Party that supports multiple dictatorships pretends they don’t like fascism
If genocide is a red line for voting than every citizen who has voted within our life time would have crossed it. Our whole political system upholds genocide from local to presidential. A red line and acceptable are not actual synonyms like you are inferring. I do things I don’t find acceptable all the time because they are better than the other option and its less acceptable to allow the alternative to happen. I can have gencodie and fascism in america or just genocide. Neither is acceptable. One will happen whether I make a decision or not.
And at every other time of the political cycle they will be on and on about how they’re the only ones who really take the threat of fascism in this country seriously.
I mean, they claim that now, even as they say “It doesn’t matter if a literal fascist gets in power; support for anti-fascist coalitions is unforgivable!”
In the run-up to the 1932 German elections, the left-wing party was still calling the establishment-left party the “main” enemy, and fighting them in the streets and siphoning support away from them by running their own candidates in three-way elections that also included Hitler. A few years later, most of them were dead, since they were the very first of his targets, long before the Jews.
And the same pattern repeats today, with MLs calling everyone else ‘social fascists’ or like terms and crying “After
HitlerTrump, us!”, while playing the victim if they’re ever called out on it.The heroic SPD, who shoveled two million conscripts to their deaths in the pointless meat grinder of WWI (which killed 20 million, all told) and violently suppressed opposition to it in the name of “national unity.” Yes, I can see the resemblance.
By the way, the 1932 German Presidential election had three candidates: the nefarious communist candidate Ernst Thälmann, Adolf Hitler, and Paul von Hindenburg. The winner was not Hitler, it was Hindenburg, who then proceeded to appoint Hitler as chancellor. If only the KPD hadn’t split the vote between Hitler and the guy who would appoint Hitler, the guy who won anyway might have won and, uh, done exactly what he did, which is appoint Hitler chancellor and enable him to rise to power.
Obviously, the lesson to take away from this is that the people who tried to stop both world wars were on the wrong side of history, and the people who supported the guy who appointed Hitler chancellor in order to stop him from coming to power were right about everything and worthy of emulation.
Ah, yes, the heroic KPD, the mouthpiece of the Soviets, definitely just trying to stop the mean ol’ Nazis
Fucking astounding how far you’ll go to sympathize with fascists. But hey, after Hitler, you, right?
The KPD weren’t around when that was signed, on account of how Hitler murdered them. Because he correctly identified them as his chief ideological enemies.
As for the pact itself, it was signed after Stalin unsuccessfully attempted to form a unified front against Hitler with Britain and France. The latter two signed many agreements with Hitler, such as selling out Czechoslovakia, in the hope that he would stay focused on fighting the communists. Nobody was eager to get involved in a second world war.
Oh look, the tankie is back in this thread.
What can I say? I can’t resist the siren call of people being wrong on the internet.
Because he correctly identified them as his chief ideological enemies.
Curious, since their feuding with the SPD was instrumental in the rise of the Nazi Party, and that their puppetmasters cozied up to the Nazis at the first opportunity. Almost like it was just a power struggle with few actual ideological scruples involved.
Curious
It is curious. So curious, in fact, that your whole conspiracy collapses in the face of it.
since their feuding with the SPD was instrumental in the rise of the Nazi Party
It takes two to fued. Maybe the SPD should’ve tried not shoveling millions of people into a pointless war, or not killing KPD leaders who opposed it, or throwing their weight behind the only candidate who actually was neither Hitler or aligned with Hitler, or not saying the communists were just as bad as the fascists (you know, like you’re doing now).
The heroic SPD, who shoveled two million conscripts to their deaths in the pointless meat grinder of WWI (which killed 20 million, all told)
Yep, 100% accurate (and, a roughly-accurate analogy I think with modern Democrats doing insane things like supporting Israel)
and violently suppressed opposition to it
Er… which suppression are you talking about? I’m a little out of my depth on it but the only suppression I’m aware of came after the KPD started a violent rebellion against them. But like I say I’m not that well aware of it, can you tell me?
By the way, the 1932 German Presidential election had three candidates: the nefarious communist candidate Ernst Thälmann, Adolf Hitler, and Paul von Hindenburg. The winner was not Hitler, it was Hindenburg, who then proceeded to appoint Hitler as chancellor.
Once he won his 1932 term Hindenburg had Brüning as chancellor, then Papen, then Schleicher, amid a massive amount of infighting, and then after all that was Hitler. The vague picture I have is that infighting including but not limited to KPD vs. everyone else, strikes, street battles, and general chaos was a big part of what was making German politics nonfunctional and created the conditions where Hindenburg eventually had to work with Hitler.
Certainly the moderates in the Reichstag had to work with either the KPD or the Nazis, numerically, in order to get anything done, since none of those three factions had a majority. I’m out of my depth to say exactly how it played out or whose fault it all was. But I’m pretty confident in saying that “Hindenburg was secretly Hitler-friendly and got behind him instantly as soon as he was in office” is oversimplified, if that’s what you’re saying. For one thing, he’d been in office already for 7 years before that, and he had to die before the Nazis actually took over – it doesn’t seem to me like him in office was the key to Nazi takeover.
Would it have turned out different if it was 64% Hindenburg, instead of 51% Hindenburg and 13% Thälmann? And likewise with loyalties in the Reichstag? I’m sort of implying that it might have, but honestly I have no idea. And I likewise have no idea whose “fault” it was between the SPD and KPD that they were both pretty consistently at each other’s throats. I just know that part of the way it played out was rabid opposition to Hindenburg and the SPD from the left, rather than unification from them as the only alternative to Hitler, and that against that backdrop Hitler was able to make it work.
Obviously, the lesson to take away from this is that the people who tried to stop both world wars were on the wrong side of history, and the people who supported the guy who appointed Hitler chancellor in order to stop him from coming to power were right about everything and worthy of emulation.
I didn’t say they were on the wrong side of history, and I don’t think they were. I do think that their treatment of the SPD as “the real enemy”, and pursuit of “what we want in a perfect world” with no attention to “what’s the best outcome we can actually achieve” or “what will be the actual real outcome of chasing our perfect vision” is, in my opinion, part of what let Hitler come to power and got most of them killed a couple years later.
Er… which suppression are you talking about? I’m a little out of my depth on it but the only suppression I’m aware of came after the KPD started a violent rebellion against them. But like I say I’m not that well aware of it, can you tell me?
When a government gets millions of people killed for no reason, using violence against that government is completely justified.
And I likewise have no idea whose “fault” it was between the SPD and KPD that they were both pretty consistently at each other’s throats.
It was the SPD’s fault, for the whole, you know, “war that killed 20 million people” thing.
When a government gets millions of people killed for no reason, using violence against that government is completely justified.
Got it, I understand what you’re saying. Sure. Like I say, you’re not really wrong in this.
However, you could say, getting so bent out of shape when they use violence against you back against your rebellion that you’re still holding a grudge about it more than a decade later, even to the point of refusing to work with them against someone who’s going to get 75 million people (and nearly 100% of your particular political party) killed, seems shortsighted. That’s more my point than anything about “justified” or the right side of history.
Right, except that as established, the SPD were the ones who chose to back the guy who made Hitler chancellor. So it’s really more like, should they have backed the people who already got 20 million and a bunch of people from your party killed, so they can support the guy who’ll support the guy who’s going to get 75 million and virtually everyone in your party killed?
Your claim that Hindenburg winning by a wider margin could have possibly prevented Hitler’s rise to power is a counterfactual, even long after the fact, there’s no way to know if that’s true. I could just as easily say that the SDP could’ve thrown their weight behind Thälmann and that might have stopped Hitler, and maybe it would have, or maybe it wouldn’t. One way or another, the differences between the SDP and KPD were not one-sided, and those differences began over a disagreement where the SDP were clearly in the wrong and got millions of people killed for nothing.
You better watch out PugJesus, I just got accused of being a bot in another thread for having this point of view 😂
I’m used to tankie whinging about how they can’t support fascist regimes without being called out.
I hit em with the “maybe your views are just unpopular?” and have yet to see a response…
The response was probably “<admin> banned elliot_crane” from .ml + hexbear, and the ban conveniently didn’t federate to .world’s modlog
lmao I wouldn’t be surprised if that happened a long time ago… I’ve been calling out this shit for months.
It doesn’t matter. They don’t believe in democracy, much less convincing people. They’re vanguardist fascists, after all.
The MAGA had slowly coming into view *chefs kiss *
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We got one boys!
When there is not enough popular support for the “best party”, and revolutionary overthrow is non viable, then the “true mark of anti-fascism” is knowing when to vote for the least bad party and then continue campaigning and canvassing to pressure for better policy and candidates
Its disgusting and it feels terrible, but (speaking broadly) if the progressive voter base leaves the a country’s primary “left leaning” party, then the party will reach instead for center right voters to fill that gap, driving the party further right.
I won’t tell you prescriptively who to vote for, but please, give it some thought in good faith
I’ve never voted in an election where I wasn’t voting for policies I disagree with.
These kids need better civics education so they know we don’t get nice things in America.
Genocide as a policy you can respectfully disagree with
But you don’t have to!
The only illusion is that genocide was ever not an American policy. Talk to a Native American about it.
Wokely voting for the genocide guy
Trump or Biden, they will support Israel. At least I am sure Biden won’t drop a nuke.
Republicans say the dumbest shit ever, but it’s also incredibly stupid to believe that would actually happen. Nuking Gaza would mean fallout hitting Israel, it’s not something that would ever be approved.
Not really how nuclear weapon fallout works
Considering how close they are, yes it is. If you’re going to be pedantic, at least explain how I’m wrong. Regardless, Israel doesn’t want Palestine itself irradiated because they plan on stealing that land anyway.
That is literally why tactical nuclear weapons were invented.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_nuclear_weapon
And the president does not need approval to drop a nuke.
and where have they been used against people?
If you care about Palestinians as you claim, you should listen to them.
The Palestinians understand that however bad Biden may be, Trump would be worse. Those are the only two options that exist.
Which pro-Palestine group is endorsing Biden?
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We’re all in together to defeat fascism. We can tear each other apart over any differences we have after. 🤝
Rather than smugly shaming leftists who draw the line at genocide, you could instead spend your time pushing Biden to stop the slaughter, which would instantly win votes. It’s telling that you don’t 😉
iT’S TeLlInG ThAt yOu dOnT
What is it telling of exactly? Is this meant to imply that pug supports the Israeli campaign? That they’re also a genocidal madperson?
If you’ll humor me for a moment… What happens if progressives pull support for biden and he doesn’t change his position? What is the outcome of that scenario?
Given two ways to help Biden win the election:
- Pressure Biden to stop the genocide.
- Pressure people to support Biden even though he’ll continue the genocide.
When someone chooses 2) and not 1), it’s telling me that they’d rather see people accept Biden’s Zionist goals than see Biden accept popular will.
Except your option 1 people are rife with Trump loyalists, Russian propoganda, and naive fools.
Where’s the call to the GOP to stop voting to support Israel? Oddly silent on that side.
Said like someone who’s never been near an anti-Trump protest.
So, while in a perfect world, I agree with you… The current problem that exists is that opposite to Biden is Trump. And while Biden is currently engaging in a performance of seeing how quickly he can erase a red line after drawing it, Trump:
- Has on record stated that Israel must “finish the problem”
- Is the spearhead of the project 2025 plan
- Is also domestically terrible (to sum it up in one awful term… He’s hard-line “Anti-woke”)
Given the above, can you understand how, even though its a terrible, awful, disgusting decision to make, a lot of voters will want as many people as possible to still vote for Biden, despite acknowledging his terrible policy? How these voters understand what they are enabling, but they also understand that the alternative is the potential democratic collapse (project 2025) of the USA?
Edit: in addition to the above, what @[email protected] also stands as needing to be answered… Where is the mass outraged call for the right to (in a non-antisemitic way) support Palestine if elected? As far as I’m concerned, ive not seen a single call to action for that side.
In a perfect world there’d be genocide?
Again, just stand in solidarity with Palestinians. Listen to them, listen to their advocacy groups.
Thank you for totally failing to engage with anything I typed 👍
You said “Biden is the lesser evil” but it took you 3 paragraphs. If a voting strategy has led you to apologize for genocide, you need a new strategy. Listen to the people whose tents are being bombed. Listen to their advocacy groups.
Respectfully, I dont believe we’re going to shift each other’s views at a rate where it’s feasible to undertake this via a Lemmy thread. I will disengage from here, feel free to take this as a “win” if you’re the type of person to do that. I sincerely and genuinely wish you luck in your approach, I would love to be proven wrong.
Edit: typo
Another pro-Biden liberal trying to push leftists to vote for genocide. (They won’t, sorry)
Funny, last I checked the terminally online MLs were advocating letting Trump win and genocide flourish.
The genocide is flourishing right now, and the worst way to persuade a politician is to promise you’ll vote for them no matter what.
The worst way to stop a genocide is allowing a Muslim ban fan to ramp up the executions and also assist Russia against Ukraine.
But the Ukrainian genocide is None Of Our Business™, conveniently.
I didn’t realize America was sending spec ops, bombs, and our taxes to Russia.
Lesser-evil voting has led you to support an imagined “kinder, gentler genocide”. Seems a bad strategy.
Whatever helps you convince yourself you’re right in allowing Donald to genocide harder and in more countries.
When you were a kid learning about Nazis, did you ever imagine yourself begging people to vote for a guy actively carrying out a genocide?
Once again I ask these tankies, what is your suggestion come November? If the answer isn’t vote for Biden, you’re helping Trump. When you come back to reality, that’s just the simple truth.
When your middle school class gets to their unit on Nazis, perhaps you’ll discover why it is bad to assist the openly racist authoritarian demagogue who did a putsch, screeches “fake news” at everything, and wants SCOTUS to hand him a long knife.
Hell of an antifascist coalition that throws its weight behind a party and candidate funding and arming and denying a genocide.
In this shit universe you have to be pragmatic sometimes and pick the less fascist person to prevent even worse fascism. Nobody like it, but here we are.
Okay. When do you have to be pragmatic and draw a red line? Where is that red line?
There is no red line. Things change. Society and humanity isn’t static . what was acceptable in the past isn’t anymore and what is acceptable now was not in the past. I am not an absolutist.
You do what you think will functionally lead to the best possible outcome now.
Is that a roundabout way of saying that the genocide is acceptable to you now?
I’ve never seen someone claim moral relativism for that reason!
No.
Okay, now then would you say that genocide is your red line?
That red line exists in the same space as the red line that Biden has for Israel.
Vote for Hitler and start a antifa club! All the cool kids do it!
Just be sure to endorse Genocide while you antifa!
Every candidate supports genocide in either Ukraine or Gaza… except Bernie sort of.
Bernie supports Israel. He went mask off at the start of the Genocide.
He also supports Ukraine but with pretty strict funding strings attached
Another PugJesus post bashing leftists.
The only problem with the meme is he’s calling tankies leftists.
Tankies aren’t leftists.
Edit: cry more, tankies
There’s more then one problem: the Democrats that support a cease fire are not in frame because they’re not sitting at home watching Biden.
Actually I don’t think that is the problem with the post because it perfectly illustrates that many who bash tankies do so as a proxy to bash leftists. This is just a mask off moment.
Anyone who understands what tankies are, and doesn’t Bash them, is an idiot, a fascist, or both.
Except the term is being misused by bashers to simply bash the left. We know what the definition is, it’s just being misapplied, just like communist was a misapplied label.
You’re right about a term being misapplied, but you have it in reverse. The post is misapplying the word “leftist”, instead of using the word “tankie”. It’s not a mask off moment, because it’s not revealing a hidden truth. So the real question is: are you stupid or just dishonest?
They were thinking of leftists when they decided to go bashing, hence their mix-up.
For that to be true, they’d need to have observed a large contingent of leftists arguing that it’d be better for people to vote third party instead of for Biden. But what they’ve been seeing are tankies, who aren’t leftists. You’re mixing the word with the concept.
If I look at 🌸 and think “bird” and say “I love when birds fall from trees” I’m not saying that a 🐦 falling down dead is a thing that brings me joy.
But then again, maybe I shouldn’t expect you to understand, since you lot have trouble figuring out the difference between a word and the thing the word means. It’s a standard error of definitions.
Edit: to further the point, even if we consider the set we call “Leftists” to include what I call “tankies” there’s nothing wrong with the meme, because they’s criticizing a particular group doing a particular thing and I agree with the criticism. It doesn’t matter what words they uses because I agree with the base concepts they’s trying to convey. And that’s the part that matters. Fuck your word games.
Its all he does.
Apparently, bashies aren’t for fashies. Bashies are for us. 😭
If the ‘anti-trump coalition’ consists of people voting entirely to avoid a trump presidency, why does the coalition building only consist of capitulation to the views of the anti-trump republicans
Because a split on the left, in this case, guarantees a right win. You should, however fight for what you think is right on all days of the year, not just on election season.
This. What you can vote for in the election depends heavily on what happens between elections.
If “we have to vote trump out of office” is the platform and everything else is immaterial, why not run a more progressive campaign instead of trying to win the vote of people who won’t vote Dem again
Because biden is not progressive, and since votes on the left are not realy going to trump, he is trying to win votes at the “center-right”. To the risk of loosing some votes on the left, yes.
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I suppose we should protect your garbage views?
calling leftists fascists is the height of political illiteracy.
Political illiteracy accusations from someone who thinks that Trump didn’t try to stage an autocoup? Bold move.
i think if he wanted a coup he could have had one. what he actually wanted was some showmanship and what he got instead was an unruly crowd.
Funny how some vocal self-proclaimed leftists online (who are, of course, too PURE to ever participate in antifascist coalitions) and literal fascists both try to downplay Trump’s fascism.
i know what fascism is, and it’s what happens every day in congress between two fasces.
i know what fascism is, and it’s what happens every day in congress between two fasces.
“No fascist, no fascist; you’re the fascist!”
You even act like Trump. Unsurprising, considering I hear many of the same buzzwords too. Would you like to throw in a few 'lib’s and 'deep state’s to round it all out?
you can ignore the fasces on the wall of the house chamber, but i can’t. trying to pigeonhole me with your favorite boogeyman is lazy and transparent.
you can ignore the fasces on the wall of the house chamber,
I mean, you can ignore that the fasces pre-dates fascism and was originally a symbol of the authority of republics, as opposed to the authority of monarchs and aristocracies, but go off, I guess.
