A tiny, low-priced electric car called the Seagull has American automakers and politicians trembling.
The car, launched last year by Chinese automaker BYD, sells for around $12,000 in China, but drives well and is put together with craftsmanship that rivals U.S.-made electric vehicles that cost three times as much. A shorter-range version costs under $10,000.
Tariffs on imported Chinese vehicles probably will keep the Seagull away from America’s shores for now, and it likely would sell for more than 12 grand if imported.
But the rapid emergence of low-priced EVs from China could shake up the global auto industry in ways not seen since Japanese makers exploded on the scene during the oil crises of the 1970s. BYD, which stands for “Build Your Dreams,” could be a nightmare for the U.S. auto industry.
“Any car company that’s not paying attention to them as a competitor is going to be lost when they hit their market,” said Sam Fiorani, a vice president at AutoForecast Solutions near Philadelphia. “BYD’s entry into the U.S. market isn’t an if. It’s a when.”
A tiny, low-priced electric car called the Seagull has American automakers and politicians trembling.
Hyperbole as rhetorical device is getting exhausting and makes me extremely skeptical.
Specially when you see the stats and it has a 190-250 mile range and a max speed of 81 MPH. And even the article points out they cut costs with things like having only one windshield wiper.
it has a 190-250 mile range and a max speed of 81 MPH
That’s further than I’d drive before a 20 minute rest stop, and faster than it’s legal to drive anywhere in the US, except for Texas State Highway 130.
And even the article points out they cut costs with things like having only one windshield wiper.
As opposed to the Cybertruck, which has a revolutionary, but very expensive, design featuring only one windshield wiper.
Cybertruck is a bad comparison, everyone already knows that thing is a steaming pile of hot garbage.
Yeah here in the uk there’s plenty of good charging points, woodland trust and national trust are putting them in at a lot of locations so I could plan a relaxing walk in the woods with my journey if I ever needed to go more than 150 miles, I think that would be really nice.
Supermarkets have tave them too, so I could plan getting the shopping I need for the trip while it charges, this would allow me to avoid predatory pricing at garages too.
I just looked on a road distance map and it’s about where I would normally stop for a break, I’ve done longer drives but only rarely and I can’t think of a time an excuse to stop for a walk in the woods wouldn’t have been welcomed.
Oh and I only have one wiper but it was made by Hyundai so I guess it gets a pass lol
It also doesn’t meet US auto safety standards.
I don’t think comparing it to cybertruck is really a win. I could be in a bubble, but I hear nothing but terrible things about them.
Also, anecdotally, going on long family trips in my van, I frequently do 350 miles between stops on 900 mile trips. I’d say 80 is a typical speed on the Ohio turnpike, but I’d be a little worried about driving that thing pedal to the floor for 2-3 hours straight (no worries though, it’ll never get that range at full speed).
That said, hey if this car meets your needs I’m all for that. Everyone should have options. I would consider buying one for my kids when they start driving as long as it’s safe in accidents.
I stopped reading there.
Thanks for letting us know.
You’re welcome
This whole article is just paid marketing. Some AP journalist didn’t tear this car down and analyze its build quality.
Cars which won’t pass inspection in the US and are only sold in China are no threat to anything.
That’s false. The same car is sold in Mexico & Brazil and probably other countries as well
Two other countries with extremely lax safety standards.
They might not pass inspection, I don’t know. But that’s only in states with inspections. Not all states have those.
Where as the States with no inspection are impoverished shit holes, I stand by my, ‘no threat’.
Where as the States with no inspection are impoverished shit holes, I stand by my, ‘no threat’.
You don’t live in reality.
California is the largest economy in the United States, and one of the largest in the world. It’s also the one with the largest market for EVs in the US. As an added bonus, it’s very conveniently positioned on the west coast, with easy access to shipping lanes from China. And finally, it’s probably the state that’s least likely to care if a US auto maker on the other side of the nation is struggling. Only fifteen states in the US require inspections, and California isn’t one of them. In fact, the only state that isn’t on the east coast that requires an inspection is Texas. All other states have nothing but emissions tests, if that, and any EV would be excluded from those, for obvious reasons.
That would include Michigan, which is where they design a lot of US domestic cars.
Any new vehicle sold in the US needs to pass NHTSA standards. We’re not talking about emissions testing.
Would it not? I don’t know anything about that, so I can’t say, but would Biden be cracking down on imports if it wasn’t a concern for them?
I would say no at the prices they’re selling for in China. The crackdown is due to the massive subsidies being pumped into these manufacturers by the Chinese government which would make it impossible for any other manufacturer to compete with them since they’re selling them below cost.
They still have regulations and certain standards need to be met. I think it’s set by the NHTSA.
Unless they’re over 25 years old. But then there’s state laws for that too. I just want my kei truck.
The seagull ev being discussed is not 25 years old.
This may surprise you but US manufacturers count on a lot of income from selling outside the US. They’re all global conglomerates. Even looking through your roses colored glasses, do you really think legacy manufacturers will do well when they lose all of their global sales?
and are only sold in China are no threat to anything.
The export model, the Dolphin Mini, is expected in Europe in 2025.
When I post a comment that mentions Europe I keep that in mind.
Are you suggesting that there is a material difference of minimal testing standard between the EU and the USA?
Capital interests might have something to say about it in the US. No way they’re letting the government allow those in.
Okay but how’s the safety, reliability, and build quality? Good, or Chinesium?
Leverage your precious free market capitalism and compete, assholes. It’s not a threat, it’s an opportunity.
So, there’s a guy Silicon Valley Billionaire named Peter Thiel who released a book back in 2014 called “Zero to One”, in which he advocates for the monopoly system and claims any good businessman ultimately seeks to corner the market.
The US car market has been consolidating over the last 40 years, in an effort to cartelize and ultimately monopolize the automotive industry. We’ve passed a host of regulations and taxes that compel foreign manufacturers to build and assemble cars domestically, to partner with US car firms, and to absorb parts of the market American firms don’t want to occupy (US firms have functionally given up making small cars - almost everything is a truck or an SUV now). And we’ve unleashed our investment banks on East Asian industries, guaranteeing financial control of the largest firms in Korea, Japan, The Phillipines, and Taiwan via our international system of credits and debits.
The goal was never free markets, it was captured revenue streams. As we enter a new high surveillance age, vehicles are increasingly part of the always-on Internet Of Things information network used to continuously monitor anyone with enough money to afford a cellular device.
Excising firms like Huawei, ByteDance, and now BYD from the US marketplace is about cementing that captured state of the American economy and tightening the surveillance network. These are absolutely perceived of as threats, because they don’t integrate into our controlled networks. Until Chinese businesses are willing to submit to Five-Eyes surveillance and the Chicago School Economics of the New York banks, they’re not welcome in our country.
I don’t want a Chinese car but at the same time if American automakers are going to continue refusing to make affordable electric cars and only give massive SUVs and trucks as our gas options then it seems like that’s pretty much the choice we’ll be left with.
Edit: if this frightens the Biden administration then they need to find a way to put pressure on American manufacturers to make some decent vehicles.
I’m really not a fan of China, but I’m inclined to agree. We need smaller, more affordable vehicles. SUVs are antiquated, and trucks are largely decorative for most of the population. We need smaller, lighter vehicles. Though we also should be investing much more into mass transit rather than (largely redundant) highways and roads anyways, as it’s a huge waste of taxpayer money. Keep the key highways, build rail to reduce reliance on shit we shouldn’t really be rebuilding anyways. A lot of highways are going to be hitting the end of their useful lives soon, anyways, and require rebuilds.
Just want to remind people that BYD has been in the American market since 2011. They’ve been involved with building industrial vehicles like trucks and buses.
I don’t even like buying Chinese shoes because they fall apart before the season ends. Do these shoes spy on us as well ?
Yes but all cars with smart software or trackers such as OnStar spy on you and sell your data. A car that won’t spy on you is that $12000 Toyota pickup that lacks most of these features designed for spy use (which won’t come to the US even though I want one).
Smart shoes are a thing and probably collect data as well.
A electric car that is not a SUV? I am in!!! Here in Canada the only option for EV are Prius and SUV. No small EV car under 20k. I say bring them on!! Otherwise I will continue to buy juices from arabian country.
I’ve seen enough QA issues with most of the Chinese EVs I would highly doubt any of them make it to the USA for consumer sale at any scale. Some have overheating issues, panels fall off, cheap seat belts, uncomfortable seats, sizing issues (too small for larger Americans), goofy AC vents that blow weak when pointed downward and high when pointed at your face but don’t allow for other adjustments.
BYD has been making buses and work trucks for the US market for years. I’ve only had a ride on a few BYD buses, but they seem to be quality.
Good to hear they’ve had some success in the US, but I do worry about the quality of their consumer products. Too many companies can’t translate success in onr section of a market into another section.
I really want a small EV.
I agree with many of these points, but have two thoughts here. First, the same was true of many items being produced in China in the past, but quality control got better and honestly most of the products you can buy for a reasonable price are partly or wholly made in China. Second, Tesla is a good example of a US based company with many of the same issues. Loose panels, door handles that fall off, accelerators that get stuck, and so on. Bad engineering is not only available in Mandarin.
I hope they can produce a good quality electric car and help accelerate the transition.
1000% this.
This article is fuckin ridiculous. There hasn’t been a Chinese auto manufacturer that is even CLOSE.
I mean at those prices you don’t expect too much quality. Unlike Teslas that are poorly built but priced like the aren’t
Americans forced the world into the capitalist system, and now they don’t like it when China does capitalism. Why are they so afraid of the free market?
Except it’s not capitalism when China does it, it’s socialism. The EV manufacturers like BYD have had massive subsidies from the state to bring those products to market, and that level of state support and intervention is not palatable to Americans.
Political, Climate change and National Security concerns aside, the subsidies are how the US government are about to justify the tariffs.
We can talk about the massive subsidies the US government did and do to the automakers. The propaganda paid with tax money to have a centered car environment.
Each country subsidies its automaker but doesn’t want the other to do so because “Free market™”. It’s at best hypocrite.
So are massive subsidies only socialism when China does it?
The US has been doing that for decades.
yes but then the US doesn’t expect to sell huge quantities of its cars in China and upset the market. Nor would China permit that.
They not only sell huge quantities of cars in China, they export new and used cars to China for sale.
They’re not upsetting the market because they’re already a huge part of it.
Upsetting the market is generally good for consumers. Why exactly would you want to lick the boots of American auto manufacturers when they’re actively price gouging in the absence of any competition?
China: offers affordable EV
US Auto: NOoooooooooooooo!!
I won’t defend the US auto industry, but there are issues in play here that might not be obvious. For example:
Those are just excuses:
- Dumping: US auto industry is enjoying significant protectionism right now, with the excuse of combatting dumping. They have a grace period to catch up, but instead they’re backing off, retreating into their shells. We’re spending hundreds of billions of dollars to give them a chance to compete fairly and they’re throwing it away. I’ll have sympathy if they at least try.
- Surveillance: US auto industry and especially EVs are horrible with surveillance right now. You not only have no privacy, they commonly have cameras inside and can control your vehicle remotely. Those Chinese surveillance devices aren’t doing anything different from anyone else: they’re all violating our privacy and we have no protection. It’s not that I’m not afraid of Chinese surveillance devices but that I’m also afraid of US corporate surveillance devices. Let a have some actual privacy protections we can apply equally and fairly to all of them
Those are just excuses
They might be used as excuses by a complacent industry, but they are not just excuses. They are also valid reasons for concern, and would still be so even if not used as talking points for Detroit lobbyists.
US auto industry is enjoying significant protectionism right now
Regardless of that, China’s government has spent more than a few years subsidizing products and services in order to make their exports dirt cheap abroad, eventually making other nations dependent on them. (See also: the Belt and Road Initiative.) This fits the same pattern, and would still be a problem even if US auto industry protectionism didn’t exist.
US auto industry and especially EVs are horrible with surveillance right now.
Agreed, but once again, that doesn’t invalidate the problem that I mentioned. A foreign adversary having deep, real-time access to the nation’s infrastructure, traffic patterns, sensitive information revealed through conversations and cameras, etc. is a larger problem than the personal privacy issues that already exist domestically.
Chinese surveillance devices aren’t doing anything different from anyone else: they’re all violating our privacy and we have no protection.
The difference lies in where the collected information goes. That might not matter to some people on a personal level, but on a national scale, handing all that info to an adversary nation is cause for concern.
As opposed to them buying it from data brokers? There’s a difference in responsiveness and I’m sure data brokers make a pretense of anonymizing that will need a bit of adjustment, but I’m not convinced it’s as different as everyone is afraid of
As opposed to them buying it from data brokers?
That would also be a cause for concern. Both should be addressed.
I see your reasonable, logical arguments, and raise another Affordable EV.
Those are probably both totally relevant points but it’s not going to matter because everyone’s suffering so much from inflation that they’ll go ahead and take the bait and buy it anyway. Even those that are aware of the intentional nature of the dumping and aware of the risks of surveillance won’t be able to responsibly buy a car that cost $60,000 when they can get one for 12k.
everyone’s suffering so much from inflation that they’ll go ahead
That, along with a bloated auto industry and terribly underdeveloped public transit. Here’s hoping this turn of events will lead to real progress in fixing these problems.
If so, it’ll be because enough people discover that the problem is the system itself.
It’s not hard to beat “US craftsmanship”, did the writer saw anything about the cybertruck?
OK but let’s talk about the practical thing, how do I, a random American, get one?
How do you, an average American, purchase an anti-worker product created by an adversary government? Simple, you move to China along with the rest of the American CEOs.
an anti-worker product
Lolz. Lmao even.
Anti worker. Riiight.
That’s just you speaking the Big Three’s mantra. If they’d gotten off their rich asses and developed the tech for cheap, well-built EVs sooner they wouldn’t need Big Brother to run to their aid.
This is no different than what happened in the 70’s, so obviously they never learned their lesson then. This round, it’s time they did.
This isn’t about technology at all. It’s about labor costs. UAW labor costs more because its workers are paid well and they don’t get maimed by robots much. If in doubt, check the profit margins of the Big Three. The higher labor cost is also required because the standard of living is completely different. People in NA can’t work for Chinese wages and survive. And if you want to create a race to the bottom, that’s anti-worker. The shareholder class of the Big Three is still making disproportionately more than workers but this is one of the North American examples where there’s much more balance between them and workers.
Honda and Toyota posed the same problem and they were forced to create factories here in order to eliminate the labor cost disparity that would have destroyed the lives of UAW members. I don’t think many would have a problem with BYD building NA factories, especially if unionized by the UAW.
@Buelldozer is right, he’s just being extra spicy about it.
UAW labor costs more because its workers are paid well
UAW labor doesn’t cost more because its workers are paid well. UAW labor costs more because of our private health care system dumping workers into an extractive for-profit insurance system and the pensions system has been defrauded for decades. And even then, the margins on these vehicles are such that labor costs are negligible, particularly with the enormous amount of automation that goes into line work now.
That’s before you get into how many auto plants have been de-unionized, either by moving them south of the Mason-Dixon Line or by setting up two-tiered contracts that phase out older union workers for younger scabs.
People in NA can’t work for Chinese wages and survive.
That’s because they don’t have access to Chinese state benefits. No state pensions. No state health care. Stripped down public education. Crappy old roads instead of public rail. 90% of the population owning their homes rather than renting. Medicare and SS benefit cuts forcing folks to work into their 70s and 80s, rather than retiring comfortably at the age of 54
That’s why Chinese labor is cheaper.
Honda and Toyota posed the same problem and they were forced to create factories here in order to eliminate the labor cost disparity that would have destroyed the lives of UAW members.
Toyota plants aren’t unionized. We just saw an effort to unionize a plant in Troy, Michigan this year and its been fought tooth and nail by the industry.
“paid well” only has meaning in the context of standard of living, or cost of living. You provided that context. Within it they’re paid relatively well. They’re not getting state pensions or healthcare anytime soon so we work within the context.
You provided that context. Within it they’re paid relatively well.
This exposé is a bit suspect, or at least this part is which makes me question the integrity as a whole:
He was forced to walk 21 miles daily, one way, to his job
Average human walks 3mph. This dude apparently never sleeps.
The whole thing reads like a corporate “uNioNS BaD” article
and they don’t get maimed by robots much
???
- Is there evidence that Chinese workers have high high rates of this?
- People are getting maimed at Tesla plants all the time.
- The US created the neoliberal WTO to crush labor rights worldwide, worker safety among them. The only reason the US is sabotaging the WTO now is because that system no longer favors it.
.
Honda and Toyota posed the same problem and they were forced to create factories here in order to eliminate the labor cost disparity that would have destroyed the lives of UAW members.
I don’t understand. Were Honda & Toyota forced to, or did they do it out of the kindness of their hearts?
@Buelldozer is right, he’s just being extra spicy about it.
You’re darn right I’m being extra spicy. This is a re-run of what I watched happen with textiles, steel, and other manufacturing businesses here in the United States and especially industries that were heavily unionized with higher labor costs.
It’s astonishing to see so many people willing to kill their Domestic Labor just so they can get a cheap car. It’s disgustingly short sighted and selfish.
Yeah I’m a bit puzzled because I think these folks are supportive of labor given they seem positive about workers in China having better safety nets. Yet letting cars in that will destroy local manufacturing isn’t going to do anything positive for North American labor. If anything is going to help, it’s supporting them instead of non-union car makers and supporting union action at non-union manufacturers. I’m of the opinion that we can’t expect any improvements from the political class before we take more of the profits so we can buy those politicians like corporations have. They simply won’t represent labor to a significant extent unless they see workers as organized voting blocks that don’t lap up corporate propaganda.
They think they’re leftists. But they’re too “me first” on consuming to realize they’re not.
I’m of the opinion that we can’t expect any improvements from the political class before we take more of the profits so we can buy those politicians like corporations have.
The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. — Audre Lorde
I don’t think we should try to play the game by the capitalist class’ own rules, which they created for themselves. We’re never going to be able buy the political system by outspending the capitalist class: they own the means of production and it’s their political system.
Right now labor is very divided, shattered. It was significantly more organized a hundred years ago, though still divided along racial lines, a mistake we mustn’t repeat. People don’t seem to remember now how many socialists existed back then and were deeply involved in that organizing, before they were crushed by red scares and other skulduggery. And unfortunately almost all of our surviving unions came from explicitly anti-socialist roots, the others having been purged. Socialists are still extremely few in the US.
We can’t buy government, and we know our vote alone has very little power. What we need is a resurgent, re-organized labor movement, and new labor media (we used to have our own newspapers!) to counteract corporate media, and we need new mass industrial actions that fit today’s material conditions*. That’s how we forced the state to make concessions in the past.
*Simply organizing “blue collar” workers again won’t cut it, because many of us are not that now.
What you suggested is what I imagine. Thank you for articulating it!
This is no different than the 70s tho, when the oil crisis and subsequent importation of compact vehicles forced the Big Three to mothball the ‘boats’.
BYD would likely want to gauge support in America before committing to building factories, especially in a nation where land prices have skyrocketed.
Anti worker. Riiight.
Are you seriously trying to make the claim that a Chinese auto worker is doing as well as a UAW member? If you are I want proof, if not then what are you talking about?
If they’d gotten off their rich asses and developed the tech for cheap, well-built EVs sooner they wouldn’t need Big Brother to run to their aid.
You realize it’s “cheap” in China because their Government subsidizes it and the manufacturers abuse their employees, right?
This round, it’s time they did.
I have no love for the American Auto Industry but this idea that BYD or any other Chinese “New Energy” vehicle is competing on anything like a level playing field is ludicrous. They are cheap because they pay their workers like dogshit, they treat their workers like dogshit, they have near zero environmental safety regulations, and they have near zero environmental regulations hell. 2/3rds of their electricity is produced by burning coal!
Lusting after a cheap BYD product just because you despise American Auto Manufacturers is literally cutting of your own nose in order to spite your face.
literally cutting of your own nose
“Literally”? Really? People lusting after BYD products have no noses now?
That’s the only thing you respond to?
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US government right now is very heavily subsidizing EVs as well. It’s not just the Chinese government. For my purchase, the direct incentives alone were $11,500 (and that doesn’t count the tens of billions in indirect subsidies) - if a legacy manufacturer could make an EV for even double the cost of BYD, I’d buy it since my cost would be the same
I’ll give you higher wages and move the goalposts toward you to account for it …… let’s say double the price. Where is my flood of EVs from legacy manufacturers for no more than double the price of Chinese manufacturers?
US government right now is very heavily subsidizing EVs as well.
What you refer to as “heavily” (~15B across four years) is what China spent per year every year from 2009 through 2022, for a total of 173 Billion dollars. Their latest package, announced last September, will have them spending 73$ Billion across the next four years. Their Government has literally been subsidizing EV production at 3-4 times the rate of the United States for over a decade! Yeah, that’s a totally level playing field. No shenanigans there, no Sir.
let’s say double the price.
As the article notes the Seagull, rebadged as a Dolphin Mini, sells for $21,000 in Latin America so you aren’t going to get it for $24,000 in the United States and most especially not if it’s built here where they can’t employ people for 5 USD an hour.
You don’t have to like it, or me, but it’s completely irrefutable that the 12,000 price is only possible due enormous government subsidies and cheap Chinese labor. Allowing those vehicles into the United States is the end of all domestic auto manufacturing, not just the Big 3, and all of the workers who are employed there. We already watched this play out with Steel, Textiles, and other manufacturing based industries.
I always was under the impression that america is similarly anti-worker, esp. hearing news about tesla strikes. Probably not as extreme as China though if you compare safety standards. When I look at car companies, there is honestly no good option that I would happily support by buying from. What do you mean about CEOs moving to China, is this a thing?
anti-worker product
Most products in the states is literally this.
Drive it over the border from Mexico. Although, you’ll likely have to pay above the sticker price. Latin Americans are gobbling up Chinese NEVs as fast as they can deliver them.
I don’t know if the laws have changed but (for some reason I forget), a dealership here imported two three-wheeled small pickup trucks from China within the last decade or so. So it was at least possible within the recent past somehow.
The bigger issue is the U.S. auto dealership industry.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2023/11/09/car-dealerships-ev-sales/
If dealerships refuse to sell EVs, what can be done? Especially in states where cars can only be sold from licensed dealerships?
If dealerships refuse to sell EVs, what can be done?
Direct sales, which is becoming increasingly popular in a car market where dealership market ups price people out of purchases.
Especially in states where cars can only be sold from licensed dealerships?
We’ll see how long that lasts. Dealerships are the last great American petty aristocracy in a business environment that’s increasingly all about absolute monarchies. Tesla has already been lobbying hard to overturn the ban on direct sales in Texas, and is doing plenty to end-run the system in the meanwhile. Amazon would love to get into the automotive market (we’ll see where they go with their Rivian partnership). Silicon Valley hates these guys for getting in the way of their own drop shipping schemes. And its just a matter of time before the dam bursts.
You can’t do direct sales in a lot of states.
Amazon is not a manufacturer. They should be able to act as a dealer and the only problem being all the different paperwork for all the different states
It doesn’t. That car will never be here without direct investment in U.S. factories.
We have a free trade agreement with Mexico, and legacy car manufacturers are heavily dependent on Mexican factories with no tariffs or restrictions.
…. BYD has announced manufacturing in Mexico.
BYD said they aren’t importing from Mexico. Despite that fact, the Senate is moving to block them from importing from Mexico.
Even if they built them in a US factory their cars would still be better and cheaper. They just know that once they start the US will ban them like Tiktok, and they’d rather keep the battery and bus factories they already have in the US and avoid competing with anybody politically connected.
