We’ve all heard it before: People claiming Linux isn’t a viable alternative cause you can’t run it without using the command line.
I decided to test that. Now there are several distros aimed at new users that have preinstalled GUI tools so you don’t have to touch the Terminal. But I wanted to see if that’s also possible on a distro not specifically aimed at fresh converts. The oldest distro with a large userbase, which a lot of people consider to be a “standard” Linux, is Debian, so default Debian with Gnome is what I’ll use.
I consider “running an OS” to at least include booting it with full disk encryption, starting applications, connecting to a network, browsing the web, file management, installing updates and new software (both from the repos and third party sources), installing necessary drivers, setting up printing and scanning, and adjusting the looks and behaviour of the user interface.
So generally anything you’d be able to do on Windows without opening Powershell, CMD, Regedit or a text editor.
I guess I’m telling you nothing new when I say that you can install, boot, launch apps and browse the web on Debian without the command line.
It comes with a pre-installed software center, printer and scanner setup works out of the box from Gnome’s settings.
Here’s where it gets a little trickier: Scrolling on Firefox is rough, cause the preinstalled old version doesn’t have Wayland support enabled. So you either have to enable Wayland support or install the Flatpak version of Firefox.
To enable Wayland, you have to write MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1 into /etc/environment. But the file manager doesn’t let you edit system files without starting it as root from the command line. To add an “edit as admin” entry to the context menu in Nautilus, you need the nautilus-admin package which isn’t available in the software center. It can be installed with Synaptic, a pre-installed GUI frontend for apt. But you still need to edit a system text file, which goes against the spirit of this challenge.
The other option requires enabling Flatpak for the Software Center. You can do that by installing gnome-software-plugin-flatpak using synaptic, then heading over to https://flathub.org/setup/Debian to download the flathub repo file which can be installed with a double-click and a reboot.
Note: Beginner-friendly distros ship with a newer Firefox version and Flatpak support out of the box.
To install any compatible binary on your system (like the Universal Android Debloater, for example), just copy it to any place you like. Install the menu editor alacarte and use it to add a menu entry for the file. Now you can launch it from within Gnome by clicking on its icon or using the global search.
Another issue is that during the boot process, you’re already presented with the command line running boot messages by you, and the password prompt for the disk decryption is also on the command line. Also, the 5 second Grub countdown is kind of annoying. To make this prettier, we need to install grub-customizer, launch it, set the grub countdown to 0 and add the word splash at the end of your kernel parameters in the settings. This activates the “boot-prettifier” plymouth which is pre-installed but not activated by default. Again, pushing the boundaries of this challenge.
Note: Beginner-friendly distros come with pretty plymouth boot enabled by default.
To enable the non-free nvidia Driver, you need to enable non-free software during the GUI installation or in the Software Center settings, then install nvidia-driver from Synaptic, and reboot.
Note: Beginner-friendly distros come with a one-click NVidia driver install
To install Steam from the Debian repos, you’d need to enable Multi-Arch first, which isn’t possible without the command line. Using the Flatpak version is your other option.
Note: Some beginner-friendly distros handle this for you as soon as you install a package that depends on multi-arch
tl/dr: It’s possible to run and administer Debian for standard tasks without touching the command line. It’s just generally faster to use the terminal if you know what you’re doing.
Distros like Ubuntu, Mint, Zorin or Pop!_OS (possibly also Manjaro which I have no experience with) remove the remaining roadblocks. The only time you’ll always need the command line is to fix issues you have with help from other users, because it’s much, much easier to just post the right terminal commands online than to guide you through whichever GUI you might be using.
Anyone who’s ever followed a Windows troubleshooting guide knows what I’m talking about.
It reaaaally depends. Say the person only needs a browser, once they or someone installs the OS, they can just go to firefox and get started doing whatever they do. If they want to play some games then they might need to learn how to get steam, wine, lutris and stuff installed. However, some distros like Bazzite has that installed. I guess it all depends what they want to do with the computer and how much they want to play around with it.
Is it possible to do work in a shed without using a drill?
It is good of you to do this work and post your findings, so no offense intended, but this command line meme is better off not being spread. The terminal is a tool and should be used when it’s needed. Time spent worrying about this is time that could be spent making it easier to understand.
I was introduced to the terminal by a friend so I don’t know of a good starting tutorial for newbies. I wasn’t interested until I saw you could use the output of one command as the input of another command using a “pipe”, the | character on the keyboard.
You are right that the terminal is a really useful tool. But for the average user, the terminal is intimidating.
No other OS works like Linux in term of UX. You can use iOS or Windows without a command line all your life.
As this post describe, it is next to impossible with a Linux Distro.
For the people that want Linux to be mainstream, this is an important hurdle to go over.
I know that Windows sometimes shit the bed where you need to edit a register or use PowerShell, but for the vast majority of people, it won’t be needed ever in their life.
I once saw an adult struggle to navigate the cursor to a button. It’s a trivial task… to most people - so that’s only true when you know how.
The terminal is not innately intimidating, it’s just new - it’s not something that they were taught in school. That’s where the hurdle actually is.
The CLI has lots of hurdles. Such having a blank screen with no prompts. Where the GUI shows the options you have. And 1 click to set the option. And how to unset the option is obvious. You only need to half remember a feature. Not precisely memorise and type command exactly or it will fail. Or worse, delete something you need. The GUI is preferred by the vast majority for good reason.
This is not true, specially with atomic distros. You can get away with doing everything via GUI. I love my terminal, I can shave off hours of GUI with a few commands, but my kids and wife are also Linux users exclusively, and none of them have ever touched the terminal (yet).
I think it’s perfectly possible to use Mint, Ubuntu, or Fedora without the terminal. But a lot of online tutorials are like, “Just run this command.” because it’s faster.
I’m an experienced terminal user but I know with my Steam Deck, I barely ever use it. Really the only time is when I want to update packages quicker than using the GUI tool. But you could successfully use a Steam Deck without ever launching into Desktop mode, much less opening a terminal.
The command-line is not just faster, it is also much more universal.
You and I may use different distros and different desktop environments. If you want to create instructions that tell us how to do something using the GUI, there is an excellent chance you need different instructions for each of us. If you instead give us CLI instructions, there is an excellent chance that the same instructions will work for both of us.
The CLI is not faster for everyone. Especially non IT users who don’t know any of the options and would have to search the web every time. And there are so many commands the CLI is useless at. Graphics and presentations a big fail. And few people use CLI for email or spreadsheets.
GUI users have a chance to work out how to use a new GUI 99% of the time, as it is all familiar. No exact syntax to type perfectly or it will fail. On other occasions, web help tells you where an option or command is. There is no need to entirety change the way you work, just for a few times when learning new software.
I run mint on my “home entertainment center”. Just an old laptop with a wireless mouse and keyboard.
Granted I don’t use it for much, but once I had mint on it, I’ve only used the desktop environment. Mostly because I’m leaning back in a slothful, shameful lump, and this is not conducive to typing. So I spend way too long pecking at things with the mouse.
Pain in the ass? Yes.
Way more tedious and time consuming? Yes
Possible? Also yes
I don’t think you really do anymore. I’d consider myself an experienced Linux user. I’ve been using it as a my desktop OS for over 20 years. I’ve also used Linux heavily through my career and am completely comfortable with the command line.
With recent installs of Fedora the only thing I use the command line for is the initial setup of the multimedia codecs. After that I haven’t been required to touch it.
I used to consider a terminal required to keep your desktop Linux system running. Now I look at is as an optional install for programmers.
Nowadays, pretty much yes. I more or less use the command line as much as I did on windows. Of course things like installing software via the repos is more efficient via the command line, but most GUI tools will work perfectly fine for most people.
Debian’s great but not the best choice here.
Yes. I’ve been using Linux for over 10 years without touching the command line. I used Ubuntu up to Unity, then switched to Kubuntu and Plasma. I’m not in IT, so I don’t need IT stuff. It all works by GUI. People who haven’t tried it might say it’s not possible. But they are not speaking from experience. Some others, not interested usability, don’t understand why GUIs are so successful and dominant. Which is absolutely fine, as long as they don’t try think they are suddenly knowledgeable in usability, and have tried 10+ years of GUI only.
I’m not a fan of this approach. I think the idea that users should never touch a command line is an inherently proprietary philosophy. Without the command line, at any given moment, the user is fundamentally limited to whatever options the developer elected to offer.
I think a good GUI will assist a user in learning text configuration and command line functions.
What does a command line have to do with being proprietary?
I strongly disagree because users don’t WANT to learn or use a terminal and you can’t change their minds.
edit a system text file, which goes against the spirit
what?
No, nor should the user be encouraged to. Shell is often the best tool for the job for things like filesystem operations and scripting for a unix environment. Limiting yourself as a user just to copy Windows’ and MacOS’ paradigm is just hurting yourself in the long run.
The long run of… just using your PC without tinkering with it? Most people don’t want to mess with their OS, they want it to JUST WORK.
I would hardly call using the shell “tinkering”. It’s just a different interface.
Yeah, my mum isn’t going into the shell. She’s 65.
I don’t really like the idea of ‘beginner friendly’ like ‘you’ll get better and start doing it the real way’. It’s not some esport where it’s easy to play and hard to master, it’s a toolbox where it’s only job is to get out of the way of you accessing your tools.
Operating systems are middleware.
Most Windows and Mac users have no idea what a script is,nor do they care. That doesn’t mean they can’t benefit from moving over to a Linux distro, and never having to touch a terminal is entirely doable for common users in most distros.
Why are we trying to alienate people looking to drop proprietary BS by fearmongering?
If you’re on GNOME, KDE or any of the other DEs for that matter, and you’re not a geek, yes you can live on GUI alone these days.
Most Windows and Mac users have no idea what a script is,nor do they care.
Imagine how much easier their lives would be if they did (at least the MacOS users, since Windows has yet to find a usable shell).
If you’re on GNOME, KDE or any of the other DEs for that matter, and you’re not a geek, yes you can live on GUI alone these days.
Unless you have exactly 1 tech support issue, in which the assistant will tell you to open a terminal for diagnostics, because any other interface for debugging is insane. Telling users they shouldn’t learn shell is just setting them up for being dependent on users that do.
I agree that everyone using any Linux distro should be acquainted with terminal commands, I would never say they shouldn’t. However, most of the DEs do allow to use the computer over GUI exclusively. Things have improved dramatically for Linux, to the point that using anything else is more a PITA than any Linux distro.
As for being dependent on users that do know how to “CLI”, most of us started right there. Additionally, most users that migrate will eventually start trying the terminal, and we all know where that leads.
Is it possible to use Linux without the command line? Yes. Should you do it? Definitely not.
Am using Steam Deck as desktop replacement. I refuse to fuck with terminal, and have found a flatpack/GUI/web version of everything I want to do. I’m a 50yo nerd using PCs since the early 90s. I could probably learn linux command line stuff if I wanted to, but I want my machine to work for me, not the other way around.
Tell me, why should I not be doing this?
i still don’t understand why people are scared of command line when a lot of the fixes for windows bullshit require it in addition to registry editing, and also sometimes gpedit which is enterprise only now iirc.
Most users of Windows aren’t editing the registry, no matter what problems they encounter.
For power users that do use regedit, I’d argue there’s still a gap between that and using a shell. The registry can be edited entirely with the Windows graphical utility, after all.
Well yes, largely for the same reason people are driving around on bald tires, paper thin brake pads and three drops of oil in the sump. It’s because the education system has failed them in one way or another.
I have noticed two trends over time:
You’re increasingly likely to be told to edit the registry to customize a Windows machine. Back in the 98/ME/XP days, you just didn’t hear about the registry. You might have known it existed if you were some kid with your dad’s hand-me-down Pentium III HP Pavilion, but you NEVER touched it. Sometime around Windows 8 you started to see guides talking about “If you want to put it back to behaving like Win 7 did, just add this registry key.”
You are decreasingly likely to be told to open the terminal and run some arcane command to customize a Linux machine. GUI tools in distros designed for newcomers, casual users or gamers (things like Mint, Pop!_OS or Nobara) are increasingly complete and rely on users manually editing config files or running commands for fewer and fewer “typical” tasks.
They said “in addition to registry editing”.
The Registry Editor is a GUI that doesn’t rely on memorising commands. This is home territory for users. A tree to navigate, similar to a file manager is very familiar. Even the first time. Just give me the path. It is also easy to work out how to edit entries, and to revert changes. Sure, you might not like the looks of it. But it lies in the ‘normal’ world. Not in some strange world. People not into usability sometimes don’t get that.
most people I have dealt with can’t even get on the internet if the browser icon moves a few spaces over. regular settinngs menus are out of the question for them, let alone an extra program for settings with names that don’t reflect their purpose in a laymans eyes. On the other hand I have had pretty decent success telling people to press win+x, release the keys, press a or whatever for cmd/powershell then copy paste a one liner, assuming a cmd/powershell command is available for the issue. or making a registry file they can double click.
Sure there are some people who can’t do anything. But there are a large number of full time computer users not in IT who know their GUIs really well. These are candidates to switch to Linux.
If you give someone a text string to paste in, chances are they won’t be able to tell if it worked. They might need another command for that. And how can they undo that command? And the next time they need that command they’ll have to have stored that command string somewhere! Which is why it is better to show them the option in their application GUI, as the GUI will provide feedback on the status. And makes it obvious how to undo the change, and they know where to go next time. Otherwise they are dependent on you forever. Also, I doubt if there are any text commands for most things I do on a computer.
You don’t design a UI around the relatively few occasions when GUI help is too hard for some helper.
I’ve been using Linux as a desktop and server since 2015, before that I was Windows only from 1995. Regedit scares me.
Yes. You can bork your system via the registry. But only some parts of the registry are dangerous. Changing the mouse scrolling direction as I do, hasn’t given me issues so far.
Some of them throw up their hands and reinstall at the first sign of a problem. The rest get someone else to do the “hard” part for them, in my experience. They hand it over to the Unofficial Repair Person Paid in Beer and Pizza, who does the command-line stuff, registry editing, etc. Or they get an official repair person. Less than 10% of the Windows-using population does their own fixes.
Yup, I don’t understand it either. Many “how to fix …” articles involve quite a lot powershell magic. And I say “magic” because IMO they are often essentially API calls which I find far harder to grasp than config files that follow some logic and help me understand what is interacting how.
Why would you? The command line is the natural way of interacting with a computer. GUIs are just for convenience. What you’re asking is like „can there be a city where the public transport is so good that I never have to walk“.
And that’s a fact for every operating system, not only Linux.
The command line is the natural way of interacting with a computer.
N-natural?
Plus there are many, many, many, many use cases for a computer. Even the ones you don’t even think about, like bird sighting.
“The command line is the natural way of interacting with a computer.” It’s not natural at all for many people. Far from it.
English is the natural way of communicating with Americans. A lot of people don’t find that natural (because they don’t speak English), but that is their fault, not the Americans‘.
If a user speaks a different language, good usability knowledge will tell you, change the software to help the user. Not change the user to help the software. The software is only there to make things easier for people.
As I said for many people, the tasks they do are not always possible or not easy with the CLI. Try drawing a curve, try moving an object from bottom left to a position higher up to the right. Even navigating a tree structure, common in many apps, it’s easy to click on a chosen branch directly. Even with CLI options, more people, including CLI users, feel it’s natural to use a GUI app to do their email, manage files or browse the web. There is a lot of learnability built in. Discovering new things by accident is a natural benefit. And a big downside of the CLI. Which is not THE natural way at all.
So two people communicate, one is American speaking English and the other is a Natmurrikan, speaking their Natmurrikan language. The former communicates with the latter and the latter communicates with the former. So if they speak Natmurrikan and it doesn’t feel natural for the American, is that right that this is the American’s fault?
Its not possible to use windows to its fullest without the command line. You can muddle along and miss out without it but you will always hit a point where the cli is the best way forward.
Depends what you are doing on Windows. I’ve never needed the command line.
deleted by creator
I hate the “just use the terminal” internet advice. Sometimes it’s necessary, but it really shouldn’t be on modern GUI distros.
The problem is no one wants to make a GUI guide for Gnome, KDE, Cinnamon, Mate, XFCE, and so on and so forth.
deleted by creator
You are saying that they should make GUI’s. I thought we were talking about guides here?
