Why the hell haven’t you guys shifted the movement name over to work reform after what happened on tv? It’s not helping
Once I saw a guy arguing for pure capitalism because otherwise the state would have to force people to work with threats of incarceration or whatever.
It’s like some sort of trolley problem delusion. It is fine shoving desperate people into whatever jobs they can get, but only if the Invisible Hand does it. It’s fine if the threat is homelessness and starvation, but only if the Invisible Hand does it.
OK, that’s what you’re against, but what are you for?
Mutual aid, free association, common ownership of the means of production, coalescing into a society where people contribute out of genuine gratitude to be part of it
That is totally legal right now. Have at it.
As we’re all the CIA assassinations.
You’re not actually responding to my point, you’re just reacting
Honest smiles. I’m sure exceptions are sure to exist, but for the majority. When I’ve even been adjacent to them, they’re pretty awesome. I don’t care if it’s a wedding between two wonderful ladies or my dad getting a Russian WW2 M1891. There’s that grin, half not believing, half awe, and half pure childish glee that really can’t be beat. I stand for everyone getting that at some time.
It’s gonna suck most of the time, and some people are gonna need a hand to get there, but damn, it’s worth it.
Very cool.
Very cool.
And you can convince a few dozen Ph.Ds to give your kid a university education in exchange for honest smiles considering they have mouths to feed?
You asked what I’m for, not whether it was practical. Lol
For whatever it’s worth, I’m on the same boat as you with the 1.5 smiles per smile: truly fantastic.
I guess we’ll need to find a leftist or two in academia.
Worker Ownership of the Means of Production.
It is not illegal. My wife works for an employee owned company.
If you truly believe that systemic critique is based merely on what is legally permissable and not based on systemic pressures and forces, then you need to do some reading.
I know people who work for employee owned companies right now and they are making a metric shit ton of money.
What most of the Tankies on Lemmy seem to want is to recreate the Soviets where the Government makes the decisions. That has never been anything but the easiest way to set up a dictatorship.
I can’t speak for everyone here but I’m fine with everyone making a shit ton of money at co-ops. Personally I couldn’t find one for my profession in my city. ☹️
I repeat, If you truly believe that systemic critique is based merely on what is legally permissable and not based on systemic pressures and forces, then you need to do some reading.
No, what socialists actually want is for this paradigm of worker ownership to be writ large across society.
And the reason for that is - it is no measure of comfort to be told “mice are well within their rights to enter the lion’s den”.
Yeah no.
That is not what most here say when they talk about it. It’s immediately “working for a salary is slavery!” (Literally that I’ve been told literally dozens of times now here)
Everyone can agree with the second paragraph, most people here subscribe to the first paragraph, though.
You guys got some Doritos?
If everyone here, as they claim, is not against work, then why call it anti work? Why not call it anti labour exploitation?
For all the claims made in this post, I see a hundred saying that wage labor is the same as slavery, so this is a bit hard to believe
As someone who is legitimately anti-work I have a real problem with people who just want to change things. We’re not getting FALGSC with “work reform” because then there’s no reason to fully automate it.
FALGSC isn’t going to happen overnight, and work reform is a realistic interim solution.
Arguing for lower hours and more pay to match the massive increases in productivity we’ve seen over the last 100 years is totally feasible. And a step in the right direction long term.
FALGSC is currently not feasible, and at this rate automation is only making the rich richer
So much this, even if we saw automation replace millions of jobs tomorrow, it would take years for any meaningful shift to support those out of work. On the other hand, even some conservatives are interested in 32 hour work weeks. Baby steps are the most we can realistically hope for.
“Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism” for those that want to save the time searching.
What even…?
I just learned the term, but it sounds like the society from Star Trek but everyone is Sulu.
We’re pretty far from being able to automate everything
Which is why it’s a goal not a demand.
Thank you for getting it
And we’ll stay that way as long as we think people should have jobs
When I dig my garden I am doing work. That obviously entails no wage labour let alone labour exploitation. Why is it hard to belive people might be against wage labour in its present form but not against fulfilling, self directed labour?
Because getting food from your own garden is cute but absurdly unsustainable for 8 billion people in this world?
Like it or not, factories and large companies are the reason that 8 billion people can love on this planet. Granted, said companies can be quite abusive and a lot of rules are still in place allowing this abuse, but we’re getting better at it, ymmv per country. Either way, abuse is not as bad today as it was 100 years ago or even 50 years ago. If automation and AI continue their current course, we’ll all be working 2-3 day weeks soon as well.
Either way, I get the point, I’m just saying don’t swing too far in the other direction either.
Just an example, take caring for my kids or decorating my house or even working out if you don’t like that one. What do you mean by “the other direction”?
I’m sorry, I don’t understand. You listed child care, and hobbies. What havr those to do with work?
The other direction being this antiwork thing which is highly unrealistic and in reality just a bunch of lazy guys complain about having to actually do work, like everyone else, thinking that somehow magically the world would be so much better if everyone dat on their fat ass
OK so you’re just here to strawman and insult. Thanks for outing yourself.
No I said what my average experience here in this sub was, relating to the original post. Yeah, most people here quite literally simply don’t want to work, and somehow think that goods and resources come into existence magically or something. So yes, I call them lazy because that’s what they are.
If you want to have a serious discussion about work situations needing to improve I’m all for it. I just don’t want to have another discussion about “my vegetable garden will sustain me, the entire world should do this”
Also, I quite literally did not understand what you wrote as you listed childcare and hobbies
There’s [email protected]
Get to work bum. If your job hurts you, better yourself and get a better job. Either way, stop whining.
Enjoying that delicious boot leather?
You wouldn’t know what boots are bum
- 60 seems optimistic
- Plenty of “antiwork supporters” do believe option 1
- Your stance is valid
They may think they believe it, but the lockdowns of 2020 showed otherwise. Unless you’re one of the “lucky” nonneurotypical people with a disorder that makes it possible to just lay around and do nothing, people go stir crazy. Feeling productive may as well be on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. That’s one of the reasons the great resignation happened. Way too many of us are working bullshit jobs, and we got to face that reality head on, and didn’t like it one bit.
Compromise: be the king of Doritos but also have ample opportunity for a job that actually pays a living wage; and good insurance to coincide with said title
Maybe I missed the boat on why we do it this way, but I think one of the first things we need to do is decouple jobs from insurance. Not much sucks as bad as losing a job then simultaneously losing insurance (oh but cobra! No cobra is stupidly expensive for someone out of a job)
Wages would need to go up to cover what was lost, not to mention reaching a living wage, the pay still needs to cover cost of insurance. Also in that vein, our tax brackets need to rise, our current ones are outdated compared to inflation.
This soapbox goes on a ways, but that’s probably enough for now.
Fuck Cobra, and, also, hard agree. Healthcare should just…exist. Accessibly.
Kings fucking love doritos
Yeah, but that interview on Fox News really killed the movement pretty hard lol
Why? An interview with any right wing idiot doesn’t dent their movement
So they lost an argument to Fox and fox are the idiots. Do you realize how stupid you sound?
Behave
It’s hard. I must reply to far left and far right views. Both are the problem.
Because their movement is idiots.
Because they lost all credibility that day
No, a jackass appeared on fox.
You gotta stop doing the propaganda for them, dude.
Yes I agree with that but what matters is how the people saw it. That jackass became the face of the movement, and with that face the movement could only die
Actually given the mass of ‘how to push back against bad bosses’ ‘workers rights explained’ ‘go fuck yourself employers’ et al across the net i’d say otherwise.
Genz is notoriously not putting up with bullshit.
Perhaps in the USA, which may or may not be true. But many of us internationally haven’t even seen the interview. Either way, [email protected] is more appropriate.
A leading figure (well, mod but…) acting like a fool and making the movement sound ridiculous does happen fairly often.
Anti-work is everyone living like a king and eating Doritos and nobody doing hard work.
I would argue: Anti-work is everyone having the choice of living like a king and eating Doritos and nobody doing hard work, if they don’t want to.
Some people enjoy and get great satisfaction from hard work. Most people are inclined to do some form of work (including creative) rather than be completely idle. They should be allowed to do so, if they wish.
Is that right? To the average person, “Anti-Work” sounds like you’re straight up against working, and unless you want to explain this to every single person individually, Fox News is going to keep having a field day misrepresenting your movement.
Yeah, “Work Reform” is much better. There’s this weird trend of massively exaggerating a talking point, as the echo chamber seems incapable of thinking about any kind of optics or moderation
No work reform implies slightly different, which isn’t the point. Any message must make you question the system.
If you’re marketing only to people with critical thinking skills you’ll miss most of the voting population, but you do you.
“Anti-Work” does this better how? I’m genuinely confused
Honestly that mod torpedoing the whole movement with a dumb interview and forcing the rebrand to work reform was probably one of the best things that could’ve happened.
Leftists really suck at marketing. Between that, antifa, and defunding the police, they really don’t seem to know how to put a name to an idea that can’t be misconstrued by an opponent with the maturity of a 5 year old (which, as luck would have it, is most opposition). I’d even argue BLM should be on that list.
Edit to add: global warming.
Black lives matter is the least hyperbolic statement of that movement imaginable. That there was pushback even on that framing speaks more to the vile ess of its opponents than to a failure of marketing.
You might want to put it on your list but it’s the opposite problem to your other examples if anything.
The real problem is that big media (and therefore the prevailing narratives) are all controlled by the authoritarian corporate establishment.
I believe it stems from Liberalism. Class consciousness is on the rise, but newly-class aware liberals aren’t yet aquainted with Leftist theory. These ideas are popular among liberals that are becoming more familiar with leftism but are disconnected from the centuries of leftist progress.
We’re really good at marketing exclusively to other leftists.
Yes, the problem is you create a bubble and look stupid when you talk about anything outside of your bubble.
Personally I am in favour of the former definition, just substitute “othet people” with “automation”
