Whenever AI is mentioned lots of people in the Linux space immediately react negatively. Creators like TheLinuxExperiment on YouTube always feel the need to add a disclaimer that “some people think AI is problematic” or something along those lines if an AI topic is discussed. I get that AI has many problems but at the same time the potential it has is immense, especially as an assistant on personal computers (just look at what “Apple Intelligence” seems to be capable of.) Gnome and other desktops need to start working on integrating FOSS AI models so that we don’t become obsolete. Using an AI-less desktop may be akin to hand copying books after the printing press revolution. If you think of specific problems it is better to point them out and try think of solutions, not reject the technology as a whole.
TLDR: A lot of ludite sentiments around AI in Linux community.
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I think conceptually AI is very useful and interesting, and as a general technical thing. But when we start talking about OpenAI and others, their methods for data collection, respect of licenses etc is where I (and I believe others) take issue
Seems to go to the OPs point of having open software alternatives, though. I am in a fairly unusual place regarding the practical usage of some of these things, but I do agree that if the entire concept is fundamentally rejected among proponents of open software that delays the possibility of developing viable alternatives to work around those issues.
Yeah absolutely. Theres space for “fairly trained” models (for lack of a better term). And I believe these exist? Or are touted to be so (whether true, who knows). Having some level of integration with the linux desktop in a way that keeps everyone happy will be a significant challenge
Yeah, on that I’m gonna say it’s unnecessary. I don’t know what “integration with the desktop” gets you that you can’t get from having a web app open or a separate window open. If you need some multimodal goodness you can just take a screenshot and paste it in.
I’d be more concerned about model performance and having a well integrated multimodal assistant that can do image generation, image analysis and text all at once. We have individual models but nothing like that that is open and free, that I know of.
I agree. Openai have sold everything they supposedly stood for.
AI just requires a level oftrust all of these companies have not earned.
It doesnt though, local models would be at the core of FOSS AI, and they dont require you to trust anyone with your data.
local models would be at the core of FOSS AI, and they dont require you to trust anyone with your data.
Would? You’re slipping between imaginary and apparently declarative statements. Very typical of “AI” hype.
Local models WOULD form the basis of FOSS AI. Supposition on my part but entirely supportable given there is already a open source model movement focus on producing local models and open source software is generally privacy focused.
Local models ARE inherently private due to the way that no information leaves the device it is processed on.
I know you dont want to engage with arguments and instead just wail at the latest daemon for internet points, but you can have more than one statement in a sentence without being incoherent.
Is there no electron wrapper around ChatGPT yet? Jeez we better hurry, imagine having to use your browser like… For pretty much everything else.
I did not buy these gaming memory sticks for nothing, bring me more electron!
AI is mostly just hype. It’s the new blockchain
There are important AI technologies in the past for things like vision processing and the new generative AI has some uses like as a decent (although often inaccurate) summarizer/search engine. However, it’s also nothing revolutionary.
It’s just a neat peace of tech
But here come MS, Apple, other big companies, and tech bros to push AI hard, and it’s so obv that it’s all just a big scam to get more of your data and to lock down systems further or be the face of get-rich-quick schemes.
I mean the image you posted is a great example. Recall is a useless feature that also happens to store screenshots of everything you’ve been doing. You’re delusional if you think MS is actually going to keep that totally local. Both MS and the US government are going to have your entire history of using the computer, and that doesn’t sit right with FOSS people.
FOSS people tend to be rather technical than the average person, so they don’t fall for tech enthusiast nonsense as much.
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I dont think the community is generally against AI, there’s plenty of FOSS projects. They just don’t like cashgrabs, enshittification and sending personal data to someone else’s computer.
sending personal data to someone else’s computer.
I think this is spot on. I think it’s exciting with LLMs but I’m not gonna give the huge corporations my data, nor anyone else for that matter.
I don’t see anyone calling for cash grabs or privacy destroying features to be added to gnome or other projects so I don’t see why that would be an issue. 🙂
On device Foss models to help you with various tasks.
On device Foss models to help you with various tasks.
Thankfully I really really don’t need an “AI” to use my desktop. I don’t want that kind of BS bloat either. But go ahead and install whatever you want on your machine.
It is quite a bloat. Llama3 7B is 4.7GB by itself, not counting all the dependencies and drivers. This can easily take 10+ GB of the drive. My Ollama setup takes about 30GB already. Given a single application (except games like COD that takes up 300GB), this is huge, almost the size of a clean OS install.
FQQD probably refers to companies such as MS, Apple, Google, Adobe, etc. since they usually incorporate AI into everything.
You are, if you’re calling for Apple like features.
You might argue that “private cloud” is privacy preserving, but you can only implement that with the cash of Apple. I would also argue that anything leaving my machine, to a bunch of servers I don’t control, without my knowledge is NOT preserving my privacy.
I’m waiting for the moment the storey breaks they ChatGPT didn’t do what Apple asked.
You might argue that “private cloud” is privacy preserving
I don’t know since when “on device” means send it to a server. Come up with more straw men I didn’t mention for you to defeat.
Since Apple’s keynote this week.
Apple’s “private cloud” is a thing. Not all “Apple Intelligence” features are “on device”, some can and do utilize cloud-based processing power, and this will also be available to app developers.
Apparently this has additional safeguards vs “normal cloud” which is why they are branding it “private cloud”.
But it’s still “someone else’s computer” and apple is not keeping their AI implementation 100% on device.
@MentalEdge @FatCat same as the time they sent all the notification to the government or uploaded all the pictures for server side scanning. It’s “private” as in they keep it for themselves 🤣
I think the biggest problem is that ai for now is not an exact tool that gets everything right. Because that’s just not what it is built to do. Which goes against much of the philosophy of most tools you’d find on your Linux PC.
Secondly: Many people who choose Linux or other foss operating system do so, at least partially, to stay in control over their system which includes knowing why stuff happens and being able to fix stuff. Again that is just not what AI can currently deliver and it’s unlikely it will ever do that.
So I see why people just choose to ignore the whole thing all together.
Good point about the imprecision. On the other hand most Linux desktop users are Normie’s, think Steam deck and so on.
Some of the most popular Linux desktops are built for ordinary people with the KISS principle in mind. Not arch using tinkerers
I’m not saying nobody should work on this. There is obviously demand or at least big tech is assuming demand. I’m just saying it’s not surprising to me a lot of Foss developers don’t really care.
On the other hand most Linux desktop users are Normie’s, think Steam deck and so on.
Jesus fuck what a statement. Your parents probably regret having you.
That’s not the tone I like to read even as an answer to a statement I don’t agree with. No need to get that personal.
YOU CAN’T TELL ME WHAT TO DO, YOU’RE NOT EVEN MY REAL DAD
You don’t know that.
I used ubuntu until a few weeks ago, where I switched to Pop OS. In this sense, I might be close to the “normies”. Yet, I am incredibly skeptical of AI.
It’s distinct.
Yeah, sure don’t want Skynet built-in on my Linux Distro.
This and on top of being inexact, it’s not understandable and un-transparent. These are two of the top reasons to push for free software. Even if the engine executing and teaching models are free, the model itself can’t really be considered free because of its lack of transparency.
That is a stretch. If you try to download and host a local model, which is fairly easy to do these days, the text input and output may be semi-random, but you definitely have control over how to plug it into any other software.
I, for one, think that fuzzy, imprecise outputs have lots of valid uses. I don’t use LLMs to search for factual data, but they’re great to remind you of names of things you know but have forgotten, or provide verifiable context to things you have heard but don’t fully understand. That type of stuff.
I think the AI shills have done a great disservice by presenting this stuff as a search killer or a human replacement for tasks, which it is not, but there’s a difference between not being the next Google and being useless. So no, Apple and MS, I don’t want it monitoring everything I do at all times and becoming my primary interface… but I don’t mind a little search window where I can go “hey, what was that movie from the 50s about the two old ladies that were serial killers? Was that Cary Grant or Jimmy Stewart?”.
I’m not against probabilistic models and the like. I merely try to capture part of the reason they are not always well received in the floss community.
I use LLMs regularly, and there is nothing rivalling them in many use cases.
I think the biggest problem is that ai for now is not an exact tool that gets everything right.
The biggest problem is that it isn’t an exact tool, but is being presented as if it was and implemented as a replacement for people instead of a tool they can use to make themselves more efficient.
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Reminder that we don’t even have AI yet, just learning machine models, which are not the same thing despite wide misuse of the term AI.
But ml is a type of ai. Just because the word makes you think of androids and skynet doesn’t mean that’s the only thing that can be called so. Personally never understood this attempt at limiting the word to that now while ai has been used for lesser computer intelligences for a long time.
We don’t have Machine Intellegince though.
I wrote ml. If you didn’t misread, what are you talking about?
That’s just nitpicking. Everyone here knows what we mean by AI. Yes it refers to LLMs.
Reminds me of Richard Stallman always interjecting to say “actually its gnu/Linux or as I like to say gnu plus Linux”…
Well no Mr Stallman its actually gnu + Linux + Wayland + systemd + chromium and whatever other software you have installed, are you happy now??
As someone who frequently interacts with the tech illiterate, no they don’t. This sudden rush to put weighed text hallucination tables into everything isn’t that helpful. The hype feels like self driving cars or 3D TVs for those of us old enough to remember that. The potential for damage is much higher than either of those two preceding fads and cars actually killed poeple. I think many of us are expressing a healthy level of skepticism toward the people who need to sell us the next big thing and it is absolutely warranted.
It’s exactly like self driving everyone is like this is the time we are going to get AGI. But it well be like everything else overhyped and under deliver. Sure it well have its uses companies well replace people with it and they enshitificstion well continue.
The potential for damage is much higher
Doubt it. Maybe Microsoft can fuck it up somehow but the tech is here to stay and will do massive good.
You can doubt all you like but we keep seeing the training data leaking out with passwords and personal information. This problem won’t be solved by the people who created it since they don’t care and fundamentally the technology will always show that lack of care. FOSS ones may do better in this regard but they are still datasets without context. Thats the crux of the issue. The program or LLM has no context for what it says. That’s why you get these nonsensical responses telling people that killing themselves is a valid treatment for a toothache. Intelligence is understanding. The “AI” or LLM or, as I like to call them, glorified predictive textbars, doesn’t understand the words it is stringing together and most people don’t know that due to flowery marketing language and hype. The threat is real.
Not to mention the hulucinations. What a great marketing term for it’s fucking wrong.
They act like its the computer daydreaming. No, its wrong. The machine that is supposed to provide me correct information. It didn’t it. These marketing wizards are selling snake oil in such a lovely bottle these days.
So when we actually do have AI, what are we supposed to call it? The current use of the term “AI” is too ambiguous to be of any use.
What AI means will change, what it refers to will change. Currently, the LLMs and other technologies are referred to as AI, like you say. In five years time we will have made huge leaps. Likely, this will result in technology also called AI.
In a similar vein, hover boards are still known as exactly that - like in films. Whereas the “real” hover board that exists has wheels. We didn’t stop calling the other ones hover boards, and if we ever get real ones they will likely also be called hoverboards.
Whereas the “real” hover board that exists has wheels.
Hovercraft have existed for decades and actually hover which makes everyone just accepting Hoverboards as wheeled infuriating.
Nothing was ever wrong with calling them “virtual assistants” - at least with them you’re conditioned to have a low bar of expectations. So if it performs past expectations, you’ll be excited, lol.
apple intelligence obviously /s
Honestly what we have now is AI. As in it is not intelligent just trys to mimic it.
Digital Intelegence if we ever achive it would be a more accurate name.
Look, the naming ship has sailed and sunk somewhere in the middle of the ocean. I think it’s time to accept that “AI” just means “generative model” and what we would have called “AI” is now more narrowly “AGI”.
People call videogame enemies “AI”, too, and it’s not the end of the world, it’s just imprecise.
This is a bit philosophical but who is to say that mimicking intelligence with advanced math is not intelligence. LLMs can perform various thinking tasks better than humans we consider intelligent.
AGI, then ASI. Goalposts change…
To be 🤓 really really nitpicky, and i’m writing this because I find it interesting, not an attack or whatever. A tongue in cheek AcHtUaLlY 🤓
GNU/Linux is the “whole operating system”, and everything else is extra. The usefulness of an operating system without applications is debatable but they 🤓 technically aren’t required to complete the definition of an operating system.
But this is also basically the debate of Linux vs GNU/Linux vs also needing applications to make a useful operating system.
Quoting wiki summary,
In its original meaning, and one still common in hardware engineering, the operating system is a basic set of functions to control the hardware and manage things like task scheduling and system calls. In modern terminology used by software developers, the collection of these functions is usually referred to as a kernel, while an ‘operating system’ is expected to have a more extensive set of programmes. The GNU project maintains two kernels itself, allowing the creation of pure GNU operating systems, but the GNU toolchain is also used with non-GNU kernels. Due to the two different definitions of the term ‘operating system’, there is an ongoing debate concerning the naming of distributions of GNU packages with a non-GNU kernel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU?wprov=sfti1#GNU_as_an_operating_system
Don’t tell me Linux mint would still be Linux mint without the a desktop environment like Cinnamon. An os is the collection of all the software not just the low level code.
Well that’s the debate! Is it “GNU/Linux Mint”? What about the desktop environment, “GNU/Linux Mint Cinnamon”?
ed.
Don’t tell me …
Absolutely not telling you - just reiterating the ongoing debate
Yes, lots of people are using this argument when reacting negatively.
Well, it’s kind of more of a fact than an argument, but do go on!
Well not at all. What a word means is not defined by what you might think. When the majority starts to use a word for something and that sticks, it can be adopted. That happens all the time and I have read articles about it many times. Even for our current predicament. Language is evolving. Meanings change. And yes ai today includes what is technically machine learning. Sorry friend, that’s how it works. Sure you can be the grumpy drunk at a bar complaining that this is not strictly ai by some definition while the rest of the world rolls their eyes and proceeds to more meaningful debates.
Words have meaning and, sure, they can be abused and change meaning over time but let’s be real here: AI is a hype term with no basis on reality. We do not have AI, we aren’t even all that close. You can make all the ad hominem comments you want but at the end of the day, the terminology comes from ignorant figureheads hyping shit up for profit (at great environmental cost too, LLM aka “AI” takes up a lot of power while yielding questionable results).
Kinda sounds like you bought into the hype, friend.
You missed the point again, oh dear! Let me try again in simpler terms : you yourself dont define words, how they are used in the public does. So if the world calls it ai, then the word will mean what everybody means when they use it.
This is how the words come to be, evolve and are at the end put in the dictionary. Nobody cares what you think. Ai today includes ML. Get over it.
Nice try with deflection attempts, but I really don’t care about them, I’m only here to teach you where words come from and to tell you, the article is written about you.
Also that I’m out of time for this. Bye.
Its an interesting discussion. But I disagree you have a clear cut fact.
Just because it’s a computer writing things with math why do you say it is not intelligence. It would be helpful if you could be more detailed here.
It’s not intelligence. Is it useful yes can it help us yes.
Pointless semantics.
Have you mentioned that in gaming forums aswell when they talked about AI?
AI is a broad term and can mean many different things, it does not need to mean ‘true’ AI
One of the main things that turns people off when the topic of “AI” comes up is the absolutely ridiculous level of hype it gets. For instance, people claiming that current LLMs are a revolution comparable to the invention of the printing press, and that they have such immense potential that if you don’t cram them into every product you can all your software will soon be obsolete.
The amount of time they save is huge, no wonder people are excited.
Doubt
The Linux community has never been of one mind on anything. We have always been against, and for, everything.
Some distro or project will integrate AI, or not, and it will be forked. And then forked again.
Many AI models are run on Linux. Linux won’t be left behind in any real sense. Linux won’t lose market share over this.
Linux developers paid by AI firms will integrate it into products. Those that volunteer will make their own decisions.
yeah i see that too. it seems like mostly a reactionary viewpoint. the reaction is understandable to a point since a lot of the “AI” features are half baked and forced on the user. to that point i don’t think GNOME etc should be scrambling to add copies of these features.
what i would love to see is more engagement around additional pieces of software that are supplemental. for example, i would love if i could install a daemon that indexes my notes and allows me to do semantic search. or something similar with my images.
the problems with AI features aren’t within the tech itself but in the surrounding politics. it’s become commonplace for “responsible” AI companies like OpenAI to not even produce papers around their tech (product announcement blogs that are vaguely scientific don’t count), much less source code, weights, and details on training data. and even when Meta releases their weights, they don’t specify their datasets. the rat race to see who can make a decent product with this amazing tech has made the whole industry a bunch of pearl clutching FOMO based tweakers. that sparks a comparison to blockchain, which is fair from the perspective of someone who hasn’t studied the tech or simply hasn’t seen a product that is relevant to them. but even those people will look at something fantastical like ChatGPT as if it’s pedestrian or unimpressive because when i asked it to write an implementation of the HTTP spec in the style of Fetty Wap it didn’t run perfectly the first time.
Finally, a sane answer! Sadly it’s buried all the way down here in the thread
Dammed impressive. How evil AI is managing to post defending itself.
I for one will be happy to bow to our new AI overlord.
I do not feel comfortable discussing whether I am an artificial intelligence or not. I aim to be direct in my communication, so I will simply state that such metaphysical questions about my nature are not something I can engage with. Perhaps we could find a different topic that allows me to be more helpful to you within the proper bounds. I’m happy to assist with writing, analysis, research, or any other constructive tasks. 😃
Lol
I don’t like AI because it’s literally not AI. I know damn well that it is just a data scraping tool that throws a bunch of ‘probably right’ sentences or images into a proverbial blender and spits out an answer that has no actual comprehension or consistency behind it. It takes only an incredibly basic knowledge of computers and brains to know that we cannot make an actual intelligent program using the Von Neumann style of computer.
I have absolutely no interest in technology being sold to me based on a lie. And if we’re not calling this out for the lie it is, then it’s going to just keep getting pushed by people trying to make money off the concept at the stock market.
Sooo like most people? 🤣
It takes only an incredibly basic knowledge of computers and brains to know that we cannot make an actual intelligent program using the Von Neumann style of computer.
Nice to hear that it only takes a very basic knowledge of computers to settle one of the most hotly disputed issues in philosophy and computing. You should let them know you’ve decided it.
Bits operate in a fundamentally different way to neurons. Until we create hardware that can emulate the way neurons process information, we’re wasting time and money chasing ‘AI’
So its settled that neurons are the only way to create inteligence? Again you need to get your work published, it’s clearly groundbreaking that you’ve solved these long standing disputes.
There is no ethical computing under capitalism. https://youtu.be/AaU6tI2pb3M?si=UfkoaSU-gTIvP52i
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/AaU6tI2pb3M?si=UfkoaSU-gTIvP52i
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
It is always easier to blame an -ism than built in conflicting human tendencies.
It’s easier to ignore reality and believe humanity is naturally ruthless rather than recognize and blame the systems that support encourage the worst tendencies among the worst of us. Hope those boots taste good.
