Found this post super informative as it relates to Mastodon, and thought Lemmy might also benefit from this perspective. I’m not sure I share his optimism, but his points seem sound to dampen some of the alarm bells over Meta joining the Fediverse.
It’s very… basic. One timeline, can’t filter anything out… ton of garbage. No thanks. Holy shit it’s bad.
And half of the feed is people talking about how addicted they already are.
Paid promotion I’m sure — if not, sad that people are admitting they are “addicted” so far.
I don’t know about everyone else here, but my social media use involves me actively trying to avoid The Algorithm™. I subscribe specifically to what I want to see, and actively avoid everything else. You can’t do this in the Threads app. So this is why I’ll be using Trunks or Megalodon over the Threads client.
Every social media platform, UseNet, BBS, and forum – and the planet Earth itself – has had it’s clique of garbage idiots, off in a corner, doing garbage idiot things. They’re inevitable. They’re even here on the Fediverse – in our own precious instances – already. If you don’t engage them – don’t follow that person you hate the most, or sub to the community that stands for everything you hate – things are actually pretty nice. All of this defederation talk feels extremely short-sighted, and is just going to torpedo the Mastodon platform we’ve started to come to enjoy.
If anything, the public declarations of political & social allegiances via choice of instance could just torpedo it all, and attract the trolling idiots like flies. But, we’ve already opened up that can of worms.
Yeah I’ve been taking a similar approach, to social media. I’ve avoided the algorithm.
I mean, I don’t really do social media in the usual sense, never had Facebook, nor Instagram. I did have a Twitter account but I used it to follow certain accounts and didn’t tweet, so it was basically an RSS feed. I used a 3rd party app and only saw my subs, no ads, no suggested/promoted posts.
Same for Reddit, used a 3rd party app, no ads, no suggested/promoted posts, I only ever read a feed of my subs.
My Reddit and Twitter subs/follows have been mostly hobbies, niche areas of interest, products I own, sports etc. no politics or news discussions. So I’ve really avoided being exposed to most of that toxicity I keep reading about.
This is why losing 3rd party apps was a big deal for me. I don’t want to read sponsored/promoted/suggested posts or ads. I’d rather not use the service at all if I have to.
That’s why I’ve fully moved to Lemmy and Mastodon.
Umm…read the article.
I did already.
Very sensible. Nothing wrong with increasing the scope of the fediverse. If things start getting evil we can take steps at that point.
I am just afraid at that point it will be too late… Anything created by facebook is imho quite dangerous and the fact they want to come to fediverse is a bit scary for me.
They’re a notoriously shady business and therefore have a lot of incentives to be a bad actor in the name of profit IMO.
I feel like he’s out of touch. There are many concerns: our data; embrace, extend, extinguish; and lastly, our communities. Meta has already proven in the past few hours that threads are not different from anything else when corpos drop. Within a few hours, accounts like Libs of TikTok, Gay Against Groomers, and other LGBT harassment accounts joined and are still active. Is this what we really want federating with us?
What does spam/abusive use have to do with Threads specifically.
Also, can you justify your concerns? You just stated a few words without saying why it is a concern. This article did a pretty good job of not only stating the same concern words you used, but why the fears are a bit overblown.
Poor moderation certinly has something to do with it.
I don’t know the others you mentioned, but how is libs of tik tok a ‘harassment’ account?
Are you fucking serious? Do you genuinely not know who Chaya Raichik is? Because if you’re acting in good faith and actually aren’t aware of the vile hatred and harassment orchestrated at her hands, you really need to drop her name in the old Google machine and do some reading.
How is the account harassment? How does the account harass people?
I don’t really care what kind of a person anyone is, the question is how the account harasses lgb people
The account is specifically for mocking people, thus the name. They take someone to direct their hate at and that translates to real harassment. It’s built to hurt people, especially LGBT people. Groups built on “destroying the woke mind virus” are a scourge to humanity.
I didn’t know you could move Mastodon servers and retain your followers. Very cool.
Nice to see a balanced opinion, this whole facebook/meta discussion has been pretty virulent at times
I’m preemptively defederating from Threads. But I’m not necessarily opposed to refederating in the future, if Meta proves benevolent. Some bigger Mastodon admins are going with a wait and see approach, but as the sole admin of a small instance, I’d rather not have to rush to defederate if shit hits the fan.
Seems reasonable to exercise caution. Plus, unless you have the means, it’d be a tough spot to deal with resource scaling without knowing what the volume of new traffic will look like.
As a small instance, defederating from Threads could do more harm than good. Denying users access to a potentially large amount of content could cause them to move on.
If you’re concerned about them slurping your content, don’t be. They can just easily set up an instance at billjoejimbob.com and slurp it indirectly. They very likely already are.
I doubt people joining small instances would miss any content from FB/Instagram/Threads/Twitter
The content on reddit is huge but I cut the tie and happier with Lemmy.
Block the shit outta it. Hope no one signs up lol
They had 10 million signups within 7 hours of launch.
So they say
Anecdotally, through what I’ve seen of even just local Twitter accounts (like breweries, reporters, friends talking about Instagrammers they follow, etc), I think I believe them.
There’s a 90% probability that Threads takes over from the failing Twitter. Nothing will change. No one will learn anything. More of everyone’s data will be stollen.
Stop giving big corpo any more chance at 3E saying “no this time it’d be different” no the outcome is the same every time.
Locking post as comments are getting off topic and are not following the rules of the community.
Generally well reasoned and interesting, but, the only thing that defends against EEE is
ActivityPub enjoys the support and brand recognition of Mastodon.
Ima guess that Meta’s support and brand recognition dwarfs Mastodon’s, not re-assuring and rather self absorbed imo.
The problem is that Mastodon’s brand is absolutely nothing and Eugene has been very resistant to popular features. He’s forgetting that the ways in which Mastodon are opinionated are not very popular even among Mastodon essentialists.
Ima guess that Meta’s support and brand recognition dwarfs Mastodon’s, not re-assuring and rather self absorbed imo.
Yeaaah, when I read this I was just like, “Have you been outside of Mastodon lately? The brand’s not so great to those folks that have heard of it in context.” Nearly every time I’ve seen Mastodon come up outside of Mastodon, it’s to complain about it being confusing or only used by tech nerds and there’s nobody worth following there.
And I personally like Mastodon, but there’s no denying the brand’s not reputable to many folks, and it’s probably still relatively unfamiliar/unknown to a majority of folks that don’t closely follow social media stuff.
Basically, none of the B-List celebrities are never going to give up their followings on Twitter.
If the A-List comes over to the Fediverse, we could become a thing as a Twitter replacement. But short of a national stampede, they aren’t coming unless ALL of the sheeple go first.
Bluesky seems to be pretty successful at drawing the “B-listers” from twitter, much more than threads at least. We’ll see if they actually stay but it’s been surprisingly positively received so far, for some reason that I can’t comprehend.
It’s been ‘positively received’ because it’s still invite-only, giving it an air of exclusivity. Plus, it has Twitter’s founder on the board and people really miss what it used to be for…some reason.
Calling Eugene Mastodon’s CEO is kind of a threat. Granted he is Mastodon GHmb’s CEO, but by no means is that what most people think of as mastodon. Then again he’s let the #twittermigration go to his head.
Thankfully I haven’t seen this, yet, from the lemmy.ml guys, the fact that lemmy.world is already bigger probably helps that too. (Well that ant they, allegedly, anti-capitalists).
I’m admittedly unfamiliar with Eugene, so was using the title listed in the blog post.
He was talking to Meta before they announced Threads and he signed an NDA. I strongly agree with @[email protected]’s opinion that the recent popularity Mastodon has enjoyed has gone to his head.
Put plainly, I don’t trust him at all.
You don’t have to. He might have developed Mastodon but it’s all open source, and he certainly doesn’t “own” ActivityPub.
yeah, I wasn’t referring to you, but to the author of the article.
Sounds like mastodon doesn’t mind lying with vipers and is trying to justify it
If threads becomes larger than the entire fediverse, then it’s stupid to not be compatible with them to use their content for the mastodon users. You can also begin to pillage users every time the platform does something stupid with theoretically minimal issues of losing followers.
it already is no? Threads has 15 mil users in 24 hours.
Lol are you serious? What, did you want a little bubble on the internet where corporations don’t exist? What does “open source” mean to you, open to only the entities you allow in? Like the article says, join an instance that defederates every corporate entity or make your own, but don’t blame developers of open source software for keeping it open.
I’d like to not embrace the assholes that helped centralize and control the narrative on their massive platforms of idiot users
It’s not embracing Meta. All it says is, once it is federated, they may be interoperable. That’s it. You could view stuff on Threads and Threads users could view stuff elsewhere (unless your instance defederates from Threads).
Then join an instance that’s defederated with them, or create your own. It’s literally that simple. Don’t shit on open source devs for keeping their software open source.
How am I shitting on open source devs? I’m just pointing out how crazy you’d have to be to think any corporate media participation in the fediverse is a good thing. Yes I can run my own instance but it won’t do much good if the largest AP instances let Facebook federate with them. They’re just trying to capitalize on other peoples work while spending a relatively small amount of money and effort on their own activitypub client. If it fails they won’t care and will just abandon it but if it succeeds they’ll be poaching users and data from the fediverse for years to come. Not to mention bringing those cringe IG and Facebook users around.
Also, Quick browse through your comment history and there seems to be quite a bit of shilling going on for Facebook. Hmmm…
Oh god, “shilling”. Yep, there’s that Reddit paranoia. Everyone who disagrees with me a robot!
There are two topics here, Meta and beans. Of course I’m talking about one of them lmao
And read the original comment I replied to saying Mastadon devs are “in bed with vipers”. That’s what I would consider “shitting on”.
What does reddit have to do with this? Many of your comments seem to downplay the threat these companies are to the fediverse.
Just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get us.
My comments downplay the “threat” because I don’t believe it’s a threat, and if a single corporation joining the fediverse somehow actually destroys it then it wasn’t going to be around long anyways.
If you read all my comments you should know that. I’m not a fucking shill because I disagree with you ffs.
Uh, we need participation from everyone in order for the fediverse to have legitimacy. We unfortunately need those cringe users if we want large scale adoption. Without it everything stays small scale, developers aren’t attracted to the concept and people leave for functioning alternatives.
Unfortunately, I believe the embrace, extend extinguish, model needs to be taken into account.
https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
Here is some food for thought, if you or anyone else hasn’t seen it yet.
Embrace, extend, extinguish is exactly what first came to my mind when I heard about threads planning to federate. I think it is a huge risk.
Everyone has seen it, it isn’t food for thought. It’s a Microsoft playbook from the 90s/early 00s that wasn’t even targeting open source software and wasn’t even successful as a means of targeting competitive freeware.
Dude quit being a dick. You work for Facebook or something? This is a real conversation. This isn’t reddit, this isn’t facebook, this isn’t twitter. We don’t just dunk on people here.
How on earth is that “dunking”? Disagreeing with you is being a dick now? Jesus lol
“Open source” means anyone can use or reuse the source code, it doesn’t require you to show content from entities you don’t trust.
The great thing about the fediverse is that we are all free to create or join instances that have federation policies we prefer.
Exactly. Mastadon devs aren’t “in bed with vipers” because they aren’t somehow closing their open source software to an entity.
None of this has anything to do with Mastodon’s source code though, I don’t know why you keep bringing up open source
Read the first comment in this thread about Mastadon’s devs being “in bed with vipers”
I assumed that was about mastodon.social not defederating and Eugene Rochko saying not to worry about Threads
Eugene Rochko even says to join a server that defederates Meta if you want in the article.
Tell me you’ve not read the article without telling me you’ve not read the article.
Eugen is not the person I would trust for good judgment on this because his agenda has always been user growth-centric, so a Fediverse that resembles Facebook would just be a “yay” moment for him - either way he can still end up with a career by leveraging his role with ActivityPub.
That said, I don’t believe EEE works here, because AP evolved in an environment that already had to compete like-for-like with corporate options. You’ll still log in for the rest of the fediverse if it brings you better content than Threads…
…and it has an edge on that, because these spaces are not designed around herding around industrial quantities of users. They have a natural size at which moderators shrug and close the gates if a big instance is too troublesome, because it hurts the quality of the experience for their own users. This peeves instance admins who want the power fantasy of “owning” a lot of low-quality users, but it also basically guarantees defederation with corporate social, because it’s never been able to handle its own moderation problem other than in a “pass-the-buck” way.
deleted by creator
They didn’t even address what will happen when Facebook starts aggregating data from instances federated with Threads:
- Vote/Like data
- Follow relationships
- Text sentiment analysis
- Behavioral patterns
- Periods of activity
- etc
Heck, not only did this post not address it, it seems like they tried to downplay it.
Facebook is an analytics company. Even if it’s not mission critical to the function of Threads, they will scoop up data sent to Threads, they will use it to create profiles on every single non-Threads user they can, and they will sell that data.
It doesn’t even matter if it violates privacy laws; the laws are toothless to companies as large as Facebook. They’ll just be made to pay a fine and carry on as they are.
Yes, interoperability would be a win, but not when it comes from a company that has routinely demonstrated they abuse every crumb of data they can get their hands on.
Isn’t all of that already available to Meta (and anyone else) via the web UI anyway? They don’t need to be federated for that, they can just use a web crawler. And I assume they are.
Frankly, there are other instances out there that I’m more worried about than Threads.
I’m not sure about Mastodon, but at least for Lemmy, not every piece of information is available from the API or web interface. Some of it is only sent through federation. Namely, who, specifically, voted for something, edit history, probably a few other things.
Does Mastodon just hand over a complete list of everyone who liked a post? Even if it has thousands of likes? That kind of data would be very valuable to a company like Facebook.
Why use a crawler if you could spin up some camoflaged small instances and get the info right via the regular api?
Or create accounts and get the info from the client api like apps?… running a crawler would be far easier than running the largest instance in the fediverse …
What should happen? That’s all public information, they can (and probably do) scrape this already. As does all and any AI project and company.
But it’s probably not legal for them to sell it. The fact that they’ve tricked us into thinking this is normal is part of the problem.
Meta isn’t really in the data SELLING business. It’d be counterproductive to let their competitors have access to all the data they do - it’s what keeps their advertising network competitive. Same goes for Google. They don’t want third parties to have access to your data, they want to be THE company that sells targeted advertisements.
Sell it in bulk to governments for large sums of money for which advertising isn’t their interest.
Oh what makes you think governments need to pay for that? Is free if you’re a big enough market.
I’m surprised that they pay for it. They could just demand it through all kinds of national security laws.
If it’s public information why would it be illegal? If I understand correctly the only thing stopping anyone else from doing it as effectively is Meta’s ability to aggregate the data and find the buyers, and perhaps morals.
If the fine it’s less than the profit they will do it anyways.
I’ve posted this elsewhere in the thread so hopefully it doesn’t feel spammy, but this is from their privacy policy:
"Information From Third Party Services and Users: We collect information about the Third Party Services and Third Party Users who interact with Threads. If you interact with Threads through a Third Party Service (such as by following Threads users, interacting with Threads content, or by allowing Threads users to follow you or interact with your content), we collect information about your third-party account and profile (such as your username, profile picture, IP address, and the name of the Third Party Service on which you are registered), your content (such as when you allow Threads users to follow, like, reshare, or have mentions in your posts), and your interactions (such as when you follow, like, reshare, or have mentions in Threads posts).
We use the information we collect for Threads for the purposes described in the Meta Privacy Policy, including to provide, personalize, and improve Threads and other Meta Products (including seamless personalization of your experience across Threads and Instagram), to provide measurement, analytics and other business services (including ads), to promote safety, integrity and security, to communicate with you, and to research and innovate for social good."
https://help.instagram.com/515230437301944?helpref=faq_content
to research and innovate for social good.
Oh fucking please. What a total absolute load of rat shit, my dear fucking lord.
Simple enough, based on their TOS we just block their instance and they can no longer create a profile/scrape our data. Anyone know how to go about that? If so, lemmy know
So Meta can gather your profile information, likes and follows, as long as you instance federate with Meta’s instance and somebody follows you? Are your likes and follows available through the public api? If they are not publicly available then the federation with Meta gives them an easy access to you information
What’s worse their privacy policy states that they believe that being connected to their network gives them the right to monetize your data (messages, boosts, likes, and follower graph).
jfc read the article. He addresses that.
I am assuming you are referring to Eugene’s post. The way he addresses it is actually fairly misleading. The Threads privacy policy explicitly states that they believe they have a right to monetize any data on any nodes connected to their network.
They already can, everything you do on Mastadon is already public.
I don’t believe it is legal to just scrape data from other servers to use in analytic advertisement data. If it was, then why even build an app at all? If we are the product, then why even do the other work and build your own website?
It is legal. It’s all public info, anyone can scrape it.
So why you are telling me then is we should abolish Facebook and get some real privacy laws, and leave the internet.
The new internet will be in the woods in the middle of nowhere dancing naked on mushrooms! It’s the only place corporations won’t follow
You jest but that’s exactly what it should be
No jest, it’s already one of my favourite activities
