I’m not sure if this is the right community for this question, but it says “no stupid question” so here goes. I’m an Israeli who now lives in the US, but I am considering permanently residing in the US or elsewhere (perhaps somewhere in Europe or Canada) because I’ve become kinda disillusioned with Israel for a variety of reasons (the war in Gaza being one of them, the erosion of democracy by Likud being another, and etc) but is that cowardly to leave? Should I go back and try to change society or should I just leave for good? Thanks for your time.
The only thing you can actually change is yourself.
Holy defeatism, Batman!
I changed my bed sheets on the weekend. Check mate.
That’s a huge NOPE. You can organize, unionize, fight
In general I agree but this is Israel we’re talking about here.
Is leaving Israel a good idea? Yes.
Is the US a good place to move to? That’s a more interesting question. We have some issues too.
We have some issues too.
Very true. But so do Europe and Canada.
Canada is on track to elect a populist conservative PM who is anti-trans, anti carbon tax and anti taxing the rich. Shit fucking sucks right now.
Yeah, we in Canada aren’t having the greatest time unless you already own a house or are very well off already. No working class person is gonna be buying a house without god tier credit and skimping on everything as much as possible and even then itll be insanely hard. Rent? Went from 1800 for an old but well maintained 3 bedroom in 2017 in a nice neighbourhood to 3 fucking grand for a run down shit hole 3 bedroom in a sketchy neighbourhood with a slum lord. That was mid 2022. Shits only gotten worse since then.
Where I live you basically have only 3 options for work. Minimum wage like grocery stores, fast food etc(which are 90% TFWs cause nO oNe WaNtS tO wOrK). Government jobs for people with an education. Construction/camp jobs if you want more than minimum wage without a degree, but your old age is gonna be worse than it already is due to trading your body for a higher wage.
I’m all for good people coming here, but make sure you know what you’re getting into first. It’s fucking expensive to live here unless you wanna live in a shit hole small town (which has its own hidden expenses that eat into the savings on rent)
Don’t forget about even more issues in a bunch of smaller places, because every state and local gov is fucked at some level
It is cowardly, but the amount of good you can do is much greater while you’re alive and healthy. Cowardice is an evolutionary trait. It helps us survive. Don’t let it become guilt. If democracy has truly eroded and Israel is beyond redemption as you hypothesize, then there is nothing you could have done as an individual to begin with.
How is looking out for yourself cowardly ? Especially with what Israel is doing.
The brave thing to do, conversely, would be to return to Israel and do everything in your power to make this catastrophe stop. Door to door activism, arranging speaking events, educating youth, protesting in front of the Knesset. Throw your body into the machine until the gears stop turning.
But not everybody will, and not everyone is even capable of doing so, nor is it the only option to create a better future.
the Earth is huge go start over. People die crossing borders. No one wants to cross a border into a warzone.
My family left Iran before I was born and I’m grateful they did. What could we have done to change the country from within? Unfortunately nothing.
It’s your choice.
The whole “be the active person who stops the riches from ruining earth” trope is a lie.
The current US is just as bad as Israel if not worse.
All the losers who either flunked high school or flunked, but had daddy to pay their way have brought fascism back en masses.
If you have the luxury to move to Sweden, or the Bahammas, as far as I’m concerned, do it.
You’ll be in a better place when Israel nukes Iran, WWIII pops off, and the US cripples the internet/critical infrastructure around the world.
There is no changing a society built upon colonization. Many have tried.
If you have the opportunity to go to Europe or Canada that is definitely a more ethical choice.
There is no changing a society built upon colonization.
Europe or Canada
ikr. i lold
There is no changing a society built upon colonization. Many have tried.
How does South Africa fit into that perspective?
They violently expelled the colonists after trying to make peace with them for a very long time.
Read up a bit about Mandela he’s got another chapter after the peaceful one.
That’s changing the society that I argued against. Also I’m pretty sure majority of land ownership in south Africa is still owned by whites.
Maybe ask the Canadian natives how well the peace talks went. Europe is where the colonists started not sure what you mean by it.
After the revolution many ANC members got bribed into being stakeholders leaving white people still in power. The ANC’s corruption however is now degrading and they are losing votes in the election.
After dismantling the colonist empire a country doesn’t magically become utopia. It will take many years for it to build up. But while being colonized it can never start that process.
I think your trying to argue with someone that isn’t me. South Africa changed for the better. I never said it was perfect. Just that decolonization is possible. I never said shit about Canada.
Bruh wut
Yeah, this isn’t something that any of us can decide for you. And any views will be clouded by how people think on the Israel-Hamas conflict.
Ironically I’m firmly in the middle on the conflict compared to a lot of what I’ve seen from the online left, but compared to most israeli policymakers, I am far left. It’s weird.
To be fair, the current Israeli government has far-right members in it, so a centrist would look far-left in comparison!
Yeah I’m just center-left, but that’s “far left” or even “extreme” left in the Israeli politics now…
This is a deeply personal choice. Don’t let other people decide for you. Think about how you want to live for the next 5, 10,15 years and what you want to spend that time doing.
I didn’t read this as OP wanting others to decide for them, but to help them think things through; maybe get a new perspective.
There’s certainly nothing “cowardly” about leaving. Live where you feel comfortable being. Wherever you feel happy.
If your wish to change things is the only thing that makes you want to go back, be honest with yourself, do you actually have the ability to change anything?
Probably not
Do you want to try to change anything if you did have the ability?
If not, and you don’t plan on living there. then it just comes down to whether citizenship has some kind of positive for you like being able to freely travel or something like that.
Well I’m fairly politically active, so kinda
As a Russian Jew who fled the Russia in the 1980s, my family moved for our safety and opportunity. Countries don’t deserve reverence just for being countries. We can be proud of our heritage without having to show allegiance to a nation state. Especially, when it is using our ethnicity/religion to brutally wipe out and massacre a civilian population.
Just do what is best for you and your family.
I’ve quit jobs due to ethical disagreements, I’m sure I’d leave my home country if things got too bad. It wouldn’t be the country i grew up in anyways.
You do you, people will both agree and disagree with you no matter what you chose.
Nobody can answer this question for you but I think to the countless examples of people not “getting out while they can” who are now–or were until their death–forever trapped in a bad situation that people today forget wasn’t that bad even within living memory
Is it right for you? I don’t know
Is it cowardly to let a sense of national loyalty compel you to be exposed to the mechanisms of government wielded by untrustworthy actors? No, and anybody saying otherwise is lying to you at best; lying to themselves at worst
Inb4 any what aboutisms: nothing I’ve said here is specific to any country
So of course in the end it should come down to what you want to do and where you see yourself living a happier life, and not what people on the internet think you should do. However, purely from a “making the world a better place” perspective, I’d recommend not returning. I get the idea of trying to change society from within, but frankly I think Israel in its current state is beyond saving. The sense of invincibility, among other issues, is too much for simple activism to fix; the country as a whole needs the Nazi Germay treatment (the de-Nazification part, not the war part). At least by not being in Israel you make sure your tax money and children aren’t used in genocide.
I repeat, do what you feel is best for you, but to directly answer your question your absence does more to weaken the Israeli Apartheid apparatus than your presence. Do vote though; definitely vote.
I think Israel in its current state is beyond saving
I think the fundamental issue with Isreal is that it was started as an ethnostate with the national religion explicitly endorsing their own population as “special” and “chosen by God”.
That ideology would never be compatible with a modern cosmopolitan liberal democratic society. All races and religions and people should be of equal worth. Any ideology that views itself as somehow special would always degenerate to apartheid and brutality.
Add in the fact that Jews are some of the smartest and most industrious people on the planet and you have a very dangerous country. You mix willingness and capacity and you get action- what we are seeing in Gaza today, and really what we’ve been seeing for decades.
I guess that is a long winded way to say, I agree. Israel in its current manifestation cannot be saved. It would require a total deconstruction of their ideology and to be frank, that probably isn’t happening anytime soon.
Maybe after WW3.
second (third (fourth)) the comments this being a personal choice
but “thanks” (/s) to the diasporas, you don’t have to limit your options to just the US (or Europe) – there are Jewish communities solidly established all over the world (your limit will be your language skills more than anything else)
I speak Spanish as well as English and Hebrew, so I guess there’s always Argentina or Chile.
Argentina is great, but wsit till Milei gets out of office. This far right nut jobs are dangerous.
(off topic: if you want to use your Spanish and get in some historical tourism, hit up southern Spain – the areas that were under Moorish control)
