A tiny, low-priced electric car called the Seagull has American automakers and politicians trembling.
The car, launched last year by Chinese automaker BYD, sells for around $12,000 in China, but drives well and is put together with craftsmanship that rivals U.S.-made electric vehicles that cost three times as much. A shorter-range version costs under $10,000.
Tariffs on imported Chinese vehicles probably will keep the Seagull away from America’s shores for now, and it likely would sell for more than 12 grand if imported.
But the rapid emergence of low-priced EVs from China could shake up the global auto industry in ways not seen since Japanese makers exploded on the scene during the oil crises of the 1970s. BYD, which stands for “Build Your Dreams,” could be a nightmare for the U.S. auto industry.
“Any car company that’s not paying attention to them as a competitor is going to be lost when they hit their market,” said Sam Fiorani, a vice president at AutoForecast Solutions near Philadelphia. “BYD’s entry into the U.S. market isn’t an if. It’s a when.”
The bigger issue is the U.S. auto dealership industry.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2023/11/09/car-dealerships-ev-sales/
If dealerships refuse to sell EVs, what can be done? Especially in states where cars can only be sold from licensed dealerships?
If dealerships refuse to sell EVs, what can be done?
Direct sales, which is becoming increasingly popular in a car market where dealership market ups price people out of purchases.
Especially in states where cars can only be sold from licensed dealerships?
We’ll see how long that lasts. Dealerships are the last great American petty aristocracy in a business environment that’s increasingly all about absolute monarchies. Tesla has already been lobbying hard to overturn the ban on direct sales in Texas, and is doing plenty to end-run the system in the meanwhile. Amazon would love to get into the automotive market (we’ll see where they go with their Rivian partnership). Silicon Valley hates these guys for getting in the way of their own drop shipping schemes. And its just a matter of time before the dam bursts.
You can’t do direct sales in a lot of states.
Amazon is not a manufacturer. They should be able to act as a dealer and the only problem being all the different paperwork for all the different states
It’s not hard to beat “US craftsmanship”, did the writer saw anything about the cybertruck?
A tiny, low-priced electric car called the Seagull has American automakers and politicians trembling.
Hyperbole as rhetorical device is getting exhausting and makes me extremely skeptical.
This whole article is just paid marketing. Some AP journalist didn’t tear this car down and analyze its build quality.
Specially when you see the stats and it has a 190-250 mile range and a max speed of 81 MPH. And even the article points out they cut costs with things like having only one windshield wiper.
it has a 190-250 mile range and a max speed of 81 MPH
That’s further than I’d drive before a 20 minute rest stop, and faster than it’s legal to drive anywhere in the US, except for Texas State Highway 130.
And even the article points out they cut costs with things like having only one windshield wiper.
As opposed to the Cybertruck, which has a revolutionary, but very expensive, design featuring only one windshield wiper.
Yeah here in the uk there’s plenty of good charging points, woodland trust and national trust are putting them in at a lot of locations so I could plan a relaxing walk in the woods with my journey if I ever needed to go more than 150 miles, I think that would be really nice.
Supermarkets have tave them too, so I could plan getting the shopping I need for the trip while it charges, this would allow me to avoid predatory pricing at garages too.
I just looked on a road distance map and it’s about where I would normally stop for a break, I’ve done longer drives but only rarely and I can’t think of a time an excuse to stop for a walk in the woods wouldn’t have been welcomed.
Oh and I only have one wiper but it was made by Hyundai so I guess it gets a pass lol
I don’t think comparing it to cybertruck is really a win. I could be in a bubble, but I hear nothing but terrible things about them.
Also, anecdotally, going on long family trips in my van, I frequently do 350 miles between stops on 900 mile trips. I’d say 80 is a typical speed on the Ohio turnpike, but I’d be a little worried about driving that thing pedal to the floor for 2-3 hours straight (no worries though, it’ll never get that range at full speed).
That said, hey if this car meets your needs I’m all for that. Everyone should have options. I would consider buying one for my kids when they start driving as long as it’s safe in accidents.
It also doesn’t meet US auto safety standards.
Cybertruck is a bad comparison, everyone already knows that thing is a steaming pile of hot garbage.
I stopped reading there.
Thanks for letting us know.
You’re welcome
A electric car that is not a SUV? I am in!!! Here in Canada the only option for EV are Prius and SUV. No small EV car under 20k. I say bring them on!! Otherwise I will continue to buy juices from arabian country.
Leverage your precious free market capitalism and compete, assholes. It’s not a threat, it’s an opportunity.
So, there’s a guy Silicon Valley Billionaire named Peter Thiel who released a book back in 2014 called “Zero to One”, in which he advocates for the monopoly system and claims any good businessman ultimately seeks to corner the market.
The US car market has been consolidating over the last 40 years, in an effort to cartelize and ultimately monopolize the automotive industry. We’ve passed a host of regulations and taxes that compel foreign manufacturers to build and assemble cars domestically, to partner with US car firms, and to absorb parts of the market American firms don’t want to occupy (US firms have functionally given up making small cars - almost everything is a truck or an SUV now). And we’ve unleashed our investment banks on East Asian industries, guaranteeing financial control of the largest firms in Korea, Japan, The Phillipines, and Taiwan via our international system of credits and debits.
The goal was never free markets, it was captured revenue streams. As we enter a new high surveillance age, vehicles are increasingly part of the always-on Internet Of Things information network used to continuously monitor anyone with enough money to afford a cellular device.
Excising firms like Huawei, ByteDance, and now BYD from the US marketplace is about cementing that captured state of the American economy and tightening the surveillance network. These are absolutely perceived of as threats, because they don’t integrate into our controlled networks. Until Chinese businesses are willing to submit to Five-Eyes surveillance and the Chicago School Economics of the New York banks, they’re not welcome in our country.
I don’t see a problem here. If the US auto makers are so worried, they should buy a few of them, copy their secrets, and sell them at a marked down price.
Turnabout is fair play, after all.They’d prefer to sell you a giant SUV or truck with massive profit margins and so they can continue to flout emissions standards.
Don’t forget our big three are just chomping at the bit to get in on the subscription model. Oh, you want ‘good’ brakes, well that’s $19.99/month. And there’s no ‘secrets’ to the chinese cars, I am willing to bet that they are just selling them at a loss. It’s not like they have to report real earnings to anyone.
I saw an article somewhere on lemmy recently that had some commentary from an American tear-down r&d type shop that said they think BYD makes a small profit on them
Very interesting. But the cynic in me says that even if we could tear it down and learn from it, we would manage to negate the savings with other costs. If they are making a profit, even if it’s tiny, that would still negate the tin foil hat people from being able to say they are just using them in infiltrate our nation with their spying and devious ways. Well one would think, but tin foil hat people will find a way to work around that, because what’s the best way to hide that you are infiltrating our nation then making it look like you are making a tiny profit. (Taps forehead…)
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This is an EV. There isn’t any emissions to be concerned about. At least not from the car itself.
Right, but it’s easier to continue to flout those standards than to build a high quality and affordable EV, with comparable profit margins. And the marketing is easier (“You’re not a real man without this giant truck!”).
They sell what buyers want. Look at sales numbers of small cars versus everything else.
So small imported EVs aren’t actually a threat, then?
They are a threat when they’re sold well below cost due to the Chinese government’s massive subsidies which make it impossible for any other non-Chinese manufacturer in the world to compete with them.
Sounds like what buyers want is cheap cars then.
Yeah just like they want cheap products when Walmart comes to town and before too long the local economy is in the crapper as all the town’s revenue gets funneled to Arkansas.
What you’re advocating for is a race to the bottom just so you can buy one (maybe two!) new car(s) instead of an affordable used car like most people do. Let China sell their cars here with the same subsidies that every other company qualifies for on a level playing field.
Buyers do not want them, at least not anymore
They’ve been saying that axing the small sedan was to put money into EV. Seems they lied to pocket it, but we get nothing because free market capitalism is bullshit.
That article simply states the sales of the Dodge Ram and Ford F150 were down last quarter and makes no mention of any other segment or manufacturer. Dodge hasn’t made a small sedan since 2016 and Ford hasn’t made one since 2020
Huh, and I haven’t bought a vehicle from either since before then. What an amazing coincidence!
They built pretty shitty cars anyways so its no great loss
The problem is the companies in China are backed by government funding that allows them to operate at a loss. To be clear, no governments should be spending public funds on propping up automotive companies. It’s a move to try and manipulate the market.
If that were actually the case wouldn’t we want them sold here at a loss so we could drain resources from the Chinese government.
The problem is the companies in China are backed by government funding that allows them to operate at a loss.
So are the Big Three, every time they fail to see what’s in front of their noses and get into trouble.
And they are setup for another fail right now, nothing but suvs on their lots and realistically gas has nowhere to go but up again.
Should’ve let them fall last time instead of the big bailouts.
nothing but suvs on their lots
Not true. They also have trucks
Who are the Big Three to you? Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep is owned by a Scandanavian company.
Someone has to pay for the R&D to make EV’s possible. So far, that’s not BYD. It’s been US and European countries.
I don’t even like buying Chinese shoes because they fall apart before the season ends. Do these shoes spy on us as well ?
Yes but all cars with smart software or trackers such as OnStar spy on you and sell your data. A car that won’t spy on you is that $12000 Toyota pickup that lacks most of these features designed for spy use (which won’t come to the US even though I want one).
Smart shoes are a thing and probably collect data as well.
Okay but how’s the safety, reliability, and build quality? Good, or Chinesium?
It’s easy to build a cheap car when you ignore the human rights of your workers and the environmental damage of your production process.
The car still sucks ass, dude. Literally no one is buying cheap Chinese shit that has a million problems. They’re not even close.
They seem pretty popular here in Australia.
I’d never buy one but I’m glad they’ll bring down the prices of proper cars.
Or our businesses don’t want this type of competition? An affordable and reliable sub 10k EV? This would hurt our businesses and billionaire class, no?
If I needed a new car, and had a 10k EV as an option, it’d be my first choice to look into.
Por que no los dos, though.
Our businesses can’t compete because we don’t want poison in our air/water, cars made with child labor, or factories that regularly maim or kill employees.
It’s okay when we do it because our factories at least looks clean and modern despite all that shit happening anyway.
… are you from the USA?
Yes. As bad as you think we are, China is worse.
You manufacture EVERYTHING in China.
WTF
Translation: I’ve brought into the idea that america is the best and therfore without any evidence I’ll assume that every bad thing that happens is worse in China.
It’s weird that people acknowledge china has made huge investments in modernizing industry while america has not but then act like investing trillions in high tech manifacturing has changed nothing and the country is still just guys in pointy straw hats scratching at the dirt.
Go look at the dji factory, it’s a beautifully elegant engineering masterpiece as or more advanced than any western factory. The design is efficient, robust, and retoolable with workers getting good wages and a range of benefits that rival or exceed similar employment in Europe or the US, most working 9-5 in good safe conditions with adequate breaks.
MiC25 the project to invest in and promote Chinese tech manifacturing is reaching maturity and exactly what was intended and expected is happening. The lesson should be that investing in infrastructure and modernization is a great idea but instead people want to dismiss that and say ‘no surely things are always better here in the west where the only investments we make are bailing out the rich every time they fuck up’
Yes china has a lot of problems like any county, just assuming that everything they do is evil and terrible makes no sense.
I don’t think America is the best either, just less bad than China in most cases.
still just guys in pointy straw hats scratching at the dirt.
As of 2023, 40% of the Chinese workforce is engaged in farming, primarily at the small scale. Your racist implications aside, a large portion of the country is still relatively undeveloped.
China executes more than 1000 people every year, sometimes for things which are protected rights in the US like political dissidence (aka free speech). They are the #1 country in numbers of executions. They kill more people than the next 10 countries on the list combined.
China is the world’s largest emitter of greenhouse gases; the largest source of marine debris; the worst perpetrators of illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing; and the world’s largest consumer of trafficked wildlife and timber products.
The Chinese government regularly spies on its own citizens, censors what their citizens know, and manipulates them with propaganda.
China has 5 times the workforce as the US but 16 times the workplace fatality rate. More than 225 Chinese people die from workplace accidents.
China regularly holds more than 1 million people in internment camps. In these camps many are abused, tortured, raped, or used as slave labor. That is on top of the 1.7 million people in the penal system where torture is regularly used as punishment.
But yeah, they have one or two nice looking factories.
Is that why all the manufacturing of every industry (including most of the parts for the cars assembled in USA) was sent from America to China?
?
Our businesses can’t compete because we spent the last 30 years outsourcing all of our manufacturing and production to cut cost.
Look at the rivers here and tell me with a straight face that we give a meaningful pity fuck about the environment.
Do you have any idea how bad the rivers used to be? A river outside Cleveland used to catch on fire and a river in Chicago used to bubble due to all the rotting slaughterhouse runoff.
You’d seriously consider buying the cheapest car on the market?
Exactly!
Ford when they outsourced to South Africa during their apartheid for cheap exploit labor
All 3 American automakers who already outsourced to Mexico right now to do the exact same thing
Yellen telling China to scale back eco tech production to protect American profits
Ah yes America, the global leader in human rights and environmental protection.
Western auto workers weren’t and aren’t anywhere near ethical with their workers. Also Western automakers do have plenty of wiggle room, but they’re not charities.
Agreed on both accounts. Still us manufacturing is nowhere near as bad with workers rights and pollution as China. The smog is often so bad over Beijing that it blocks out the sun.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/beijing-air-pollution-photos_n_5698a1c6e4b0b4eb759e0155
China has a workplace fatality rate of around 10-15 per 100k workers compared to 5-6 for the US.
https://www.arinite.co.uk/the-worlds-most-dangerous-countries-for-workers
But hey, the US is only half as bad as what they call the literal devil
Lol western nations dint give a fuck about that. They just externalized the environmental costs to China and other poor nations until now and then sold the end result to their customers. The only problem is that that US doesn’t own the company.
Problem is, that goes for expensive cars as well.
At some point we need to decide are we in the West are either (a) importing cheap small cars from China, or (b) stopping poor people from driving. Because petrol is on the way out.
That’s why ebikes and scooters are becoming so popular. Small short range mobility vehicles are filling the gap.
I think that’s the key tbh. Most people aren’t going to need a massive car for going about town. Just something that can carry your shopping and get you to work and back will do.
I just wish I didn’t have to choose between a small car and a car that won’t get stuck in the snow. I don’t know why they think small cars must also have a small ground clearance.
Where is your evidence of these claims
I’ve been online long enough to know a sealion is coming when I see one. Not engaging.
Riiight. Running from providing actual proof isn’t the own you think it is.
I addressed it in another comment
Ahh yes, when a product advertises that it is “well built” that is a massive red flag.
It was an American company doing a teardown of the vehicle that said it was well built.
So now we have Americans reverse-engineering Chinese products?
This timeline is definitely off the rails!
Why is it so shocking? Has the US car industry meaningfully evolved in the past several decades, pre-Musk Tesla aside? :P
Americans forced the world into the capitalist system, and now they don’t like it when China does capitalism. Why are they so afraid of the free market?
Except it’s not capitalism when China does it, it’s socialism. The EV manufacturers like BYD have had massive subsidies from the state to bring those products to market, and that level of state support and intervention is not palatable to Americans.
Political, Climate change and National Security concerns aside, the subsidies are how the US government are about to justify the tariffs.
We can talk about the massive subsidies the US government did and do to the automakers. The propaganda paid with tax money to have a centered car environment.
Each country subsidies its automaker but doesn’t want the other to do so because “Free market™”. It’s at best hypocrite.
So are massive subsidies only socialism when China does it?
The US has been doing that for decades.
yes but then the US doesn’t expect to sell huge quantities of its cars in China and upset the market. Nor would China permit that.
They not only sell huge quantities of cars in China, they export new and used cars to China for sale.
They’re not upsetting the market because they’re already a huge part of it.
Upsetting the market is generally good for consumers. Why exactly would you want to lick the boots of American auto manufacturers when they’re actively price gouging in the absence of any competition?
China: offers affordable EV
US Auto: NOoooooooooooooo!!
I won’t defend the US auto industry, but there are issues in play here that might not be obvious. For example:
Those are just excuses:
- Dumping: US auto industry is enjoying significant protectionism right now, with the excuse of combatting dumping. They have a grace period to catch up, but instead they’re backing off, retreating into their shells. We’re spending hundreds of billions of dollars to give them a chance to compete fairly and they’re throwing it away. I’ll have sympathy if they at least try.
- Surveillance: US auto industry and especially EVs are horrible with surveillance right now. You not only have no privacy, they commonly have cameras inside and can control your vehicle remotely. Those Chinese surveillance devices aren’t doing anything different from anyone else: they’re all violating our privacy and we have no protection. It’s not that I’m not afraid of Chinese surveillance devices but that I’m also afraid of US corporate surveillance devices. Let a have some actual privacy protections we can apply equally and fairly to all of them
Those are just excuses
They might be used as excuses by a complacent industry, but they are not just excuses. They are also valid reasons for concern, and would still be so even if not used as talking points for Detroit lobbyists.
US auto industry is enjoying significant protectionism right now
Regardless of that, China’s government has spent more than a few years subsidizing products and services in order to make their exports dirt cheap abroad, eventually making other nations dependent on them. (See also: the Belt and Road Initiative.) This fits the same pattern, and would still be a problem even if US auto industry protectionism didn’t exist.
US auto industry and especially EVs are horrible with surveillance right now.
Agreed, but once again, that doesn’t invalidate the problem that I mentioned. A foreign adversary having deep, real-time access to the nation’s infrastructure, traffic patterns, sensitive information revealed through conversations and cameras, etc. is a larger problem than the personal privacy issues that already exist domestically.
Chinese surveillance devices aren’t doing anything different from anyone else: they’re all violating our privacy and we have no protection.
The difference lies in where the collected information goes. That might not matter to some people on a personal level, but on a national scale, handing all that info to an adversary nation is cause for concern.
As opposed to them buying it from data brokers? There’s a difference in responsiveness and I’m sure data brokers make a pretense of anonymizing that will need a bit of adjustment, but I’m not convinced it’s as different as everyone is afraid of
As opposed to them buying it from data brokers?
That would also be a cause for concern. Both should be addressed.
Those are probably both totally relevant points but it’s not going to matter because everyone’s suffering so much from inflation that they’ll go ahead and take the bait and buy it anyway. Even those that are aware of the intentional nature of the dumping and aware of the risks of surveillance won’t be able to responsibly buy a car that cost $60,000 when they can get one for 12k.
everyone’s suffering so much from inflation that they’ll go ahead
That, along with a bloated auto industry and terribly underdeveloped public transit. Here’s hoping this turn of events will lead to real progress in fixing these problems.
If so, it’ll be because enough people discover that the problem is the system itself.
I see your reasonable, logical arguments, and raise another Affordable EV.
“well built” … “Chinese” 🤔
a threat to US auto industry? You promise? Cus US auto industry is a climate killing powerhouse of gas guzzling SUV’s. Any politicians wanting to pretend to be capitalist, or to be in favor of the environment, let me buy this car.
No one i know under 50 years old wants a giant truck or suv, and thats all they wanna sell us. My only friends with new car $ bought a small wagon, which is all I’d want myself.
Those huge electric pickups are too heavy for our guardrails on top of everything else; it’s insane and dangerous to let the big three make car culture here even worse.
No one i know under 50 years old wants a giant truck or suv
Where could we even park them if we did? My garage barely fits the two sedans my wife and I need to get to work on opposite sides of town, in a city with functionally no mass transit.
I might not mind owning a single SUV if I used it exclusively for long trips and as a make-shift camping van. But I simply do not have the acreage in my postage-stamp lot size of a three-story walk-up to host more than that. Not that some of my neighbors don’t try, clogging all the sidewalks and curb spaces with their monster trucks.
Then you just don’t know many people. Or live in a bubble. I see people in their twenties driving trucks in the richest city in my state known for being a hyper liberal college town.
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I know so many boomers with fucking monster vehicles. Even my car nut friends daily drive sedans and small EV’s. We’re not idiots or rich.
We’re not idiots or rich
So poor people drive smaller, cheaper cars. Got it.
You’re just in different circles, I suppose.
I think you’re reading into it the wrong way buddy.
I don’t have the money for a big car and don’t need one. Taking out a massive loan just to have a big car would be idiotic.
Just want to remind people that BYD has been in the American market since 2011. They’ve been involved with building industrial vehicles like trucks and buses.
