistaken. We make affordable ones here but the auto companies decided they’d make more money if they artificially keep supply low to keep prices high. Car Graveyards
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Profit line must always go brrrrr!
I want to know how much the price of a car would come down if I didn’t need to visit a salesperson working on commission. I want to go to Costco, test drive it to make sure I like it, and check out.
80s: You wouldn’t buy a Japanese car!
90s: you wouldn’t buy a Korean car!
00s: you wouldn’t buy a small Italian car!
…I’d still never buy an Italian car of any size. Not then and not now.
It’s not the country of origin, it’s the brand that matters
I’d buy a Revuelto in an instant, I’m just lacking the ~600k to do so
Yes I think that’s the part where you have to, you know, compete or whatever.
Nooooo, you have to buy local, get our new Chevro-laid Mountain Dew 16x16 for only 250k (Tips not included)
It’s difficult to compete with Chinese companies that operate at a loss and are subsidized by the Chinese government.
Fucking lol. Good thing we don’t subsidize ANYTHING AT ALL and never export anything either. Boy. You’d have to be EVIL to want your country to have AFFORDABLE CARS. What’s next, AFFORDABLE HOUSING?
Why can’t we subsidize American carmakers more?
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Subsidies are an incredible tool when used well, like when they funded a bunch of utility cooperatives that electrified rural US. Maybe you’re asking why we should because propping up the car industry when public transit and bike infrastructure should be subsidized instead, rather than challenging subsidies, though.
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We do. They just send the windfall to exec salary and shareholders rather than to tax paying customers.
“We hear you, American consumer! You say you want a sub-$40k, small, basic EV. So here’s another luxury SUV/pickup truck/yacht crossover starting at $90,000.”
You have to be capitalistic, no not like that!
They’ll just ban them from being imported. Far cheaper to pay off some politicians than it is to compete or whatever. Kinda like the tariffs on the solar panels ‘flooding the market’ they just announced.
What’s their e-bike situation like? Are there good ones or will they blow my nuts off?
Yes
Recommendations?
Oh I was making a joke, like you posted an ‘or’ comment & I replied Yes like it will do both. 😂 Good bike, blows your balls off.
I’ve been looking at Super73 for years as a CLASSIC styling, really handsome ebike. YouTube search for things like Survival ebike, ebike for preppers. Because you’ll tap into a whole community of people that want good & tough ebikes, not flimsy crap, ebikes that should be good relatively long-term. I trust Canadian Prepper; this video is a little older but information & considerations tend to be relevant years later.
I saw another prepper cheaping it with $700-800 ebikes, if I find it I’ll post name & link…
Anyway jokes aside I hope that helps. Idk your situation but I’d almost be tempted to wait just a few more years; pandemic/oil prices have pushed so many ebikes into the wild & that has brought about soooooo much real-world testing & consumer feedback. I’m thinking the ebikes just a few years from now will be so much better, and possibly for cheaper or the same price.
In my experience preppers buy things that sit in their storage space unused. I want something I can use hard (as a cargo bike) several times per day, every day, for decades.
This is a valid criticism that we talk about…working through supply, using supply, and becoming familiar with it is actually the ideal we should all strive for. 🙂 Idk about any bike, electric or not, that can withstand hard use several times/day for decades. (o_O) But product design is getting better all the time!
Some of the best bikes that last decades were built in the 1970s. There are some machines that don’t get more durable when you throw more R&D at it.
Breakthroughs in product design for nonelectric bikes have been mostly optimizing weight, but very minor improvements that don’t apply steel cargo bikes built to last generations.
Oh, I definitely know bikes that can survive hard use for decades. Of course you have to change wearing parts every X thousand km, but the bike should last generations.
What I’m unsure about is the e-bikes. I really don’t want the battery to catch fire or explode. And the motor should last generations.
This is actually super great timing. I’m guessing by safer, they mean, won’t blow your nuts off. 🤭 Might be a good community for us, too.
https://fedia.io/m/[email protected]/t/764970
Even some domestic brands like Juiced go on sale for like, $1,200 for a Juiced Ripracer. Aventon appears to make good stuff too, if you want bike shop support. I’ve had my bike for a month and put 320 miles on it. Fun little bike :)
The biggest con is the industry’s war to make Kei trucks illegal in the US.
Auto industry looking at their overly inflated prices, “well well well, if it isn’t the consequences of my actions.”
I personally own Ioniq 5 but that is because Hyundai has better after sales support in my country than emerging Chinese OEMs.
Not to mention existing Chinese cars currently do not possess enough battery capacity and efficiency for my taste.
Once they fix that atrocious after sales support, I will reconsider them.
FYI, Wuling Air EV probably has the 2nd biggest sales number here in my country but people who own them complain alot about maintenance and spare part supplies.
You have to drive 250km to do your grocery shop then another 150km to drive your kids home? lmao
The industry should meet the needs of the consumer, not the shareholder.
But that’s not the American way
Capitalism creates monopoly. The consumer’s needs can be manufactured. In a society organized around capital shareholder needs are paramount.
All cars should cost 500k minimum and roads should stop being built, also cap all auto-industry salaries and annual shareholder payouts to 500k with the rest overflowing to the workers. Within 20years seeing a car in America will be rare, within 50years, we’ll have solved climate change.
Why not cap shareholder payouts to $0 and nationalize one of them?
That sounds like socialism. I’m proposing a market based solution which as we all know is the only possible way that things can be done.
lol
Ah yes the old “ban living in rural America” strategy, that will play well. Reliance on cars was a mistake but its too late to just pretend a lot, if not most, Americans need a car to live.
Did you know that before cars, people lived in rural america and that most of rural america was served by trains.
Most of rural America wasn’t served at all, you had to travel to a town with a train station. For smaller towns, no lines were ever built. It’s a completely unrealistic idea. It also doesn’t address the issue of local transport.
Cars are like 5% of co2 emmisions. Until they ban dirty ship oil and curb industry emissions (world wide), nothing will change.
Wrong: According to the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), motor vehicles produced about 22% of total U.S. greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions in 2020, making them the most significant contributor to the country’s emissions.
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fast-facts-transportation-greenhouse-gas-emissions
Also you should probably note that the automotive industry is also contributing to world emissions.
We will be long dead as China will have taken over the world if we implemented these policies and crippled our economy and military because of it.
Sounds good. In the meantime I’ll be taking an electric train to a brewery that is currently a 2hr drive from me since I’m no longer slaving away so that MIC executives can build planes that don’t fly, for a war that isn’t going to happen.
You certainly won’t be doing that in America lol. Unrealistic in the next 30 years at least.
Have to keep going and ensure survival so that we can get to that point.
The sheer aura of capitalism is so strong in this post.
It’s the only system that works (if you ignore the planned economy that has built 45,000km of high speed rail and has a home ownership rate of 90%+, and has more green energy production than the rest of the world combined)!! That’s basic economics!!
Jokes on you, I can actually already take a train from Chicago to Kalamazoo and enjoy a beer from Bell’s Brewery. It’s not a high-speed train to get there, but that can be upgraded if there was ever the desire to do so.
Well too fucking bad for the auto industry? Just because it’s an American industry doesn’t mean we should give a fuck about it. If they want our loyalty, make fucking better cars.
Oh the thing is we should totally care!
Not for the “losses of expected revenue” of car industry shareholders, I don’t care about that.
But for years already I hate that china, you know, the most hardcore surveillance state, is pumping Europe with their computerized automatic surveillance machines!
At least they are not operating as automatized killing machines. Yet.And before anyone says. I feel the same about other, noon-chinese cars too that are filled with all kinds of external sensors. I hate Teslas with a passion, but in my opinion chinese cars are even worse, just as chinese, state sponsored apps on our phones.
If they want our loyalty, make fucking better cars
I mean, in the spirit of the post, make fucking cheaper cars
Cars have been getting expensive AF
Cars has been so poorly made dor 1 or 2 decades now, that I respect most people who drives late 90’s to early 00’s cars.
Electric cars are a joke in terms of quality. How they don’t have self-dignity at all?
I’d rather walk than spend money on an ‘American’ car. Fuck, I’d rather walk period but you can catch my drift.
There’s all kinds of wacky taxes, regulations, and barriers to prevent the US industry from having to compete with the world. One such example is the Chicken Tax:
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/chicken-tax.asp
That one keeps the Toyota Hilux out of the US.
This.
If automakers were truly scared, Ford wouldn’t be scaling back it’s EV plans.
The world doesn’t need an EV Mustang or $99K F150, it needs an EV Focus or Escort oor Fiesta level car that normal people can afford.
Which we won’t get with Ford deciding instead to focus on hybrids.
Instead, the Blue Oval wants to focus on making more hybrids instead and says it will have hybrid options for all its internal combustion engine-powered vehicles by 2030.
Also, apparently, people quite like the EV Mustang.
But with Mustang Mach-E sales up 77 percent to 9,589 sold, and a 148 percent growth for the E-Transit, Ford is the country’s second-bestselling EV brand.
Does that account for the fact that most US Tacoma’s are built in San Antonio (there’s also a plant in Tijuana) and the Tundra is also built at the San Antonio plant?
The tundra, F-150 and Honda Ridge line are all tied at 75% domestic US parts production. The Tacoma’s is a bit lower at 70%.
Toyota Hilux: the middle-east terrorist’s truck of choice.
But seriously, those things are everywhere in the Middle East and Africa.
I guess you need a cheap, reliable, relatively high performance truck with good off-road capabilities with a large bed to mount weaponry on.
What else would they use?
Half your fleet experiencing engine failure around 110,000 miles really puts a wrinkle in the jihad so I guess that rules out Chevrolet.
