I was thinking about using graphene OS, but I’ve read some lemmy users dislike this OS due to perceived misleading advertising and the pixel 7a you’re supposed to install graphene on because it’s from google (an advertising company).
Another option would be lineage OS, but there is so much false information about this OS, namely compatible phones that simply don’t work with this OS and no support.
what works for you? I want a phone with no google, that doesn’t force me to use the manufacturer’s ecosystem and that won’t show the apps I don’t want or need (on an asus I own you cannot neither get rid nor hide bloatware)
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PureOS
Stuck on a relatively new Galaxy rn, but if I could install a custom ROM, it would be GNOME shell mobile
No OS is perfect, as you likely do have to use a proprietary modem and some proprietary apps, but CalyxOS works well for me on my Fairphone 4. I like the base install being as free as realistically possible on a modern Android phone, especially replacing Google apps with microG. Just don’t enable SafetyNet if you don’t want it to run (sandboxed) Google blobs. That API is deprecated anyways.
The experience is smooth, free and I get a repairable phone without having generative “”“AI”“” shoved down my throat. A win on all fronts in my opinion.
I use GrapheneOS. Can’t go back!
Ι use Murena’s e/OS, I like the iphone-likeness of it. It works.
@merompetehla
Such question I like to answer with this link from a security specislist.
privsec.dev/posts/Please check the category Android.
Graphene seems the best possible custom rom.
I use Lineageos because I got an old phone for free.a security specislist.
I like how you highlight one of my pet peeves there.
Docs like this should be living so they can be fixed.
@corsicanguppy
Could you elaborate what you mean with that?
I use Calyx on a Fairphone 4. It’s not totally degooglified, since it comes with MicroG which is used to connect to Google services. I use Aurora Store and a couple of original Google Apps like Gboard too (none of my Google apps can access the internet, since they’re behind the built-in firewall). It works well except call functionality which can be wonky and there’s the issue that a lot of apps from Play don’t work well with MicroG. I only use a small selection of Play apps though, so it doesn’t bother me too much.
What about banking appss?
I was about to answer this, but decided I didn’t want that information in public.
However, the bank I use, which is a largish one, has an app that I’ve installed with the aurora store without microg or google play services on divestos and it complains that it won’t work without gsf, but it works fine after clicking ok.
My banking apps work fine on Calyx.
Banking apps normally check for rooted phones as the thing they don’t like. Because pixels come with an unlocked bootloader, you don’t need to root the phone to install a custom ROM, and so banking apps are still okay.
Calyx comes with microg right?
Yes
This is what stops me from leaping to phone Foss.
I never bothered with banking apps. (Outside of the virtual debit card app from my bank. That one did install successfully. However, I never got try out in store because it deleted my virtual card after a few days and I didn’t care enough to set it up again.)
Depends on the bank’s app. I have CRDroid (LineageOS fork I think) and my local bank apps have either full support or no support for biometrics (everything else works).
Stock AOSP shipped on Pixel.
I’ve never tried it out but I want to install nethunter if I had a chance because it can run terminal emulators
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That’s literally what MicroG is for, though. Spoof the Play store and GSF, no data in or out. I think a good part of that “90%” you mention knows about that solution?
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I don’t imagine that many privacy-conscious people are using Google Meet!
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Surely you wouldn’t have to use it on your phone then, just on a desktop browser?
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Why would school or work require you to specifically use Google meet on the phone app? Surely you’d use a school computer or your work-provided laptop, never needing to have play services on your personal device.
I put lineageos on my old OnePlus, which had started to lag so much that even the password prompt would take a minute to register my key presses. The moment I put lineage on it, it started working as if it was new and finally had security updates for the first time in 2 or so years. I now use it as a backup device, and also as a webcam for my pc using scrcpy.
GrapheneOS is probably the best option out there.
As you said, it’s only for Pixels currently, because
- They are more secure than most other phones. They have some kind of chip built in that makes them superior. I don’t know the specifics, but other commentators might add some information if needed. Something with encryption if I remember correctly. The GrapheneOS team is a bit …picky… when it comes to security, and most other phones don’t reach their requirements for a secure device.
- Google is one major contributor to Android, and their phones are fine tuned to work perfectly with it. Other manufacturers’ phones feel less polished.
- It’s easier to maintain one line of devices that are very similar, instead of keeping hundred phones up to date and secure. Pixels are similar to iPhones, they get updated almost simultaneously and are similar. If you now add a phone from a different line, e.g. a Fairphone or Nothing Phone, things get more complicated. If you look at Calyx (more onto that later), the FP4 caused quite some headaches for the dev team.
Pixels are cheap(ish) for what you get, and I believe Google makes them so cheap because 99% of users don’t care which ROM/OS is installed. Those are the advertisment-cows that will get milked. If you buy a Pixel and install a custom ROM on it, they will loose money.
My experience with GrapheneOS has been great. My Pixel 5 hit EOL a while ago and still gets maintenance updates almost weekly.
Many security additions are overkill for me, but quite some make a lot of sense.I used CalyxOS for a year too, but now that I don’t get full updates anymore, I don’t feel safe anymore with it.
I think GrapheneOS is technically superior to Calyx, especially due to the sandboxing they do. MicroG has full root privileges and can do with your phone what it wants, while also breaking some apps due to missing dependencies. If you choose to enable Play Services on GrapheneOS, they are user level and heavily restricted, and only you decide how much access you want to give them.
Regarding Calyx, since they don’t limit themselves as much in terms of security, they also offer a ROM for the Fairphone. Maybe check that out too.
DivestOS also seems to be a good option. AFAIK it’s based on LineageOS and supports a lot of devices, while being more secure than LOS.
Regarding Linux phones, I don’t have any experience with them. I tried Phosh (Mobile Gnome) on an exhibition a while ago, and it felt great and interesting, but from what I’ve heard, they are nowhere as good as Android.
My personal ranking:
- GrapheneOS on a Pixel. Get an used/ refurbished device if you don’t want to support Google. Best price-performance ratio, great OS, and very good hardware (battery life, camera, etc.)
- CalyxOS on a Fairphobe. Modular device with good repairability. Nowhere near as good in terms of what you’ll get for your money. Better security than 95% of other phone ROMs, oh, and you can just swap your battery in seconds if you want that :D
- DivestOS on a random supported phone, e.g. a China device. Nowhere near as sustainable (short lived update support, no spare parts, etc.)
- Linux phone. Only a good option for a tinkering device right now imo.
Same here, I have an old Pixel 4a that still gets security updates from GrapheneOS. Banking apps and Amazon don’t seem to like it, but I don’t mind just doing those on my laptop anyway.
Banking apps and Amazon don’t seem to like it
Try going into the app’s settings and toggle Exploit protection compatibility mode. That let me use my banking apps that didn’t work before.
That worked for banking, thanks!
The pixel 4a is end-of-life. I recommend switching to something newer.
Oh yeah I know. It’s just one of those money/time things I’ll get around to eventually.
Android is so secure, I guess 60% of users use insecure EOL devices.
They will get Pegasus, okay. But only if they are targeted.
Also, as for reasoning for choosing a Pixel, Pixels are not really a product for Google but rather a device for Google employees to test things on but as a consequence can be sold as well. This makes them perfect for hacking
- Linux phone. Only a goof option for a tinkering device right now imo.
Honestly not sure if you mean “good” or actually meant “goof” there lol
Typo, sorry. Corrected. Thanks for letting me know.
DivestOS also has longer somewhat-support for Pixels. But GrapheneOS still ships some updates to my 4a so not sure about that
Great synopsis!
The cool thing about GrapheneOS: It provides basically all the comforts and usability as any Android (stock) ROM minus some compatibility issues with a portion of Google Apps and services (Google Pay doesn’t and probably will never work, for example) while providing state-of-the-art security and privacy if you choose to utilize those features. A modern Pixel with up-to-date GrapheneOS, configured the right way, is literally the most secure and private smartphone you can get today.
Crdroid with microg is what I use Getting rid of google services altogether is a huge mess. Its hard for me tbh. Lineages for microg (lineageos4microg) is also something that I wanna checkout. Grapheneos is fine only if you want to pay for it.
I like grapheneos, very close to stock android without google shit
- you got bonus settings like the sensors toggle
Lineage is kinda bad privacy and security wise, from the little I know its not fully degoogled
Lineage is kinda bad privacy and security wise, from the little I know its not fully degoogled
My understanding is kinda the opposite:
- GrapheneOS ships with a sandboxed, FOSS Google Play Services which can optionally do a bunch of Google things (use their APIs, login to Google etc.) plus they have some hosted services that can substitute Google services (like geolocation).
- LineageOS basically doesn’t ship with any Google Play style API/frameworks at all. It’s a pure AOSP experience. Any apps on F-Droid work but third party apps (like ones found on Google Play) are hit and miss. If you can just use F-Droid for all of your apps then LineageOS is probably a much more private and secure offering.
- LineageOS for microG is an unofficial fork of LineageOS which includes a FOSS Google Play Services compatibility layer, a bit like GrapheneOS. As far as I know it doesn’t have the same level of sandboxing as Sandboxed Google Play on GrapheneOS.
Both GrapheneOS and LineageOS publish monthly updates with upstream security patches for all supported devices.
Both GrapheneOS use network-provided DNS by default.
Apparently both GrapheneOS and LineageOS connect to connectivitytest.gstatic.com via http as a Captive Portal test by default,althoughh this was as of 2019-2020 and both might have changed since then.
GrapheneOS ships with a sandboxed, FOSS Google Play Services which can optionally do a bunch of Google things (use their APIs, login to Google etc.) plus they have some hosted services that can substitute Google services (like geolocation).
GrapheneOS doesn’t ship with any Google services by default. We do provide an easy and safe way to install the Google Play components if desired, they are run under the same sandbox and constraints as any other ordinary app you install. Because they expect privileged access that they don’t get on GrapheneOS, we add a compatibility layer that essentially teaches them to work under the normal circumstances that is the sandbox. If you don’t want them you don’t have to do anything, they are not present in that case.
LineageOS basically doesn’t ship with any Google Play style API/frameworks at all. It’s a pure AOSP experience. Any apps on F-Droid work but third party apps (like ones found on Google Play) are hit and miss. If you can just use F-Droid for all of your apps then LineageOS is probably a much more private and secure offering.
LineageOS does make connections to Google by default, as does AOSP. GrapheneOS changes those connections while LineageOS doesn’t. They can be viewed here:
https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm
Keep in mind, that table isn’t exhaustive. It lists the regular connections AOSP makes and how each OS handles them, but doesn’t include information on any additional connections that occur.
You can absolutely download apps from F-Droid on GrapheneOS, what makes you think you can’t, and how did you conclude that LineageOS is more private and secure?
Both GrapheneOS and LineageOS publish monthly updates with upstream security patches for all supported devices.
LineageOS is pretty commonly behind on updates. As an example, it seems that LineageOS 21 (based on Android 14 QPR1) came out in February of this year.
https://9to5google.com/2024/03/12/lineageos-21-review/
You cannot ship the full security patches without being on the latest version of Android, which is Android 14 QPR3 now. Of course, if the device is EOL, that’s doubtly the case, and no OS can fix that.
Apparently both GrapheneOS and LineageOS connect to connectivitytest.gstatic.com via http as a Captive Portal test by default,althoughh this was as of 2019-2020 and both might have changed since then.
I don’t know if this was the case in 2019, but it certainly isn’t the case now. On GrapheneOS, you have the choice of using the GrapheneOS server for the internet connectivity check, changing it to Google’s server or even disabling it altogether.
You can absolutely download apps from F-Droid on GrapheneOS, what makes you think you can’t, and how did you conclude that LineageOS is more private and secure?
I never said that GrapheneOS couldn’t download apps from F-Droid. I didn’t mention GrapheneOS being able to use F-Droid in my dot points but that was just an oversight, not intenttional.
GrapheneOS doesn’t ship with any Google services by default. We do provide an easy and safe way to install the Google Play components if desired, they are run under the same sandbox and constraints as any other ordinary app you install.
The problem with this is that so many apps use Google Play Services. If I didn’t want a phone that used Google, I wouldn’t use an OS that bent backwards to make it work.
The sandbox model is OK in theory, except when your bank app asks for permissions for microphone, camera, contacts and files, and refuses to start without them.
The app model is a bit broken IMO and GrapheneOS both enables and perpetuates it.
LineageOS is pretty commonly behind on updates. As an example, it seems that LineageOS 21 (based on Android 14 QPR1) came out in February of this year. You cannot ship the full security patches without being on the latest version of Android, which is Android 14 QPR3 now.
I might be being a bit naïve here, but Android 14 came out in October, 4 months prior to LOS 21, which is not particularly long. Android 13 is still supported by upstream. This sounds a bit like running RHEL or Debian vs bleeding edge Arch, no? It’s a common debate whether RHEL systems are constantly out of date, the counterargument being that vulnerabilities are often found in new software versions. Without real statistics about security vulnerabilities over time it’s difficult to make an informed decision about software version policies.
LineageOS does make connections to Google by default, as does AOSP. GrapheneOS changes those connections while LineageOS doesn’t.
That is excellent, I’m glad to hear GrapheneOS is changing some of the defaults to be a bit better.
The problem with this is that so many apps use Google Play Services. If I didn’t want a phone that used Google, I wouldn’t use an OS that bent backwards to make it work.
GrapheneOS doesn’t “bend backwards” to make apps relying on Play Services work. Sandboxed Google Play is highly compatible and all you need to do is install the apps, just like you would any other apps. The argument that since many apps require Google Play Services, you should use stock OS where they have privileged access rather than being sandboxed doesn’t make a lot of sense.
The sandbox model is OK in theory, except when your bank app asks for permissions for microphone, camera, contacts and files, and refuses to start without them.
The app model is a bit broken IMO and GrapheneOS both enables and perpetuates it.
Apps installed on operating systems that don’t have a sandbox and thus a permission model get access to straight up everything. Your scenario is exactly why GrapheneOS features contact and storage scopes; as an alternative to the regular permissions for more granular control. You can grant an app only a subset of contacts/files or nothing at all, the app won’t complain since on its end, everything’s been supposedly granted. There are more planned features to address other permissions in a similar way. Furthermore you could put it in its own little box via a secondary profile (you can have up to 32), and have that only run when you need it.
I might be being a bit naïve here, but Android 14 came out in October, 4 months prior to LOS 21, which is not particularly long. Android 13 is still supported by upstream. This sounds a bit like running RHEL or Debian vs bleeding edge Arch, no? It’s a common debate whether RHEL systems are constantly out of date, the counterargument being that vulnerabilities are often found in new software versions. Without real statistics about security vulnerabilities over time it’s difficult to make an informed decision about software version policies.
4 months without proper patches to known vulnerabilities is very long. Previous versions of Android aren’t properly supported; they only receive a subset of patches, not nearly everything. In fact, not even Android 14 is currently getting full patches. At the time of writing, for a device to be properly patched, it must be on Android 14 QPR3. It’s why we put great care in porting everything over as quickly as possible. You don’t have to make guesses about vulnerabilities, you can simply look at all of the known vulnerabilities that haven’t been patched yet, or will never be patched, in previous Android versions. It’s not a matter of “what if”, it’s what’s actually happening.
Most of this is right, but needs some things corrected.
LOS is kept up by individual maintainers of the devices, and so it can cover more of them. But that also means you expand your attack surface to lineage, maintainer, microg, etc. And that’s just on supported devices. Unofficial devices are even more wild-west, having much delayed releases, OS updates, security updates, everything.
Not only that, but Lineage requires that you unlock your bootloader and often have your phone rooted to be able to do everything. This introduces special points of insecurity and possible issues in the future.
GOS is from a single source, for a single line of phones, and uses a designed method to load cryptographically signed ROMs onto the device, and then validate updates using the same method. The Play Services are sandboxed and disabled by default, so you can just never use them if you want. Overall, this makes for a more cohesive device. One that is more private and more secure. Especially so, when you can buy a new Pixel device and have guaranteed updates for as long as Google will do so for the same device.
the play services are not installed by default*
Thank you, I missed that
