Making up a guy to get mad at and owning him super hard on
redditlemmy, the pugjesus classicI’m not on Lemmy much and have I talked to like five of these guys.
I’ll take Things That Don’t Happen for 300, Alex
Oh, cool, I was hoping my experiences on Lemmy were just a series of elaborate hallucinations.
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Me too bud
ThIs MeAnS yOu LoVe GeNoCiDe
-actual thing that gets said regularly by morons
Third party voters get all the hate.
As they absolutely should
Management is ordering pizza for the office and sends around a sheet asking what everyone wants.
The third-party voter is the last one to get the sheet.
There are 10 votes for pepperoni and 9 votes for cheese.
The third party voter hates pepperoni, and thinks cheese is a bit boring, so he votes for the anchovies in his heart.
He has wasted his vote since cheese would be vastly preferable to him than pepperoni, and anchovies had no realistic chance of winning. That’s why everyone thinks third party voters are ridiculous.
To make this more realistic:
Management decides that the pizza choices are: sardines or anchovies.
The
workersemployees want pepperoni, but that’s not an option management allows because they are in the fishing businessThe workers want
God, I wonder if some people have ever even talked to other US voters in their lifetime.
God, maybe someone will listen to the voters for once.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx
Oooh a poll! Shall we see if it was funded by a right wing org? Any guesses as to the methodology? 20 participants? Maybe 200?! gasp dare we dream . . . 1000?!
That stuff isn’t usually in the articles for a reason
Where’s the poll that suggests people are ok with the Biden administration’s approach in Israel? Are there ANY polls that support it?
I see you didn’t actually read the poll I replied with. Here, let me help you out:
U.S. adults are divided about whether Biden is favoring the Israelis too much (22%), favoring the Palestinians too much (16%) or striking the right balance (21%) on the Israel-Hamas war. Fully 40% say they are not sure.
It’s Gallup, Gallup is generally reliable.
The issue is that most people do not put a great deal of thought into foreign policy, and thus often have very contradictory views - such as when most American voters approved of a No-Fly Zone over Ukraine after the first days of the war, but if asked if they would support a No-Fly Zone if it had the risk of US jets shooting down Russian planes (you know, exactly what a no-fly zone IS), half of those supporting swapped their opinion.
Gallup is generally reliable, for a pollster, so I looked:
Results for this Gallup poll are based on telephone interviews conducted March 1-20, 2024, with a random sample of 1,016 adults, aged 18 and older, living in all 50 U.S. states and the District of Columbia. For results based on the total sample of national adults, the margin of sampling error is ±4 percentage points at the 95% confidence level. All reported margins of sampling error include computed design effects for weighting.
Each sample of national adults includes a minimum quota of 80% cellphone respondents and 20% landline respondents, with additional minimum quotas by time zone within region. Landline and cellular telephone numbers are selected using random-digit-dial methods.
So, war-dialing and hoping (a) the person picks up (b) the person doesn’t hang up immediately © wants to give their opinion for 20 questions, and (d) yes 1,000 people out of 80 million voters. Also it was two months ago.
Not to mention, the headline is “Approve of Israel’s actions” not “Understands what diplomatic and political issues are involved”.
That’s like the message being “95% of people want ice cream for dinner, so vote out mom & dad and let’s go with the guy in the creepy van”
And yet whether the current level of US support for Israel is correct or not remains deeply divisive
But sure, it’s just “the workers” with their very undivided and definitely coherent view who are getting ignored, not that the general electorate is not a particularly useful political grouping for most issues in modern politics.
Anyway you try to spin it, apologizing for aiding a state engaged an active genocide is really not a positive
No, it’s not. But “I’m going to give power to the guy who wants to offer unlimited support to Israel’s genocide AND start a few genocides at home too, as well as abolishing what democracy we do have in this country and selling out Ukrainians to be genocided by Russia” is not really an alternative that should be taken seriously.
Voting third party also denies the reality of Fitrst Past the Post, and perpetual and well documented trend and reinforcement of duopolies.
The duopole is not a law of nature. It is a psychological effect that the DNC and Reps keep pushing, so you never dare to think outside that box. It is the same like with stock market hypes and crashes. Everybody keeps repeating how they think the system inadvertly works, even though it has not to. Everybody that is not a fascist genocidal mass murderer could agree on one third Party and kick the DNC and Reps asses. But thanks to people telling them it is impossible, you believe it to be impossible. You are gaslighting yourself thanks to your political leaders sucessfully gaslighting you.
This generation of Americans will go down in history with failures like Chamberlain and his appeasement policies. Sucking up to whoever they can, devoid of any will to improve things or demand dignity.
“duopoly is not a law of nature”, is very, very incorrect. It is simply human nature. Market at work. Same Reason there are two “sodas” in any given area with anything else an also ran. Two big players. Just how it works when unregulated.
And the FPTP system is a law of nature? God decided in the US there can only be FPTP, while other countries have different voting systems?
Man if only there wasn’t literal research and political science theories on the topic of how certain voting systems devolve into 2 party lesser evils voting https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger’s_law
Science is a liberal lie, True Leftists™ only trust their GUT.
(Repeating my reply from above, to a similar comment.)
This so-called ‘law’ is a myth. Look at the legislatures of other countries that use FPTP, and count the parties that get, say, more than 5 seats. The UK has 6, Canada 4, Russia 5 and India, my country, 11. You certainly can have more than two parties.
You didn’t even read that link on Duverger’s law. It already addresses quite a bit of what you’ve brought up.
Duverger’s Law is a tautology because, from a critical rationalist perspective, a tautological statement is one that cannot be empirically tested or falsified—it’s true by definition. Duverger’s Law states that a plurality-rule election system tends to favor a two-party system. However, if this law is framed in such a way that any outcome can be rationalized within its parameters, then it becomes unfalsifiable.
For example, if a country with a plurality-rule system has more than two parties, one might argue that the system still “tends to” favor two parties, and the current state is an exception or transition phase. This kind of reasoning makes the law immune to counterexamples, and thus, it operates more as a tautological statement than an empirical hypothesis. The critical rationalist critique of marginalist economics, which relies on ceteris paribus (all else being equal) conditions, suggests any similarly structured law should be viewed with skepticism. For Duverger’s Law to be more than a tautology, it would need to be stated in a way that allows for clear empirical testing and potential falsification, without the possibility of explaining away any contradictory evidence. This would make it a substantive theory that can contribute to our understanding of political systems rather than a mere tautology.
small parties are disincentivized to form because they have great difficulty winning seats or representation
The Green Party of Canada is another example; the party received about 5% of the popular vote from 2004 to 2011 but had only won one seat (out of 308) in the House of Commons in the same span of time. Another example was seen in the 1992 U.S. presidential election, when Ross Perot’s candidacy received zero electoral votes despite receiving 19% of the popular vote.
This is an empirically testable claim that has come true.
All of those nations implement other forms of voting and mixed members representation in their various elections.
Only one of the four countries I listed does not use pure FPTP - Russia uses a mix of FPTP and party-list voting. But even if you only count the FPTP seats, and despite stuff like ballot-stuffing committed by the ruling party, 3 parties got >5 seats.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_the_United_Kingdom
The five electoral systems used are: the single member plurality system (first-past-the-post), the multi-member plurality, the single transferable vote, the additional member system, and the supplementary vote.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Canada
Although several parties are typically represented in parliament, Canada has historically had two dominant political parties: the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party, which was preceded by the Progressive Conservative Party and the Conservative Party (1867–1942). Every government since Confederation has been either Liberal or Conservative with the exception of the Unionist government during World War I, which was a coalition of Conservatives and Liberals.
Russia and India are also fairly recent democracies or “democracy” in russias case, not having the time to have devolved from a multiparty system into a duopoly through FPTP, and Russia has a whole host of problems with oligarchy, corruption and putin changing the rules so he’s the one who’s been in constant power for like 20 years.
But but but! It’s always been the Democrats and Republicans fault. Even though it’s always been this way. Even before recent changes in both parties. Even though it was this way before those parties even existed! /s
Man if only there was some alternative to the British Crown taking all the taxes in the Colonies and some sort of self determination for the people.
You have your souls crushed like the people in Sovjet Russia. The system has no alternative. Obey the system. Stop dreaming. Stop demanding a better future. The system has no alternative. Obey the system.
Oh, I’m sorry, here I didn’t realize “Don’t let fascism immediately win in this election because numerous possibilities and LIVES are extinguished by fascism” was the denial of all work towards other possibilities.
So what was the last election? And what was the election before that? This is the third time now i’m hearing. “This is the election where democracy is on the line. Otherwise we get fascism. Now is not the time to look outside the system…” And you will hear the exact same thing next election again. And then again and then again. All the while the DNC will move to whatever the Reps stood for the cycle before. Remember all the fuzz about Trumps Wall? Well Biden is building it. You think all the stuff about Trans people or the whole nonsense about furries or whatever will be exclusive to the Reps? The Dems will blow into the same horn in a few years, because enough of their white middle class voter base will have been eroded by their economic policies and need a scapegoat.
We see the same shit with “center” and “center left” all over the world becoming more and more fascist. And the Dems already started far right with some gay rights sprinkled in between. But please lets have the same argument in four years, with the goalposts being moved about what we should just accept as the “lesser” evil.
“This is the election where democracy is on the line. Otherwise we get fascism. Now is not the time to look outside the system…”
Yes, it turns out that if you don’t work on things between each election, you get the same issue that you had to deal with last election. But sure - vote in fascism this time! That way you won’t have to worry about having this little conundrum next election. :)
All the while the DNC will move to whatever the Reps stood for the cycle before.
Are you fucking serious.
Please compare the 2012 and 2024 Dem platforms, and get back to me.
Remember all the fuzz about Trumps Wall? Well Biden is building it.
lol
10$ says this is the “The money and legislation had already been pushed through but Biden didn’t use the power he didn’t have to unilaterally stop it” incident.
You think all the stuff about Trans people or the whole nonsense about furries or whatever will be exclusive to the Reps? The Dems will blow into the same horn in a few years, because enough of their white middle class voter base will have been eroded by their economic policies and need a scapegoat.
Do you…
do you not remember what the Dem Party was like on trans rights before the modern day
Fuck’s sake.
We see the same shit with “center” and “center left” all over the world becoming more and more fascist. And the Dems already started far right with some gay rights sprinkled in between. But please lets have the same argument in four years, with the goalposts being moved about what we should just accept as the “lesser” evil.
Cool. Your proposed solution, for this situation, right now, without resorting to “Everyone will magically convert to my ideology in the next six months”?
I slightly misspoke, how certain voting systems devolve into lesser evil voting. FPTP always devolves a 2 party system but something like STV or Ranked Choice open up the field to many more options with little downside.
Everybody that is not a fascist genocidal mass murderer could agree on one third Party and kick the DNC and Reps asses.
Oh, was it that easy all along? Cool, which third party are Democrats and Republicans going to agree on? After all, the voters secretly agree on all the issues, it’s just the mean ol’ representatives stopping us from coming together and singing kumbaya. 😊
Panel 2 appears to be a third party voter.
Third party presidential voters get well-deserved ridicule.
Vote third party where it has a chance and where it doesn’t be pragmatic.
Due to the electoral college a massive portion of the electorate, outside of a few key districts that swing whole states, coyld vote third party without changing the result.
I think about a third of my state who voted Democrat in 2020 could vote 3rd party and blue would still win. There are plenty of 20+ point blue districts.
So for many: voting third party sends a message, usually about a specific policy.
Now, outside the presidency though where there’s no electoral college discarding eberyone’s vote? (Or in those few swing districts?) Different story altogether and I get that. Local elections are usually the only place a chance to win exists for third party candidates.
So for many: voting third party sends a message, usually about a specific policy.
Sure, in some states you can reasonably gamble that other voters will compensate for your ‘message’, but you might as well put that message in a bottle and toss it in the ocean.
The politician that wins won’t give a shit about your 3rd party ‘message’ because they won anyway, and the politician that loses doesn’t matter because they lost. In an election where a 3rd party has no chance of winning your ‘message’ is basically “IGNORE ME”.
Yeah so I generally find most of these tactics appropriate and effective for primaries, which has only happened for President. The rest won’t happen until August.
We are still hard in primary season for the entire House of Representatives, a third of the senate, and like a dozen governors. They all have a calculus to make over how supportive or public they’ll be on issues being protestee.
Regardless a lot of this judgement should be reserved for the general election. I will be interested to see what the landscape will look like and the rhetoric sound like come September.
All fine and good in the primary but relying on the electoral college and other blue voters in your state to let you send a ‘message’ is dangerously stupid and pointless in any presidential election, and doubly so in 2024.
For the record I have only ever personally expressed how I will likely vote for Biden if he makes it to the general. I just understand the ‘message’ people are trying to send and don’t think it is worth trying to stifle or suffocate.
(That and I thought Panel 2 was referring to a third party voter at first, but the feathers are already ruffled now.)
I understand the ‘message’ people are trying to send too. I don’t have any capacity to ‘stifle\suffocate’ that ‘message’- but I don’t mind telling them they’re just tossing away their only real political ‘voice’ to shout into the void.
Any third party that a left leaning person might vote for will only help Republicans to win elections by siphoning votes away from Democrats.
In fact, that’s exactly why they exist.
So yeah, they get hate, because they’re actively trying to sabotage progressive causes and usher in fascism.
Yes because unfortunately the voting system of your country is broken. It’s not your fault, but you have to deal with the consequences of that.
Thanks
Voting third party has the same effect on the outcome as not voting. From the last presidential election, there were 24 times more nonvoters than third part voters.
They blame third parties to suppress their ideas, not because of the negligible effect on the outcome.
The 33% of eligible voters who chose not to vote could have swung the 2020 election if they voted.
Well put: third party voters are often policy focused if not single-issue (and/or extreme). Which paints a target on themselves because the alternative is reaching out to non-voters. And that requires looking into why people don’t vote or what depresses voter turnout.
Which Third Party candidate are you endorsing exactly?
Myself? None. As I have said I am most likely voting Biden if he manages to survive. I supported Uncommitted vote in the primary because that was an opportunity for a concerted and focused effort with a direct policy message.
There are only a few instances and time windows for shaping the policies that the parties and candidates run on. That was one of those times. The next time will be during the conventions this summer.
After that we will indeed be stuck with whatever shit is left on the table to vote for in the General election. At that point nonvoters and third party voters alike will indeed have to grapple with the choices and risks they’ll make. That is when they’ll have to put their money where their mouth is.
But resigning ourselves to that now is premature, if not actually a tacit support for the status quo.
Aw, sorry, in the future, I’ll be sure to give third-party voters plenty of asspats for welcoming fascism.
Still assmad that people don’t want to vote the way you want?
Fascism is fine
-you
Yes, hit the point of my comment right in the middle. Perfectly analyzed.
Truly, the top minds of reddit in this comment section here.
Yes, I remain upset at the prospect of people voting to murder minorities and usher in fascism because it makes them feel good. Sorry that you find fascism such a minor issue, but I understand - people with such flexible morals often do very well for themselves under fascist regimes. :)
Oh, I wouldn’t exactly say I have flexible morals, which is why I vote the way I do. But I’m across the pond, I couldn’t give any less of a shit which wanker y’all vote into office next to be quite honest.
Still, after preaching “just go vote!” for a while (not specifically from you though tbh), I see a lot of “everyone I don’t like is a tankie” and “vote for my candidate, you facist!” which doesn’t vibe well with “just go vote!” if you don’t like their choice of vote. Might feel good to you, but won’t help you.
Hoping people vote against something rarely ever works. And when your candidate doesn’t seem to want to give the voters their reason to vote for him, well… he’ll have trouble.But I’m across the pond, I couldn’t give any less of a shit which wanker y’all vote into office next to be quite honest.
. . . Where to start. Um. Well . . . How’s it goin’ over there? I hear the whole Cambridge Analytica voter manipulation evilness also had some sort of effect there? Some kind of irreversible shattering of some economy or other? You even ‘benefitted’ from some Qanon virii floating over there didn’t you? And got your own anti-abortion protesters, funded and organized by the same rat bastards that do it here, I think. And more asbestos. Mmmm.
A fascist orange rapist over here - again - isn’t going to be good for you, inasmuch as it has an effect. I suppose you might get to see Farage’s face a lot more, so that’s something.
You’re absolutely right, the fact that we’ve been imploring people to take their civic duty seriously is definitely undermined by the fact that we find voting in fascism morally unacceptable. Silly me.
Yes, that was totally the point of my comment.
Anyways, have fun continuing throwing shit on each other across the pond. I’ll be watching with some popcorn.
Aren’t you all busy electing your 20th prime minister for the month?
Haha I love this response. Perfection.
We don’t even have prime ministers. But go on.
Unfortunately my country is filled with right wingers
The leftists I know voted for Biden in 2020. Real well read, organized leftists, not online strawmen. They didn’t like it but they did it.
Of course. If I was American I wouldn’t spend a second campaigning for Biden or telling people “you need to vote!!” online, because I’d rather spend that time unionising my workplace, doing mutual aid, building up communities. Things that build real structural change no matter who’s in power. But on the day I’d still go vote for the lesser evil candidate. It takes a small amount of time. Then I’d go straight back to real work. I think most leftists do the same.
Legitimately yes, that is the actual point most leftists tired of liberals punching left are making.
Actual organization outside the bourgeois state apparatus is far more important, plain and simple. I’ll probably be voting for Biden, but I am not going to pretend it’s “fighting fascism,” that happens on the ground.
I don’t think that you and people sharing your thoughts are the target of the meme. There is an exceptional amount of accelerationist and/or anti-electoralist (they are indistinguishable in outcomes) posting going on. People are trying to discourage voting for Biden AND voting altogether.
I’m not voting for Biden. Nobody I know is voting for Biden. It’s because of the genocide he denies is happening.
If you don’t vote for the guy that denies the genocide, you gonna get the guy that will aknowledge, revel in and accelerate the genocide, together with a sprinkle of killing LGBTQIA+ folk in his own country. Good job.
What if I just died instead of voting? Is it still my fault?
Could you have mailed in your vote before dying? If so, yes. I will blame you specifically.
oooh you are voting, we are truly saved and our problems are solved! why didnt i think of this!
Could it be that threatning Biden with not voting may somehow force him to use his remaining office time to fight an ongoing genocide, by that winning the public opinion of young voters and being in office for another 4 years?
That to me is the a logical course of action.
no, the logical course of action is stopping acceptance of such egregious policies and showing it on the streets. every aristocratic political party has showed us they are not the answer.
“I’ll play with the future of millions to try to manipulate one guy into making an army he isn’t in control of do what I want. This is the only logical recourse”
-🤡
Isn’t the US Israel’s main weapons and freebie supplier?
If he does that, he loses the vote of the democrats that support Israel.
Biden is in a lose-lose situation with the electorate, and is a stubborn boomer. No amount of letting Trump win and get trans people killed will change Biden’s mind.
I get it, I fucking hate Biden too. But it is going to be a disaster if we allow Trump to get elected, just like it was the first time.
The majority of Democrats recognize it as a genocide: https://www.commondreams.org/news/democratic-voters-israel-genocide
He is literally staking the least popular position with his voters.
Don’t forget, Biden also has to get the independent vote. And if Biden takes a strong anti-genocide position, the GOP will bash him for it, and use it as ammunition to call him antisemitic just as they have with the college students.
“you don’t understand! biden has to pander to fascists or else he wont get elected to save us!”
Re-replying since you deleted your original comment:
I’m not saying he should pander to fascists. I’m saying “here is his motivations, here is what his opponents will do, thus influencing his motivations”.
Biden is a piece of shit, that’s well established. I’m saying that he will never listen to progressives, and efforts to get him to listen aren’t going to result in anything.
Our efforts are better used on election reform.
i double posted and deleted one of them, my bad
Smart politics would say GOP bashing Biden is a good thing in this context. Adopting GOP talking points is what gave us our current immigration policy, and that is another liability in his campaign, though much smaller than giving arms to an active genocide.
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I’m not saying he should pander to fascists. I’m saying “here is his motivations, here is what his opponents will do, thus influencing his motivations”.
Biden is a piece of shit, that’s well established. I’m saying that he will never listen to progressives, and efforts to get him to listen aren’t going to result in anything.
Our efforts are better used on election reform.
election reform would be a good thing worldwide, but we’d need more than just wanting it.
I agree with everything you said but it is worth noting that those Dems who support Israel are few and may be easily offset by winning votes from other communities that are outraged by everything happening.
Perhaps I was a bit biased in saying that, as there are some neighborhoods in my city that are predominantly democrat, and they have a number of pro-israel signs up.
why didn’t I think of this!
Because voting isn’t a thing in China
Lmao
has it been working well for you? is that the whatabaoutism i keep hearing about?
Bro, he is calling u a Chinese bot, whataboutism doesn’t apply in the slightest here. If you want to use debate terms, please learn when to apply them.
“it doesnt apply when i’m the one being called out!”
cmon, my dude.
No I’m telling you that that isn’t whataboutism.
Is he calling you out? Yes. Is that whataboutism? No
Whataboutism would be “Russia is committing war crimes in ukraine” “but what about natos expansion???”
His argument is (arguably a very snarky) way of telling you that ur opinion is biased and therefore invalid. Do you notice the difference?
Yeah im voting for the leftist running against Trump. Its not Biden.
Cool, so you don’t care if fascism wins and minorities are murdered. Unsurprising.
Strawman arguments are pretty lame… Something I’d expect from conservatives really
Maybe you should be mad at Biden for not working to get the votes? Not doing whatever it takes to get those votes is basically giving the election to Trump. Dems should know better, since this “bully them into voting” strategy failed last time too.
The system is shit, but you can’t force people to participate in it’s perpetuation.
“We will only throw some people into a wood chipper.” is not a great platform and I understand those who dont want to be complicit.
The American political system is not changed in the ballot box.
What country do you live in? I mean, what’s it like there?
Bad, but unfortunately we are not armed as well.
We do have more than two parties though.
Fair enough.
I truly hope people aren’t stupid enough to be convinced by this “trickle down economics”-type bullshit
The American political system is not changed in the ballot box.
I think it’s fascinating you wrote “in” the ballot box.
Not to mention, the system is literally changed first and foremost by the elections. But sure, biden bad, let the orange chips fall where they may and so on.
If you are in fact able to vote in the US presidential election, I hope you’ll do it and support all the downballot candidates as well.
Oh I’m sorry I made a tiny error in spelling.
You’re very welcome to continue this conversation in my native German.
Ich wünschte, ich könnte Deutsch sprechen. Aber wenn ich könnte, würde ich mich wahrscheinlich nicht zum deutschen politischen System äußern, nur weil ich erstens nichts darüber weiß und zweitens sowieso nicht dort lebe?
How much German election content do you get injected involuntarily into all your news feeds for two years every four years?
And the American election impacts the entire world like no other single national election does. The US influence through culture, trade and interventionism is felt throughout the entire world.
So yeah, I have opinions on that.
Ein fairer Punkt, denke ich. Aber wir schwimmen bereits in Leuten, die Trump helfen, es wäre besser, wenn wir Trump keine Hilfe von Leuten geben würden, die nicht einmal wählen können. Wie die russischen Trollfarmen. Ich wäre daran interessiert, eine deutsche Sicht auf die Wahl zu sehen, aber das ist ein freiwilliges Interesse, denke ich.
“We will only throw some people into a wood chipper.” is not a great platform and I understand those who dont want to be complicit.
And by refusing to be ‘complicit’, they are instead complicit in “We will throw as many people as we can into a wood chipper”.
Not exactly morally praiseworthy.
The American political system is not changed in the ballot box.
Not changed for the better, maybe. But it absolutely will be changed for the worse at the ballot box. Forgive me for not being excited for fascism.
You know who has the power not to toss people into the wood chipper? President of the United States Joe Biden.
And the fact that currently he prefers to have many people being thrown into the wood chipper instead of not throwing some people in himself, should make you very worried about how his policies will look like, when he has no reelection to work for.
Ah, good, you’ve convinced me, I will work towards seeing the fascist who has pledged to never leave office and throw as many people in the wood chipper as possible win.
Well you are working very hard for that. Instead of holding Biden accountable but offering to vote, if he stops being a genocide supporter who runs interment camps at the border and builds the wall for Trump, you divide the people so they don’t take power and get fucked by whoever wins in the end. And with this you are demotivating people to vote in the first place, helping Trump the most.
Congratulations. The American Elites have successfully played you, to do their bidding.
This comment makes me think you would literally slam your dick in a door and then be surprised when the pain of that sets in.
Imagine literally working towards a Trump victory and thinking you’re the one who has finally thrown off the Dastardly Manipulations of the Elite™.
Lol what a shit take.
Don’t try to blame other people for your choices and actions. If you want to live in a Trump America, don’t vote for Biden. Just remember, it was your choice and not something “Corporate elites” made you do.
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No, not remotely accurate. https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism
Oh, cool, another denier of the fascism of Trump and Republicans. It feels like I’ve accidentally walked right into the Young Conservatives Club at the local community college.
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Sorry, was there another interpretation of “You think there’s going to be FASCISM when Trump gains power just because there will be MURDERS? You silly lib!” that I missed?
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PugJesus wasn’t saying there would be no murders of minorities if Trump loses. They phrased things poorly, but what they meant was minorities are going to be thrown into concentration camps which is what the fascist nazis did.
Sarcasm implies you mean the opposite of what you said, generally:
‘Fascism is when there are murders’
Yes. That is not the sole thing about fascism, but murdering everyone not in your personal social group is kind of a big deal in fascism. You making this statement sarcastic does not reflect well on you or your ability to wield the English language. If you wanted it to come across the way you wanted it to come across, you should have said ‘Fascism is about when there are murders and nothing else’.
However, this would have revealed a deep misunderstanding of what your opponent was actually implying, and, ironically, strawmanning them.
Or a temp firm in Macedonia
Idk Trump is checking off nearly every box here https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html
fascism and genocide are currently happening
When these protesters were getting arrested i got so many upvotes for calling it fascism. Oh but Bidens the champion to save us from fascism.
Okay, but that’s the entire reason the “left” in the US is so pointless. They just have to be less shit. They don’t even have to try too hard to avoid a genocide. They still win. But as Trump showed, that doesn’t weaken the right. The right can just say “Hey, look, the leftists don’t do shit! Now if you’d kindly be distracted from our increasing fascism…” Liberals have no recipe against fascism. At best, they just postpone it by one or two election cycles. Like, I’m not saying don’t vote for Biden. I’m glad I don’t live in the US with your stupid two-party system. I’m glad I don’t have to decide whether to vote for everything that’s wrong in that country rn, or the worse alternative. If you think voting democrat is the right move, good on you. If you want to convince others from that view, great. Just, don’t be a dick about it. That “so you’re secretely a fash, hur di hur di hur” shtick isn’t gonna do anything but alienate others further.
Liberals have no recipe against fascism. . . I’m glad I don’t live in the US with your stupid two-party system.
Does anyone saying liberals bad in this thread live in America?
Liberals have no recipe against fascism. At best, they just postpone it by one or two election cycles.
Perhaps you can clear this up by directing me towards the political ideology that has the recipe against fascism?
I highly doubt that you’re gonna like this, but… communism. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe it’s anarchism. But liberal democracy has failed that task time and time again.
Would you like to inform me when and where communism has indefinitely thwarted the rise of a totalitarian regime like fascism?
76% of the nazis killed in WWII were at the hands of the Soviets.
Is this the same Soviet regime that ran a totalitarian society whose primary difference from fascism was the coat of red paint? The same Soviet regime that itself collapsed into modern Russia?
Wow look at those goal posts go!
How so? The question regards indefinitely thwarting fascism, which the other commenter accused liberal democracy of being unable to do. I ask which ideology it is they think CAN indefinitely thwart fascism in a way that liberal democracy has failed to.
First of all, what the fuck kind of standard is that, “indefintely”? At least it doesnt actively lead to fascism. I’d cite the “fascism is capitalism in decline” thing, but since Lenin said that iirc, that’d be like citing the bible to prove the bible.
Second of all, socialists, communists, and anarchists were always on the forefront of fighting fascism. They were the major force in the Spanisch civil war until they lost because fascism is better at the military. They were the ones arguing the loudest against Nazis, which is why they were such a threat that the first concentration camp were made for them. In Cuba, they literally overthrew the fascist dictatorship that was there at the time. Even reformism won out in places like Chile until the USA (you know, that liberal democracy that’s all the rage now) decided they’d rather see a FASCIST DICTATOR in its place. And even though I don’t like the Soviet Union for a variety of reasons, especially once Stalin took over, they were the ones who bore the brunt of the war against the Nazis while the USA were initially only helping for profit. And yes, I am aware that the USSR also played a significant role in letting the Nazis grow to power. Like I said, Stalin (and the system he represented) bad.
To get back to the original topic, since we both evidently disenjoy fascism, we (as in, our respective ideological groups) should maybe join in a united front against it. Not as a centrist “reach across the aisle”, just to work together on this particular issue. And I’d love to do that. But Joe seems stuck in the proud 'murican tradition of panicking at the sight of red flags and siding with fascists.
First of all, what the fuck kind of standard is that, “indefintely”?
Is that not the standard you’re applying to liberal democracy?
They were the major force in the Spanisch civil war until they lost because fascism is better at the military.
That’s not even close to true. The fascists won the Spanish Civil War due to a mixture of outside help and the Soviets literally backstabbing the socialists and anarchists.
In Cuba, they literally overthrew the fascist dictatorship that was there at the time.
Oh, cool. What did they replace it with?
And even though I don’t like the Soviet Union for a variety of reasons, especially once Stalin took over, they were the ones who bore the brunt of the war against the Nazis while the USA were initially only helping for profit.
Jesus Christ.
And yes, I am aware that the USSR also played a significant role in letting the Nazis grow to power. Like I said, Stalin (and the system he represented) bad.
Okay, then you are also aware that the USSR was a fascist regime painted red which engaged in a great deal of ethnic cleansing and mass murder, as well as autocratic governance and the destruction of workers’ political, civil, and economic rights.
So you’ve still not offered a single ideology that has actually managed to hold off totalitarianism in a way liberal democracy has not.
To get back to the original topic, since we both evidently disenjoy fascism, we (as in, our respective ideological groups) should maybe join in a united front against it. Not as a centrist “reach across the aisle”, just to work together on this particular issue. And I’d love to do that. But Joe seems stuck in the proud 'murican tradition of panicking at the sight of red flags and siding with fascists.
Cool. The United Front here is really easy. Vote for the coalition candidate; you know, the one running with the party that has DemSocs and SocDems in it in addition to moderates and neolibs; against the literal fucking fascist.
The only requirement for Evil to win, is for Good people to do nothing.
I guess then it’s a good thing that I’m not advocating for inaction. We just have very different ideas on what to do.
Perfect being the enemy of good, you’ve sided with pointless to remain pure. Such an example of futility and ignorance. But you do you.
… What?
Good choice!
Congratulations on being privileged enough not to worry if fascism wins.
Big bridal shower at a gay bar energy these fake leftists be bringing to the defense of America’s most vulnerable when it involves them doing something other than just showing up at the grammable protests and marches.
It’s astounding. My only comfort is that online communities rarely reflect the makeup of the real world.
One of them told me any amount of collateral damage to vulnerable groups is acceptable as long as massive numbers of white moderates are executed, which will teach them a lesson. Except it will be the leftists who are executed? IDGI. It’s like they love any sort of authoritarianism far more than they love leftist economics.
Surely what will emerge from the ashes will be a stateless, classless egalitarian society and not a fascist wasteland!
And then everyone clapped.
Maybe he didn’t mean it. There’s plenty of overlap with edgy teens and the useful idiot authoritarianism fans.
democrats fund fascists: https://www.vox.com/23274469/democrats-extremist-republicans-mastriano-cox-bailey
and boosted trump into the presidency: https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/
Democrats promote fascists so they can pretend that they’re heroes for running against them. Vote for biden, but don’t fool yourself into thinking that you’re not voting for a fascist, because democrats are absolutely allies of fascists if not outright fascists themselves. They would rather lose an election to a fascist than let a leftist win, 2016 is a prime example of this. As the saying goes, scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.
Define fascism
STFU
I am once again posting that I will never vote for Joe Biden again and you don’t have to either.
This November I’m planning to mark my ballot for the party for socialism and liberation and you can too. There are lots of parties you might be able to align with if psl isn’t your thing.
There are no votes against candidates, only for them. Choosing to vote for Biden isn’t a vote against trump, it’s a vote for Biden and the genocide he just recently denied the existence of.
Votesocialist2024.com !! 🫡🫡🫡
There are no votes against candidates, only for them.
Sure there is. The boomers/evangelical show up in force every single election. They’re gonna do so again this november, and if Trump isn’t stopped we may see an end to what little democracy we have. To prevent that (or in other words go against it or vote against it), we need to get more electoral votes for a different candidate. Third parties are not viable for that.
So it’s either going to end up being Biden or Trump. And I don’t want to see trans people killed, so I’m begrudgingly voting Biden. Have fun with the blood of minorities on your hands because you placed your own need for a clear conscience over the lives of minorities.
There is no way to vote against a candidate. You can’t mark the bubble “anybody but trump”, or “I wish the democrats had run anyone else”.
You can only vote for candidates.
That’s not some metaphor, it’s how the system works.
A vote for Biden is a vote in support of Biden, not a vote against trump. That’s how it’ll be counted.
Support for Biden incorporates support for the genocide he supplies and denies the existence of.
I tried to figure out a polite way to say this and here’s the best I came up with:
You probably don’t want to invoke the imagery of blood on one’s hands when you’re advocating for Biden.
There is no way to vote against a candidate. You can’t mark the bubble “anybody but trump”, or “I wish the democrats had run anyone else”.
Sure you can. I just explained how.
A vote for Biden is a vote in support of Biden, not a vote against trump. That’s how it’ll be counted.
This is just semantics.
Support for Biden incorporates support for the genocide he supplies and denies the existence of.
And lack of support for Biden incorporates support for genocide that Trump will continue and excelerate, in addition to the death and other harm that will come to minorities in the U.S., as well as the potential end of what little democracy we have.
It’s a catch 22, and you’re choosing the worst option.
You probably don’t want to invoke the imagery of blood on one’s hands when you’re advocating for Biden.
Blood is on the hands of every taxpayer. I’m strategically voting to reduce that amount of blood. You’re doing nothing to reduce it, and potentially increasing it.
There’s some really flawed reasoning going into your ideas here. I’m gonna go way out on some limbs and try to enumerate the different stuff that seems to underpin your ideas, but if I get something wrong feel free to lay it out.
If you’re considering any vote that isn’t for trump to be against trump than my psl ballot is against trump too and voting “against” trump is a meaningless distinction.
If only a vote for a candidate that has a chance at beating trump counts as a vote against him then unless the polls change somehow your Biden vote isn’t a vote “against” trump.
If you’re suggesting that only a vote for the candidate who has the best chance to beat trump counts as a vote against trump, you’re discounting the fact that Biden doesn’t have to be that candidate. He could still step down or not be selected at the convention.
It is not semantics to be clear about how the electoral system works. Votes are for candidates, not against them. It’s important to recognize that because parties will look at vote totals to see what is acceptable political action, messaging, etc.
That’s not semantics, it’s how the system works. It’s not a semantic distinction because opposition to one candidate does not mean support for another, but voting for a candidate indicates support for them and their actions and platform.
The reason that’s important is because a person has to both pick one of the understandings of voting for Biden in opposition to trump that I laid out above (or some different one that I missed!) and accept that their vote for Biden is literally a vote in support of his aid and denial of a genocide that we see disgusting images of everyday.
The problem with waiving your hands about what trump is gonna do is that almost every American made it through trumps term. They saw how he operated and what he did. You have a hard time convincing a person that the president who didn’t do a genocide is gonna be worse than the one who is at this very moment supplying one and denying its existence at the same time.
I don’t say that to defend trump, but to illustrate how that line of thinking opens you up to some pretty straightforward critiques from a person who actually is considering voting for trump.
That’s who you wanna convince, right? The undecided voter? How do you expect to convince someone who can remember no genocide when they compare it with the presence of a genocide?
It’s not an enviable position.
I think you have a deeply flawed and warped worldview if you would say the blood of Palestinians is on the hands of every taxpayer. Americans should be angry that a genocide is being committed in our names, but we bear no responsibility for it because despite a majority in favor of ending arms shipments and immediate ceasefire, Biden continues on.
And you would have me vote for the man who will aid and deny a genocide despite it being universally unpopular? Because the other guy is worse? The other guy who was already president just four short years ago and didn’t do what Biden is doing?
No.
We are given a chance to record our political will this November and mine won’t be in favor of Bidens genocide.
Hey bloodfart, the only reason I can still have a job and access healthcare in a lot of places is because of Biden working to reverse Trump’s anti-trans stuff. I get that you feel all high and mighty telling people that folks like me don’t matter enough but this shit is kinda important to some of us.
Theres a story I like called the ones who walk away from omelas. It’s pretty good.
If you’re considering any vote that isn’t for trump to be against trump than my psl ballot is against trump too and voting “against” trump is a meaningless distinction.
The only currently available candidate that stands a chance is Biden. I know you cover that in your next sentence so:
If only a vote for a candidate that has a chance at beating trump counts as a vote against him then unless the polls change somehow your Biden vote isn’t a vote “against” trump.
Biden has still has a chance of beating Trump. The polls are horseshit.
If you’re suggesting that only a vote for the candidate who has the best chance to beat trump counts as a vote against trump, you’re discounting the fact that Biden doesn’t have to be that candidate. He could still step down or not be selected at the convention.
If that were to happen I would be elated.
It is not semantics to be clear about how the electoral system works. Votes are for candidates, not against them. It’s important to recognize that because parties will look at vote totals to see what is acceptable political action, messaging, etc.
You can say what you like, but this is still just semantics. I understand what you’re saying is technically correct, but you’re missing the point of what is being said when somebody says they are voting against something.
You’re ignoring the intended meaning and focusing on the technical mechanics.
and accept that their vote for Biden is literally a vote in support of his aid and denial of a genocide that we see disgusting images of everyday.
A vote for a candidate is not a blanket support for all policies and actions they make.
from a person who actually is considering voting for trump.
Then you’re an even bigger fool than you initially let on.
That’s who you wanna convince, right? The undecided voter? How do you expect to convince someone who can remember no genocide when they compare it with the presence of a genocide?
This isn’t my job. And you’re not who I’m here to convince.
I think you have a deeply flawed and warped worldview if you would say the blood of Palestinians is on the hands of every taxpayer.
Every single tax payer is ultimately sending their money to the federal government, who then uses that money to bomb and kill Palestinians. Most states gave police training ops with the IDF.
That’s not a warped view, those are the facts, and it means blood is on all of our hands.
despite a majority in favor of ending arms shipments and immediate ceasefire, Biden continues on.
And yet we pay our taxes, which kills Palestinians. You bear responsibility just as I. You can’t avoid that anymore than you can avoid a Trump/Biden winning.
If you’d be elated that Biden stepped down or that the convention put someone else up, join me in telling everyone that they don’t have to vote for Biden. That’s how you get the thing you want. You commit to not voting for Biden.
A vote can only ever be interpreted as blanket support for the candidate’s policies and actions. You don’t get to say “i like Biden but not his border detentions”, you get to say “Biden”. Consent to the candidates program is part of casting a vote for them and if you can’t stomach going on a permanent record as saying “I support Bidens genocide” then don’t vote for him.
I am not considering voting for trump. I decided sixteen years ago that I wouldn’t vote for Biden again and am planning on marking my ballot psl this year. As I wrote, I invoked a person considering voting for trump over Biden to illustrate how difficult it is to portray trump as a clear danger more important than an ongoing genocide.
I asked if that was who you were trying to convince because it’s either undecideds, nonvoters or me and you will never convince me to vote for Biden. You said you’re not here to convince me, so who is it, undecideds, non voters or some third group?
If you really believed that the blood of innocent people was on the hands of every American due to Biden actions you wouldn’t be in here telling people to vote for him.
If you believed that you were made a genocidare by his disgusting rhetoric and material support you’d be opposed to him. You’d be in the streets protesting or campaigning to end support to israel or any other number of other actions but instead you’re on the internet trying to advocate against doing the bare minimum to stop Biden policy that you say taints us all. Media can say all kinds of things about protest movements and the White House can deploy its press secretary to dodge questions about crackdown on antiwar actions but neither can deny a vote cast and counted.
Make your voice heard to them with the only device given you that can’t be manipulated or deepfaked or covered up. Vote third party this November.
deleted by creator
join me in telling everyone that they don’t have to vote for Biden. That’s how you get the thing you want. You commit to not voting for Biden.
The error in this is that you are relying on boomer who’s supporting genocide to do the right thing. Be a gambler all you like, I’m not going to gamble with fascism. It’s shortsighted and will get overall more people killed.
Every fucking day Biden’s campaign team sends me emails asking for donations, and they send me like 8 every day. And every time I respond with imagery of dead fucking bodies in Palestine. And do you know how they’ve responded? They fucking haven’t. They know they’re losing votes because of this. They know they’re losing ground because of this, because every other email from them is them complaining that they are getting out fundraised by Trump.
But they don’t even give enough of a shit to have one of their lower level lackeys from their campaign team respond. They truly do not give a shit. And you’re gonna trust them to do the right thing and step down? You’re gonna trust genocide supporters to do the right thing?
A vote can only ever be interpreted as blanket support for the candidate’s policies
Not so. A vote can be interpreted a million different ways. It’s a number, not an essay of love. It is a statement saying “of all of these choices, X is my preference”. Trying to decipher any more meaning of that requires more data which isn’t captured in an election.
How do you tell the difference between a voter who chose a candidate at random versus one who chose them because they were best friends? You can’t.
You don’t get to say “i like Biden but not his border detentions”, you get to say “Biden”.
Sure you can, you just did. You’re comparing a fully articulated thought to a vote, of course they aren’t going to match.
As I wrote, I invoked a person considering voting for trump over Biden to illustrate how difficult it is to portray trump as a clear danger more important than an ongoing genocide.
It isn’t difficult to illustrate how much larger of a danger Trump is:
You said you’re not here to convince me, so who is it, undecideds, non voters or some third group?
Anybody fence sitting.
If you really believed that the blood of innocent people was on the hands of every American due to Biden actions you wouldn’t be in here telling people to vote for him.
Why not? And it isn’t just Biden’s actions, it’s pretty much every major political action the U.S. has ever taken since it’s inception. And word of advice, if you’re trying to convince people, starting from a position of “you don’t ACTUALLY believe X because you said Y” is just silly, and a waste of everyone’s time.
If you believed that you were made a genocidare by his disgusting rhetoric and material support you’d be opposed to him
I’ve already explain that’s not how this works. It’s a two party system.
You’d be in the streets protesting or campaigning to end support to israel or any other number of other actions
I’m trying not to get shot by our police state and widowing my disabled wife. So yeah, fuck me I guess.
Make your voice heard to them with the only device given you that can’t be manipulated or deepfaked or covered up. Vote third party this November.
I will not be handing Trump another victory, no thank you. It was a disaster the first time we decided to botch it in 2016, it’s going to be even worse this time.
Jokes on you, I’m not voting for the sense of smug superiority. No lives matter, etc. /S
You’re own post history is a pretty clear example of liberals hating leftists more than fascists
There are basically no right wingers on Lemmy.
Liberals are right wingers. There are basically no republicans on Lemmy though.
One liberal so far that didn’t like a member of an internet community not playing America’s dumb “liberals are our left wing!!!” game.
This is Lemmy.world, on a PugJesus thread no less. Of course there are going to be liberals thinking they are leftists.
You know what I mean.
My point is, complaining about conservatives or fascists on Lemmy is 100% preaching to the crowd.
Sure, I also think left-punching on a mostly Liberal instance like Lemmy.world is also mostly preaching to the crowd.
“You are own post history…”
Sigh
Some people are not native speakers
Some people are dyslexic or have other difficulties with writing that they can’t help
Sometimes people just make mistakes, like you did two comments before this one where you wrote “its” instead of “it’s”
You’re not better and this isn’t helpful or kind
I am better. Its/it’s is the only one that flips the norm and is therefore wrong too.
Great response thank you for the insight
They don’t even seem to be liberal, they’ve made posts criticising the dems for exactly the same reasons other leftists are.
It just seems like a leftist arguing with leftier leftists because the right wing doesn’t appear to have any major presence on lemmy
All that
OR
Horseshoe theory.
Horseshoe theory is a thought terminating cliche.
You’re mostly correct. PugJesus has stated that they are a leftist, but reject Dialectical Materialism, so they aren’t a Marxist. Claims to adore Marx but seems to decry every single movement to put his ideas into practice, no matter the circumstance.
PugJesus has denounced pretty much every existing Leftist movement, such as the Black Panther Party, along Ultra-pure terms, but only treats liberalism with nuanced critique, so it’s difficult to believe them to be a genuine leftist and not just a progressive liberal.
You know, generally speaking: a person being consistently and demonstrably anti-leftist just means they are anti-leftist. Until there’s evidence to the contrary further analysis is a waste of time and energy.
Yep, I agree, just wanted to point out that they identify as a Leftist, even if they don’t practice it.
Yeah fair enough. In layman’s terms, I would say they were a leftist. Maybe not as educated as they should be, but the heart seems to be in the right place.
I totally get why they don’t fit a more strict definition than mine though.
Thank you for the more in-depth research and information too
They’re both running against fascists, lol.
