Edit: A few people have interpreted the title as serious, so I wanna clarify that it was meant as a sarcastic joke about how little sense the neurotypical world makes to me, but it is still legitimately me asking for help understanding said neurotypical world.
Was having a conversation with a friend today about why I seem unapproachable to people online. Apparently it’s for 2 reasons.
One is that I say “K.” all the time, as a short way of saying okay. She pointed out that most people find this rude and offensive. This kinda baffled me, because like why? She explained that like, if somebody were to give a long emotional speech and I just responded “K.” that would be offensive. That confounds me. So it’s rude in one context, and neurotypicals have decided to be offended by it in all contexts? But the reason it’s rude is what confuses me more. Apparently it’s considered lazy because you could have just typed out the word, but like, that applies to all text speech and nobody’s mad about people shortening those words.
But it got more confusing when she explained the second reason, which is that I end all of my sentences with proper punctuation, which she said “makes people feel like I’m done with the conversation and not interested.” But just a second ago improper grammar was rude, and now proper grammar is rude instead.
It baffles me. You can’t just use proper or improper grammar. Use too much improper grammar and you’re lazy and rude. Use too little and you’re also rude. But you can’t just use any improper grammar, you have to use the very specific subset of improper grammar that’s been deemed acceptable and not lazy (even though it’s exactly as lazy as what they do consider lazy.)
To be clear, I’m not bitter, and I’m definitely gonna adjust my behavior to hopefully seem a little less rude to people. I think that’s just a nice thing to do. I just find the neurotypical mind utterly fascinating. I don’t think they even realize how many contradictions exist in the social rules they all so easily accept.
I’m not sure how helpful this will be, but I think it is misleading for you to think of these things as “rules”. Calling them rules implies that people know what they are, and try to abide by them. But I don’t think thats whats happening.
Since written communication conveys so much less emotion than verbal communication, people tend to read more into the textual form to infer things like emotion or intent. There aren’t specific rules for this, people just pick up on patterns. For example angry or excited people tend to use capitals to “sound louder”. People talking casually tend to leave out some grammar. Friendly conversations tend to have more long rambling sentences, as opposed to someone trying to prove a point with concise, well punctuated sentences.
So I think what NTs are doing is just subconsciously figuring out these patterns to determine a likely emotion/intent behind messages.
To me, “K” isn’t rude for the reasons your friend tried to list, but it does sound “colder” to me, probably because my brain sees a pattern where the people who are not interested in talking to me will tend to use short succinct responses, while people happy to talk will use longer form.
But a huge part of communication, especially online, is just getting used to the people you talk to. It’s happened many times that someone who seemed grumpy to me at first turned out to be very friendly, etc.
There are no official rules, we NT just kinda feel it, like a sixth sense and so because we are the majority and we share this ability no one is even aware of it consciously. How can you describe a sight to a blind person? It’s difficult at best and impossible at worst. It’s like an instinct. We can describe it logically but it will always be imperfect and not feasible at times
K
If it’s any consolation, my just-barely-maybe neurotypical ass uses proper punctuation and I’ve never had any issues. If anyone asks I just say it’s a thing I do.
Yeah, it seems not everyone has an issue with it. It might be more of an issue with me because I don’t often convey much emotion when I speak because I don’t know how, so I probably sound dead an uninterested when I combine that with perfect punctuation. Thinking about it, I also make very sparing use of exclamation points, so maybe I just seem so dead and formal that it makes people think I’m not really into the conversation.
They are not in charge. It’s just that autistic people sometimes take non-critically not even what they are told, but the situation and the emotion as something normal, because that other person is more social and knows how it is.
The rules are different for every tone, discourse, context, etc. Adjusting for one of them won’t do much good even.
You won’t ever lift the weight of adjusting yourself for such expectations well enough. Putting more trust in your own perception of what’s rude and what isn’t is the only way to deal with it.
I mean, probably a therapist would say that. Still ask your therapist and not Lemmy.
I mean, probably a therapist would say that. Still ask your therapist and not Lemmy.
The funny part is I asked here specifically because I was directed to by a psychiatrist. They thought the best people to ask would be other people with autism who’ve already learned better how to interact because they’ll understand what I need to hear better.
She also told me to consult the friend mentioned in my post, which is how that conversation started.
The reason I’m trying so hard to understand is because I keep having mental health crises over my inability to communicate and the fact that I have a habit of making people really mad and not knowing why or what I did to cause it. Being not only an outcast but having everyone hate me and not just imagining that is very stressful.
Trusting myself to know what’s rude doesn’t work. I piss people off extremely easily and don’t even notice I did until they’re refusing to speak to me.I have the same problem.
When a conflict arises, just tell them what you think about it and that they are assholes both for deciding to be offended without asking you and for thinking that their idea of being nice is the only right one. Be more aggressive and open about what you think both when behaving like you do and when evaluating their response and opinions on that. And don’t ask, beg or otherwise put yourself in a dependent\lower position.
Some of those people will get pissed off even more, because they were consciously abusing this, to be honest. Like with bullying at school, liking it that you’re “wrong” and they are “normal”. And if you feel yourself cut off, that succeeded and they are fine with it, and if you don’t, they really won’t like it. Expect mischief and cowardly shit behind your back from such.
But some will understand you better and won’t make that mistake further. Well, after a few such aggressive actions, because it’s not easy to understand immediately. These are much more numerous than you’d think.
Never try to track your own reactions, “mistakes” and correct for those. You’ll get overloaded with depressive thoughts and indecisiveness.
Those people are smart enough to understand what is what. Some of them will if given better context, which I called aggressive. And some of them are consciously attacking you because they can.
As far as I understand, people generally assume I’m being rude and dismissive, but they don’t tell me that, they just kinda stop talking. Then they go and ask my friend why I’m like that, where she explains to them that I’m not being rude, I just have difficulty communicating, at which point they usually accept that, but still don’t talk to me much because I’m just too difficult to get close to. Or at least they think I am, because they don’t realize I’m enjoying their company because I don’t express it, because I just assume they’d know because I’m paying attention to them.
That’s what I’m working on. Showing people that I’m genuinely enjoying their company, that when they ask me questions I’m happy to answer, and so on. So it’s not so much a problem of people not being willing to adapt to me, but the fact that they as much as me don’t know how to adapt, so I need to meet them in the middle.but the fact that they as much as me don’t know how to adapt, so I need to meet them in the middle.
That may be true, but many times you’ll find out that the other side considers only meeting at their side the polite behavior. Because they’re “normal”.
Because it’s not that hard to meet in the middle, just remembering that people are different does that.
I’m aware, and thanks for the advice. I’ve experienced a little of this already since I’ve been applying the advice I’ve gotten here. Luckily, so far, most have been willing to put some effort in now that I’ve shown I’m willing to as well. It’s easy enough to just not talk to the people who won’t, because they’re already not trying.
I agree with so many folks on this thread- your friend is pushing one set of social queues that they abide by, but that isn’t everyone.
I think this has more to do with communication over text, as there are NO physical cues to help gauge tone. I’m not autistic, however when texting I’ve learned to practice mirroring for each person I chat with. If I notice they end their sentences without punctuation, I’ll adopt that. If I notice more emojis, I’ll have fun with that, or hold off if it seems that they don’t use them.
A big one for me is using “!”. I usually will use “!” to signal excitement/ friendly tone, however I’ve learned some people see it as an angry tone and thought I was freaking out about what they said.
When I talked to my therapist, he noted with his clients that 90% of disputes start over social media/ texting. I almost lost a friend when they sent me a lecture from a professor talking about the Israeli/ Palestine conflict. A few days later I saw a funny music composition video titled “old MacDonald had a lobotomy”. I thought I was just sending a funny video, but she thought it was in response to her video, and I got a stern text that I had to clear up.
I agree after reading the rest of the thread, but I think that may also have partially been her intention. I hang out primarily with the same group she does, so she’s trying to help me get along with that particular group. Even so, her tips could help me come off as less robotic in general, even if they’re not strict rules that need to be followed, so I think I’m gonna still try to take her tips and just adapt them to myself.
Definitely gonna stop saying “K.” though. I don’t have the skill to be nuanced enough to not use it improperly. Additionally, I always assumed people just wouldn’t try to gauge my tone over text if I didn’t specify it, but I guess unlike me it’s important to neurotypicals to understand how each other feel, even if they have to assume, so I’ll just have to cut down on the assumptions they have to make.Very fair! Also I’m learning it’s fine to stomp on the eggshells and send a text saying “so hey, here’s what I mean when I say K” or something like that so the people you chat with are on the same page. It seems awkward, but also could be a way to avoid even more awkward situations later.
Cue(s) not queue(s). One is a hint or indicator, and the other is an organized line. A social cue. Solid points as well.
Haha I mean a line of people might help the situation but I dunno! Thanks for the correction
Saying “k” probably seems dismissive to most people
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Yup. It’s saying “I’m acknowledging that I heard what you said, but only giving the bare minimum effort in responding.” It could also potentially sound sarcastic and/or condescending, depending on the tone.
It basically comes off like this thumbs up meme:
I have pretty much the same comment as anyone else here (punctuation is fine, “K” is less fine) so I won’t repeat it but it reminds me of this sketch. People can’t read your inflection over texts…especially when it’s a one letter answer.
Imagine a parent saying “clean your room” and a passive aggressive teenager saying “K.” - that’s how it can be interpreted in some contexts.
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K can give the impression that you don’t care and don’t want to be bothered with it. The effort in your response is expected to be proportional to the effort it took to write the message to you.
If someone write a long personal message to you, and all you responds is K, then it gives the impression that you might not even read the message. Why even bother next time?
Proper grammar in informal settings is a difficult one, but this is my theory:
It might give the impression of mismatch in vibes. There’s a difference in informal speak and formal speak, and participants in a conversation are expected to be in the same wavelength. An extreme example, but it’s like when everybody is dressed casually at a social gathering, but you decide to show up in a three piece suit.
Your friend sounds impressively tedious.
It’s unfortunate I gave that impression, because she’s probably the nicest, most accepting person I know, even including other autistics. She was just trying to let me know because I’ve experienced significant psychological distress from my inability to connect to other people, so she’s trying to help me understand why, which was a recommendation by a psychiatrist I saw.
You are attempting too hard to be a part of a group of friends who do not consider you one, and are likely willing to drop you for the smallest reason that is socially agreed amongst them.
I’ve been replying to group texts like that for decades and my friends do not give a fuck. You should resume replying like how your friend is telling you puts people off and see who your real friends are.
That seems like a big reaching conclusion based on very little data.
Friendship goes both ways and requires equal effort from both parties to make it work. Being rigid and unadapatable is a great way to whittle away your friends unnecessarily.
If people are affected by the simple reply of “K” by OP, something more fundamental is wrong with the relationship than adaptability.
Actually I’m fairly popular, but that just leads to me catching a lot of attention from strangers who’s first interaction with me, not knowing I’m autistic, is seeing somebody rude and dismissive.
If I could just explain to everybody immediately “hey, I’m autistic, I’m not being rude on purpose,” that’d be great. But most of my interactions with people are short messages like “What outfit are you wearing on your character” or a quick invitation to join them for something. Not a lot of opportunities to explain to them why I act the way I do.
When I do get the opportunity is usually when I end up making real friends, because they don’t see me as the dismissive girl who doesn’t want to talk to them anymore, but instead the autistic girl who just interacts a little differently.
Hell, some people keep trying over and over again to be my friend even when they think I am being rude and dismissive, they just don’t make any progress because they’ve misread my mood and assume I want them to go away.
Did you do teenager k, work k, or spouse k?
I’m not sure, but I’ve asked people and I’m told by my friends that before they knew me better, they thought I was either being passive aggressive, or maybe I was going through something and was being rude by accident (the friend I mentioned said a lot of people were asking her if I was okay, because apparently I came across like I was upset about something.)
I’m guessing that’d be the “spouse k” then since I think that’s the one that often implies “okay, but not really okay.”
The punctuation is total bullshit. 100% ignore them. Typing just K definitely is a bit informal for all but the most casual conversations with close relationships. I will 100% drop an👌👍 online when I encounter someone who just wants to argue or be mean to piss them off. Nothing enrages a gen z troll like 👌👍.
The punctuation thing has actually been pointed out to me on a couple occasions before. One of my exs thought it was weird and said it “gave the impression I’d be mad if other people’s grammar wasn’t perfect.” So apparently it does bother some people, but it’s probably more of a straw that broke the camel’s back situation, where I already speak so formally in the first place that it makes me look stuck up.
You should ignore every single one of those people bitching about punctuation.
No one is specifically in charge of social rules. There are reasons why things are the way they are, and it seems common that geeks and people who have often operated outside of this system think that they can intentionally defy the social rules without consequence if they understand the reason for it and think they can compensate.
This sort of “social hacking” doesn’t work because geeks don’t fully comprehend all the reasons why things are the way they are and it ultimately blows up in their face.
